Incinerate vs. Shadow Bolt (Demo)

[Holytravie]

Alright, so after looking at countless logs of countless warlocks, I've seen many mixed things with shadow bolt and incinerate. I saw a post when 4.3 came out about all the math, with shadow bolt costing less mana, so less life taps, so you get an extra GCD, however does anyone have any explanation for why incinerate is better or worse than shadowbolt as the filler? Any help appreciated!

[Killbarney]

From what I understand, the Incinerate filler spec does actually pull more dps, but only on like Ultraxion (and even then it's not that much more). The Incinerate spec is meant for a fight where you will only need to apply Immolate once (aka, Ultraxion), but once you need to apply Immolate on multiple targets, or have to refresh it for some reason, the Shadowbolt spec is better.

Not a great explanation I know, but just keep in mind: Incinerate Spec = Ultraxion style bosses, Shadowbolt Spec = Any other type of fight.

Edit: Had a derp moment and only really talked about the specs...too lazy to actually think about why Shadowbolt is better than Incinerate on the common used spec, but trust me, it just is XD

[gracfuldeath]

Just to further explain what Killbarney mentioned, the incinerate spec (3/31/7 with incinerate as the filler) was an Elitist Jerks spec designed out of BiS gear setup in attempts to push our a few hundred extra dps on Patchwork style fights. Three things you need to take from this are that: A) patchwork style fight, meaning it is only valid on Ultraxion B) It was created using BiS gear, meaning is DOES NOT mean a dps increase for all gear levels C) Because it is one fight only, and very specific gear setup, it is always a sim before use spec.


As for what the OP said, the only mixed things you are seeing in terms of the 0/31/10 spec (shadowbolt spec) on the filler is people asking if we're sure Shadowbolt is our filler and not incinerate, which is a very sure thing. You explained a large part of why yourself, shadow bolt costs less, leads to less life taps, leads to more GCDs. More GCDs means more casting damage spells, more casting damage spells means more damage done (assumine you're casting the right damage spells :P ). The other part I believe is that Shadowbolt scales better with our spellpower than incinerate. So for the most common and most used and original Demo spec, 0/31/10, Shadowbolt is used as the filler. Hence why it is called the shadowbolt spec.

[The Distortion]

Been using the incinirate filler for a long time alrdy now,, I guess shadowbolt filler is doing way better as I read =\ ..

[guanqi]

I wonder of trinket choices effect the spec performance. I.E will a MWC set up where its meta every 2 min compared to any other trinket set up with meta on CD favour one spec over the other?

[gracfuldeath]

I wonder of trinket choices effect the spec performance. I.E will a MWC set up where its meta every 2 min compared to any other trinket set up with meta on CD favour one spec over the other?

In my personal simming of the specs, the trinket choices made every final decision. MWC w/ pet swapping w/ incin spec lost every single time to the SB spec.

[Blinus]

I like the 3/31/7 spec better than 0/31/10 spec.

The damage/dps lost from 0/31/10 on multi-dot fights is super low. MWC and pet swapping is a huge turn off for me while dpsing. Does pet swapping sim higher than no pet swapping. Yes it does, but that doesn't make it right for everyone and me. Play the way you feel is best for you. I even geared my Warlock away from pet swapping so i could go 3/31/7. I use 3/31/7 on every fight in DS.

PS... Simming is 100% robot perfect and no fight is like patchy this time around.

[gracfuldeath]

Yes Simming is 100% robot perfect, so if a robot can't make it into a dps increase, then neither than you. The incinerate spec is only valid on patchwork fights anyways, and even if it wasn't, there are ways to add in movement of various degrees in simcraft.

The ONLY reason this spec even came about was EJ guys trying to pump any slight ounce of dps in BiS gear, I believe it's only +400 from what I've heard. The loss from it on multi target fights are much more than super low. If you have to recast immolate once, you're already lost most of what you were trying to gain with that spec, let alone recasting it 3,4,5.. times for adds.

