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  1. #1
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    DPS/Tank ratio problem

    I don't need to explain what the problem is. The obvious solution that a lot of people suggest is "roll a tank".
    Here's the thing: the problem is "built in" into the core game design. Here's why. Consider the "best case" scenario: all players are evenly spread among all available specs. What do we have?
    24 specs total. Out of 24, 3 are tank specs and 3 are heal specs. That leaves 18 DPS.

    So we have 6 DPS for each tank and heal. But the group size only requires 2 DPS per tank and healer. So even in the most balanced scenario we have 3 DPS for each spot. This is the best case scenario, in real situation the ratio would be a lot worse.

    Problems:
    1) Too many DPS specs. I don't seriously see why Scoundrel needs 2 dps specs and how to make the two different enough to justify their existence. Considering that scoundrel shares many skills with gunslinger, these two classes have FIVE whooping DPS specs with really small differences. Less skill trees also means less balancing required.
    2) Group size is too small. Increasing group size reduces competition dramatically.

    So lack of tanks and healers can't be blamed entirely on lack of players who want to play them.
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  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire themightysven's Avatar
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    isn't it 5 dps/1tank/1healer due to each class's crossover talent tree? (I have a mac and thus can't play yet so I could be wrong)
    not that they makes more than a trifling difference, maybe your dungeons should need 5 dps and be mini-raids
    Last edited by themightysven; 2012-01-28 at 01:20 AM. Reason: edit for misspelling
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  3. #3
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Except I haven't had a problem finding healers. Ever. Tanks maybe but healers have been fairly easy to come by.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    I don't need to explain what the problem is. The obvious solution that a lot of people suggest is "roll a tank".
    Here's the thing: the problem is "built in" into the core game design. Here's why. Consider the "best case" scenario: all players are evenly spread among all available specs. What do we have?
    24 specs total. Out of 24, 3 are tank specs and 3 are heal specs. That leaves 18 DPS.

    So we have 6 DPS for each tank and heal. But the group size only requires 2 DPS per tank and healer. So even in the most balanced scenario we have 3 DPS for each spot. This is the best case scenario, in real situation the ratio would be a lot worse.

    Problems:
    1) Too many DPS specs. I don't seriously see why Scoundrel needs 2 dps specs and how to make the two different enough to justify their existence. Considering that scoundrel shares many skills with gunslinger, these two classes have FIVE whooping DPS specs with really small differences. Less skill trees also means less balancing required.
    2) Group size is too small. Increasing group size reduces competition dramatically.

    So lack of tanks and healers can't be blamed entirely on lack of players who want to play them.
    Every mmo that's subscribed to the idea of the holy trinity has run into this problem. One of the roles will always be a limiting factor no matter how big or small the group size. It all comes down to a design flaw. That being said there's still alot of fun to be had within the holy trinity system if you can find a guild with members active at the same time you are, or build a large friends list.

  5. #5
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Your logic is flawed. You think everyone goes "I decide to be a Madness DpS Assasin" but what would it be if everyone just thinks like "I wanna be Assassin DpS". That way an even spread would have 3 tank roles, 3 healer roles, 8 DpS roles. Or a 1:1:2.5 ratio which is not that bad at all considering your usual group is 1:1:2. Once you get into ops you'll see 1:2:5 or something like that and see that the normal dungeon idea ain't that bad.

    Right now it's much more of a problem to find DpS than it is to find tanks and healers, at least on my server. Especially if you group with people that don't want to fight for their token (I don't wanna fight for the token either, my luck with RNG is abysmal so I'm not gonna add another 50% handicap).

  6. #6
    You have 4 classes with 2 advanced classes, so you have in total 8 classes where 3 can heal and 3 can tank , this leaves a whooping 2 that can't heal nor tank.
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  7. #7
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nye View Post
    Your logic is flawed. You think everyone goes "I decide to be a Madness DpS Assasin" but what would it be if everyone just thinks like "I wanna be Assassin DpS". That way an even spread would have 3 tank roles, 3 healer roles, 8 DpS roles. Or a 1:1:2.5 ratio which is not that bad at all considering your usual group is 1:1:2. Once you get into ops you'll see 1:2:5 or something like that and see that the normal dungeon idea ain't that bad.

