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  1. #21
    Eldarc:
    You are casting to few mindblasts during your SF.
    Your SF will, without BL, hit 10 times giving a total of 10 procs to play with (rng from SAs not taken in consideration).
    Following your rotation during the SFs while counting MB/SF ratio:
    5x MS
    1x MB (first MB with 3 orbs)
    4x MS
    Normal rotation.

    Looking at this you'll gain _one_ mind blast with three orbs up during a 15sec window, that's aweful.
    If you manage to get a MB with three orbs after the last 4 MS' you have a few explanations:
    1. You've munched one of the Mind spikes and thus casting a worthless mind spiek that owuld have done less damage than a normal mindflay (2 tics).
    2. You've proced a SAs right after the 4th MS cast and that's just to rng depandant to rely on.

    Looking at Worshakas rotation he'll get the following:

    3xms
    0.66 to 1.33 MF (depending on haste).
    1x MB (with 3 orbs).
    4xMS
    0.66 to 1.33 MF (depending on haste)-(you don't want to spend time to recast dots during AA).
    1x MB with three orbs.

    Comparing with mine rotation:

    3x MS
    0.66 to 1.33 MF (depending on haste).
    1x MB (With 3 orbs).
    3x MS
    0.66 to 1.33 MF (depending on haste).
    1x MB (with 3 orbs)

    My rotation leaves you with an aditional 3 orbs that you will use 6 secconds later when MB comes of cooldown. I usually spend this time reaplying dots or casting an aditional MF depending on the duration left on AA and the bossfight.

    Eldarc:
    2xMB if you have the haste enough to munch one or two MS', otherwise only one. (All MB during AA).
    Worshaka:
    2xMB with 3 orbs, always. (All MB during AA).
    My rotation:
    3xMB with 3 orbs (2 MB during AA, one after).

    I've been testing about with this rotation prety much and I've tried the most becoming pretty sure that "my" rotation (Pretty sure I can't call it mine even though I found it myself, those theorycrafters be faster). is very strong compared to others with the maximised security regarding muching.
    You want to use pot with AA (we all start by MF's (If ev stacks is needed)-> AA -> MB -> SF).

    I have 3211 haste + DI and I can usually pull of 1.33 MFs before casting my MB. If I need more than one global CD to move I do it during the MF+instant MB skipping the MFs.

  2. #22
    I do like Worshakas except I do 4MS the second time, and I still have 3 orbs at the end.

    3x MS
    2tick MF
    MB
    4x MS
    1-2tick MF
    MB

    Basically like eErike except with an additional MS. I still end up with 3 orb ready for the next MB, and 5 stack of evangelism.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    Eldarc:
    You are casting to few mindblasts during your SF.
    Sorry, I missunderstand you or I think you are wrong. I cast 3 full orbed MB in every SF. You can watch it in the video I shared some posts above.

    Prepotion
    2 clipped MF
    SF+AA
    MB (3 orbs)
    5xMS (4 of them have 3 orbs)
    clipped MF
    MB (3 orbs)
    4xMS (3 of them have 3 orbs)
    clipped MF
    MB (3orbs)
    AA ends here
    Dots
    Prepotion ends here
    Last edited by Eldarc; 2012-02-03 at 12:21 AM.

  4. #24
    Yeah I'm a bit confused on how mine differs from eErike other than 1 less MS cast? I cast 7 MS and 2 MB during the MS phase, but I still have a 3rd MB with 3 orbs afterwards.

    So I'm not sure how you conclude I only get 2 MB with 3 guaranteed orbs. Considering the MB CD is fixed (cast time aside), whether I MSx4 or MSx3 won't change the fact I can MB(3) afterwards. The only way that I can muck that up is by casting too many MS and delaying the 2nd MB cast so it uses the last application of orbs. However I don't do this.

    So the problem with your rotation is you are wasting a 3 orb application. You cast MS a total of 6 times and MB a total of 3 times, that means 1 orb proc is going to waste somewhere.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-03 at 11:44 AM ----------

    As for Eldarc, as I've explained by casting MS 9 times, it means one of 2 outcomes MUST occur:

    a) 2 of the MS casts do not have any orbs applied.
    b) 1 or more MB's don't have orbs applied.

    What occurs depends on whether MB is delayed or not. As Eldarac has pointed out, the way he is casting is resuling in two MS not having any orbs applied. And throught what I percieve is some stubborness won't accpet that if he traded that extra cast time (haste) into mastery he would get more damage. Being able to cast 2 extra MS in that phase with no orbs applied is just wasteful. And not making use of our extra orb procs outside of our MS/MB phase is equally wasteful. The distribution of MB(1), MB(2) & MB(3) used to be uniform. Now it's skewed massively towards MB(3), to quote Kilee from a post on howtopriest.

    Without T13 4pc
    MB0 - 6, MB1 - 13, MB2 - 14, MB3 - 17.