Pet swapping is a whole different issue. Personally I'm sick of it (even changed MS to avoid it) and when I do go demo in either, I don't do it. The difference in talenting into Demonic Aegis or Master Summoner or Aura of Foreboding are personal choices on what you feel is best for you. This is not true for the differences in the SB and Incin specs. The Incin spec would never even exist if it weren't for the fact that someone got bored simming the same demo setup and tried something new and it just happened to be a slight increase for perfect situations.

EDIT: Also when you say the dps lost is super low for multidot fights, you're assuming that you have a dps increase to begin with when using the incin spec.

---------- Post added 2012-01-30 at 09:45 AM ----------

This was also a "which is better" question, not a "which do you like better" question. And currently in WoW until 5.0 when Blizz attempts to remove and many ways of making cookie cutter specs, there is a correct answer to the first.

[The Distortion]

So as I read - the only boss you will see a DPS increase would be on Ultraxion ? But for the rest it will all be lower and a increase if u use the SB spec ?

I'm also a Pet swapper btw.

And my trinkets are atm DMC:V - WoU. Kinda hoping to replace the DMV:V with CoC, but it just doesn't want to drop yet :P

[Jessicka]

You shouldn't be pet swapping after the initial pull unless you're using MWC.

[gracfuldeath]

So as I read - the only boss you will see a DPS increase would be on Ultraxion ? But for the rest it will all be lower and a increase if u use the SB spec ?

I'm also a Pet swapper btw.

And my trinkets are atm DMC:V - WoU. Kinda hoping to replace the DMV:V with CoC, but it just doesn't want to drop yet :P

Normal Warlord Zon too, but yea, normal. Definitely not heroic, unless you don't damage to adds which as a range...adds are your focus. The basis for it is Patchwork style fights, meaning one target (the boss), and minimal movement if any. Morchock is one target, but lots of moving in HM. Yor, lots of adds and moving. Hagara, ice crystals and moving and Hagara is immune in other phases. etc.

And as Jessicka said, you don't pet swap after the initial pull unless you're using MWC.

[The Distortion]

Ah ok - more clear now. Will try the shadowbolt spec out again and see how it goes for me and will keep only felhunter up from now on :P

Thanks for the comments

[Blinus]

Every fight on World of Logs 25 man heroic mode DS has a 3/31/7 spec has number 1 spot. Food for thought

[gracfuldeath]

Every fight on World of Logs 25 man heroic mode DS has a 3/31/7 spec has number 1 spot. Food for thought

Oh really? You know most of those are probably getting pretty close to BiS, which is what that spec was designed in right? Well I armoried/WoL'ed each of them. The #1 Morchok lock is in full BiS gear minus the heroic versions of his wand and WoU. The incin spec was DESIGNED for BiS gear, so of course it can out perform on other fights. On Zon'zz, the lock did no damage to the tentacles other than the claw, meaning he was to sit and nuke zon with meta while doing some side damage to the claw, making the fight much closer to patchwork style. On Yor, the lock again was told to sit still on Yor and nuke, and he did HEAVY aoe damage with a lot thanks to CoC which did half his hellfire damage (4mil from CoC to 9mil on Helfire). If you look at damage done to Yor itself, he's second above the tanks. Hagara, other than the fact 25m guilds just sit on their asses in the middle for the majority of the fight, and that he has CoC and WoU (the BiS trinkets, which from my sims make or break the incin spec), you might have finally gotten me on one. Ultrax, ofc. Because it's most viable here. Warmaster, idk why you'd be demo here, but he somehow made it work, good for him.

My point still remains that this is a sim before use spec. Using this spec is can be a straight up dps LOSS, even on ultraxion, if you have the wrong gear for it.