    Right now it's much more of a problem to find DpS than it is to find tanks and healers, at least on my server. Especially if you group with people that don't want to fight for their token (I don't wanna fight for the token either, my luck with RNG is abysmal so I'm not gonna add another 50% handicap).
    I'm not saying that ratio is the only thing that's causing the problem, I'm saying that it contributes to it a lot. I know that if a player doesn't want to play a tank, you can't force him by reducing the amount of DPS specs. But, in it's core, the holy trinity spec system should attempt to address this issue at least for the best case scenario.

    By the way, what IS a crossover spec? Not sure I read about it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-27 at 08:38 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Alyssa View Post
    You have 4 classes with 2 advanced classes, so you have in total 8 classes where 3 can heal and 3 can tank , this leaves a whooping 2 that can't heal nor tank.
    The problem is in the number of talent trees, not classes. If someone is specced DPS, it's highly unlikely that he will switch to tanking, because it requires different set of skills and different set of gear.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    The problem is in the number of talent trees, not classes. If someone is specced DPS, it's highly unlikely that he will switch to tanking, because it requires different set of skills and different set of gear.
    I carry dual sets of gear, hell even triple due to PvE and PvP dps sets, several people in my guild does the same. Respecing isn't hard and most people that are able to tank and heal that I know of isn't against doing so if called for.

    At the end of the day players that want to only DPS will only play as DPS no matter how few or many variations of DPS spec there is, dual spec will help once they get that in as it removes the inconvenience with respecing.
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  9. #9
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    ]

    The problem is in the number of talent trees, not classes. If someone is specced DPS, it's highly unlikely that he will switch to tanking, because it requires different set of skills and different set of gear.
    That's not true at all. That happens all the time. SWTOR could make this process alot easier I agree but to say its unlikely is completely false. It happens all the time in these games, most especially in warcraft. It happens in SWTOR as well.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    I don't need to explain what the problem is. The obvious solution that a lot of people suggest is "roll a tank".
    Here's the thing: the problem is "built in" into the core game design. Here's why. Consider the "best case" scenario: all players are evenly spread among all available specs. What do we have?
    24 specs total. Out of 24, 3 are tank specs and 3 are heal specs. That leaves 18 DPS.

    So we have 6 DPS for each tank and heal. But the group size only requires 2 DPS per tank and healer. So even in the most balanced scenario we have 3 DPS for each spot. This is the best case scenario, in real situation the ratio would be a lot worse.

    Problems:
    1) Too many DPS specs. I don't seriously see why Scoundrel needs 2 dps specs and how to make the two different enough to justify their existence. Considering that scoundrel shares many skills with gunslinger, these two classes have FIVE whooping DPS specs with really small differences. Less skill trees also means less balancing required.
    2) Group size is too small. Increasing group size reduces competition dramatically.

    So lack of tanks and healers can't be blamed entirely on lack of players who want to play them.
    Only one issue with your argument exception: When you tank constantly in 5 mans you see trends: seeing Druids with two dps feral specs(or a feral dps and a boomkin), paladins with two ret specs, or how EVERY group I tank has a dps war or DK with no tank spec(sometimes both).

    Because of the vast anecdotal evidence I have collected over the last few years, I do feel it is general laziness, not game design.

  11. #11
    Moderator Nyanmaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    I'm not saying that ratio is the only thing that's causing the problem, I'm saying that it contributes to it a lot. I know that if a player doesn't want to play a tank, you can't force him by reducing the amount of DPS specs. But, in it's core, the holy trinity spec system should attempt to address this issue at least for the best case scenario.

    By the way, what IS a crossover spec? Not sure I read about it.
    The issue got addressed for the best case scenario. Think "roles" not "talent trees". With an even distribution to roles per AC it's all fine. There could be 50 DpS trees, 1 tank tree, 1 heal tree and the population would be the same. People that want to play tank, will play tank, people that want to heal will heal and people who don't want any of the two will never do them. Same is true if there were 5 DpS trees, 50 tank trees, 50 heal trees, it would still be the same it is now. It's not about the game, it's about what the community decides to be.