    With T13 4pc
    MB0 - 3, MB1 - 4, MB2 - 5, MB3 - 38

    If you add up the number of orbs used this gives us an idea of how many of the extra orb procs result in effective damage. With 4pc (128) less without 4pc (92) = 36. For each 1% of haste converted into mastery you will increase the damage of your MB and nominal damage of your DoTs by ~0.92%.

    As haste basically affects DoT damage in a linear fashion (remember we still keep the VT+2 haste plataeu), losing 1% haste reduces their damage by 1%. However we increase their nominal damage by 0.92% so the net effect is losing out on ~0.08%.

    Doing some spreadsheet calcs I determined that the amount of MB damage you will gain is dependant on your current level of mastery. Assuming you have 1000 rating currently you will gain ~1.58% total MB damage per 1% haste conversion to mastery. If you have less than 1k mastery you get more benefit, if you have more than 1K mastery you get less benefit. From a range of 0 mastery to 3k the benefit is between ~1.88% to ~1.21%.

    Our damage source distribution shows that DoTs make up ~70% and MB ~16%. Using the above figures it means mastery will increase our damage by 0.16 * 0.0158 = 0.025% while we would lose out on 0.70 * 0.008 = 0.0056. So I would estimate that you would gain ~1.94% damage for every point converted. At 30K DPS thats about ~580 DPS gain...

    Of course this is completely disregarding the MB/MS phase but I already showed earlier how I estimated that to be 22K ahead over the period. Using it 3 times over a 5min encounter = 66K damage = 220 dps.

    So again these are rough estimates but I believe mastery to be 800 DPS better per point 1% of haste converted to mastery (above VT+2).

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-03 at 11:45 AM ----------

    When I'm home next I'll see if I can quantify my thoughts on simcraft by running a profile with 1% more haste that has been converted from mastery and post the results.

  5. #25
    Good discussion so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarc View Post
    In almost every DS encounter we can multidot and in those cases i think Haste gains importance.
    One question I have is that I thought mastery > haste for multi-dotting situations as long as you are just above a haste plateau? This is because being just above a haste plateau, makes your VT durations longer, which is desirable for multi-dotting since you have to refresh those less. Furthermore, mastery buffs your DOTs too (increases the empowered shadow bonus) so the effect is multiplied when multi-dotting.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    At 3,2k haste I can fit in 3x MS and one MF before I cast my mind blast, how much haste do you have?
    It might be because his 1st MB is not instant cast which would allow for 1-2 more MS before the CD is up for the 2nd.

    This is assuming you are setting up the 1st MB with 2 MS before SF/AA.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldarc View Post
    Sorry, I missunderstand you or I think you are wrong. I cast 3 full orbed MB in every SF. You can watch it in the video I shared some posts above.
    *SF rotation*
    That is not the rotation you mentioned before and the one I've calculated your SF from.
    Not to mention that you still are casting Mind spikes that have no orbs which will be lower dps than a normal mind flay.

    Worshaka:
    I've tried your rotation as I thought it would be the very best to but I can't seem to get my last mindblast not to eat the 10th proc from SF. This is probably something due to reaction times and MS as it's a very tight race.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-03 at 07:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Solia View Post
    It might be because his 1st MB is not instant cast which would allow for 1-2 more MS before the CD is up for the 2nd.

    This is assuming you are setting up the 1st MB with 2 MS before SF/AA.
    Not realy sure what you are refering to here.
    Casting a mind blast will never affect your GCD more than an instant one as both the cast and the GCD are a basic 1.5s.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Evrx View Post
    Good discussion so far.



    One question I have is that I thought mastery > haste for multi-dotting situations as long as you are just above a haste plateau? This is because being just above a haste plateau, makes your VT durations longer, which is desirable for multi-dotting since you have to refresh those less. Furthermore, mastery buffs your DOTs too (increases the empowered shadow bonus) so the effect is multiplied when multi-dotting.
    i
    I could formulate your hypothesis with crit: Crit improves your dots too. Then is it safe to say that it's better to stack crit ionce we have reached one haste plateau instead of mastery and haste?

    I'm not a theorycrafter and I haven't numbers to support my thoughts except my simcrafts without any new actionlist that tell me haste is my best secondary stat, what makes me think haste improves dots better than crit and mastery. And if I run a simcraft with a new actionlist simulating our own new rotation it says mastery is our best secondary stat, what makes me think mastery improves MS and MB better than haste and crit. I'm not asking you to trust me since I know I could be wrong at all. I'm just sharing my thoughts and impressions :P

  9. #29
    Instant MB starts your MB CD at the beginning of the GCD, whereas a casted MB starts the CD at the end of cast.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Solia View Post
    Instant MB starts your MB CD at the beginning of the GCD, whereas a casted MB starts the CD at the end of cast.
    Ah, yes, didn't think of that, however both of us casts our first MB

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