[Hankenji]

What a lot of people fail to recognize when analyzing the incinerate spec is that incinerate's cast time necessarily leads to more casts which means more impending doom procs. If over the course of a fight this results in one extra meta used it should comfortably offset the Immolate recasts. The incinerate spec can be great for yorsahj on back to back black phases, zonozz if you can get two metas up near the end, hagara if you cam use meta on the pull and get it back up for the first 15s burn, ultraxion always, spine if your guild gets tendons more often than every 2 minutes, and madness if you can get multiple full metas on a platform.

The incinerate spec is more at the mercy of rng bit the whole point of demo is 1. Using meta strategically and effectively and 1a. Maximizing metas uptime. The incinerate spec puts you in the best position to have meta up more often thus being able to pump out damage when you need it most. Bad rng will manifest itself more dramatically with the spec but good rng pays off. It also represents a quality of life upgrade.

I realize on average the shadow bolt spec is more consistent and probably higher but the above is my justification of why top parses are incinerate specced and why it is not a tragedy to use it for more than ultraxion.

Typed on a phone sorry for any typos.

[Jessicka]

What a lot of people fail to recognize when analyzing the incinerate spec is that incinerate's cast time necessarily leads to more casts which means more impending doom procs. If over the course of a fight this results in one extra meta used it should comfortably offset the Immolate recasts. The incinerate spec can be great for yorsahj on back to back black phases, zonozz if you can get two metas up near the end, hagara if you cam use meta on the pull and get it back up for the first 15s burn, ultraxion always, spine if your guild gets tendons more often than every 2 minutes, and madness if you can get multiple full metas on a platform.

The incinerate spec is more at the mercy of rng bit the whole point of demo is 1. Using meta strategically and effectively and 1a. Maximizing metas uptime. The incinerate spec puts you in the best position to have meta up more often thus being able to pump out damage when you need it most. Bad rng will manifest itself more dramatically with the spec but good rng pays off. It also represents a quality of life upgrade.

I realize on average the shadow bolt spec is more consistent and probably higher but the above is my justification of why top parses are incinerate specced and why it is not a tragedy to use it for more than ultraxion.

Typed on a phone sorry for any typos.

What you fail to realise is that mathematically, if you get 2 extra Impending Doom procs per encounter using Incinerate, you're doing well.

[Deleted]

The demonology guide 4.3 has failed too

[Hankenji]

Say it is 2 extra impending dooms over an encounter, if that is enough to put you in a situation to get meta off CD in a place where it is beneficial and you wouldn't otherwise have it running a shadow bolt spec then in that circumstance the incinerate spec is arguably better. Have you run the SB spec on Yorsahj and gotten meta off CD the instant the last AOE add drops, even 1 extra proc at that moment would be a huge DPS gain as compared to holding it for 45 seconds in anticipation of the next round of globs having a black when there is a 33% chance it won't even have one. Similarly everyone who has run the shadow bolt spec, myself included has had circumstances where they get meta off CD with a boss at 2%. Think what an extra two impending dooms over the course of a fight means for that instance.

Again I'm not arguing that simcraft reasonably predicts the average over many iterations, I'm arguing that the incinerate spec gives you a better shot by whatever margin of getting good rng and doing exceptional dps as a result.

[Jessicka]

That's like arguing stacking Haste is better for that reason, and because you get more Immolate ticks, and therefore more Molten Core procs as well. In terms of RNG, sure, that may well happen, and those results will come up higher on WoL parses. People will notice those high performing outliers and ignore the overall standard deviation which has always been high for Demo. So, do those outliers really suggest that's genuinely the best way to play the spec? Not really, no. There may be higher potential, but there's also nothing there to compensate for when that gamble with RNG goes bad.

[lamchopp]

Hey thanks for the all the insight I've been wondering between SB vs incinerate filler as well. I guess as a side question to this, since we're not using incinerate as a filler do we swap out the incinerate glyph? If so do we replace with glyph of corruption? I armoried karkinos and he was using the incinerate glyph but I'm guessing you're somewhat close to BiS (at least normal mode gear) so you're preferring the incinerate spec?