    About the crossover thing, I guess that just got a bit mixed up: Check e.g. Assassins for the Madness Tree, it's there for Sins and Inqs alike (not 1:1 talent copy but very similar). It's less crossover, it's more a shared tree.

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  12. #12
    Field Marshal Stormfist_NL's Avatar
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    Except an Infiltration Shadow is better than a Balance Shadow in a PvE-FP/Ops enviroment, so the Balance Shadow spec is nullified. Since the DPS specs dont offer anything of any benefit to fellow groupers, you can disregard any marginally bad dps spec. That leaves;

    T/BH: H/D, D/T
    S/IA: H/D, D
    JK/SW: T/D, D
    JC/SI: T/D, D/H

    Or 3 healers, 3 tanks & 8 dps. 2 DPS can slack and you've got 3 full groups. It's not that bad, except that not enough people CHOOSE to heal or tank... so be it, we gotta deal with it as best we can.

  13. #13
    I dont know why everyone rips on Balance Shadows, they can do some crazy good damage O.o


    Any class I have that can tank has tanked at some point levelling up.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Except I haven't had a problem finding healers. Ever. Tanks maybe but healers have been fairly easy to come by.
    As a tank I have quite the opposite problem


    Is Elara capable of healing a FP? Say cadimemu? She is up to snuff with her gear btw.

  15. #15
    I find that leveling up, finding healers is a lot harder. But once you hit 50, I've never seen a tank LFG more than once in General, while I sometimes see healers LFG for quite awhile.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sumatran View Post
    Is Elara capable of healing a FP? Say cadimemu? She is up to snuff with her gear btw.
    The early flashpoints are easily tanked or healed by a companion or anyone without a tank or a healer spec if their character can actually put on a tanking stance or cast some healing spells. The main problem is bosses that have aoes and companions tend to die on them as they don't have an AI for moving away from fire but the healing output is perfectly fine if you're careful on the pulls, especially if you have a proper tank.

    It starts mattering more once you reach the 30-40 flashpoints and for the level 50 FPs you definitely want a proper tank and a healer. I've run through hardmode Black Talon with a companion healer but I definitely won't recommend that...

    At level 50 you'll find it much easier to find a healer though. They made leveling in healer and tank specs possible but leveling in healing spec is still incredibly boring for some classes. Tank specs are mostly fine so you see more tanks than healers when leveling but it reverses at level 50. Think of it this way, very few people level in healing spec and swap to DPS at 50 but a lot of people level in DPS spec and swap to healing at level 50.

  17. #17
    Stood in the Fire Rife's Avatar
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    Finding good tanks is the hardest part. There are plenty of mediocre tanks out there though. I've run a few dozen flashpoints on the way to 50 and found one that was good. Hoping this changes drastically at 50.

    I think it mostly comes down to having to use your abilities wisely and planning a few GCD's ahead combined with a less than stellar UI. Most tanks freak out or simply dont try to tank properly and let the healer (me) pick up the slack by keeping the DPS up as much as the tank.

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  18. #18
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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  19. #19
    Mechagnome gualdhar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormfist_NL View Post
    Except an Infiltration Shadow is better than a Balance Shadow in a PvE-FP/Ops enviroment, so the Balance Shadow spec is nullified.
    As a DPS Shadow I do a metric shit tonne more damage as Balance than Infiltration, with better range. Sure ramp up time for sustained damage is longer, and spike isn't quite as high, but that doesn't mean I get outclassed by an infil spec. Single-target is better, dual-target is better (especially with Force in Balance and Sever Force), and I can save up some force if I need burst for adds. Your statement is just wrong.

    Back on topic, switching specs isn't bad, but gearing them is, especially for tanks where tank gear is wildly different from dps gear. At least healers can get away with using dps gear in a pinch. Sage/Sorc healers and dps tend to use the same secondary stats, and I assume other healer ACs do too.
    Last edited by gualdhar; 2012-01-28 at 08:45 AM.
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  20. #20
    Just saying I would play tank alot more, but after a couple days I'm at 100k respec fee.

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