1. #1

    Operation Modes - Various Strategies

    This is not a guide, or a "normal is too hard / nightmare is too easy" thread, this is a posting for people to discuss creative way fights could have been different between all difficulty modes. I apologize for any misconceptions.

    My guild just started doing Operations this week, though I have been watching videos and doing researching about them as soon as I possibly could. The one thing that has bothered me about them is that they are all essentially the same strategy between each version, but with the only differences being health and damage values. One thing that I hope that Bioware does in the future is have a different strategy or add more to bosses to make them more unique between each mode.

    Normal mode operations are meant to be easy and puggable, as well as a good stepping stone for guilds to become more organized and prepare for hard mode operations. Many of the strategies used on normal can be devastating on new guilds, and fresh level 50s attempting to do operations.

    Hard mode operations are meant to be a challenge for organized guilds. Most of the boss fights seems like they were designed as hard mode, and then had their healths increased or reduced based on the mode.

    Finally, Nightmare mode is meant to cater to the hardcore players that enjoy a substantial challenge and being recognized for their accomplishments. This last one, while it is a challenge to beat nightmare mode, it loses some of its glory when the bosses only scale up health and damage, but strategy stays the same.

    Below are some creative ideas about some of the bosses I have currently fought. While these obviously won't be changed at all, I hope that it provides some ideas for what could be done in the future. I also don't expect to see varying strategies coming with 1.1, but there is hope for 1.2.


    Eternity Vault
    Turrets
    Normal Mode
    Don't have the 10-12 adds that appear when engaging the turrets. This fight is a killer on new guilds participating in operations. Normal operations are the first ones that most guilds go into, and having this massive amount of adds spawning is very overwhelming, especially on healers and first time raiding guilds as it is the first pull of the operation.

    Hard Mode
    Here you can have the adds for the more organized group, and keep the fight as it is meant to be done.

    Nightmare Mode
    In addition to the adds spawning, add a shield around the turret that it can not be attacked until the power cells at its base have been destroyed.


    Annihilation Droid XRR-3
    Normal Mode
    On normal mode, don't have Annihilation Droid do his missile barrage. This will result in the normal strategy not requiring the use of running around a turret, or a Gunslinger/Imperial Agents shield.

    Hard Mode
    Keep the fight as it is intended, added missile barrage and the strategy use of avoiding it.

    Nightmare Mode
    When missile barrage is being cast have Annihilation Droid put a shield on himself protecting him from taking any damage. Also, when hiding behind the pillars, have the missiles continue to launch towards the pillar where players are hiding, not hit them, but at the pillar they are hiding behind.

    After 3 barrage rotations at a piller, that pillar will collapse, no longer making it viable to hide behind, thus having to then use the other one. Should even one player go behind an opposite side one, it would get attacked and count towards one of the three hits. This would require more coordination to ensure the proper turret is being used to hide behind.


    Karraga's Palace
    Bonethrasher
    Normal Mode
    On normal mode, do not have the adds that appear at 50% come out. The ones that come down and if he eats, he enrages are still good to keep, just take out those other two adds.

    Hard Mode
    Keep the fight as intended, still having the cats appearing at 50%.

    Nightmare Mode
    When Bonethraser slams the ground, after 5-10 seconds of the slam, have the floor crack and create a hole in the platform that exposes down to the nasty green ooze of death. This will require a higher awareness of where players are standing and strategy as the fight progresses.


    These are just the fights I have done personally, what changes would you make to have Normal Mode be easier for recently hit level 50s / guilds, and what changes would you make to Nightmare mode to make them more challenging and unique fights for hardcore raiders?
    Last edited by ohnoto; 2012-01-30 at 07:39 PM.
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  2. #2
    Can't speak for hard mode or nightmare, but for normal - It feels on-par with a non-BT HM, so I can't imagine why it should be easier. We cleared 4/5 KP on normal with a pug and only one or two people having seen the fights before, and the most we wiped on was the droid boss, which seemed a bit tightly tuned enrage-wise, but I figure that might have been a strat failure on our part that didn't let us maximize our DPS. We ran out of time after one pull on Karagga, so I couldn't say how hard he is.

  3. #3
    While I know that this thread comes off as a "Normal is too hard, Nightmare is too easy", it is not meant to. It is meant to be about the fact that there is no differing strategy between modes. Once you learn the strategy on normal mode, the same one applies to hard, that applies to nightmare, and I think there should be some variety.

    I also asked for other peoples ideas about them. If you don't like mine, post your own. This thread is meant to bring out some creativeness of people and how they would do a redesign of these bosses.
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  4. #4
    we adjusted our tactics for all hard mode encounters, but thats only because you dont have to use the "actual" strategy in normal mode because its too easy.
    I'd welcome your ideas though for nightmare, though. but I think its alright the way it is, I think bioware should have other priorities when it comes to the operations, the presentation should be far better and more spectacular in my opinion.

  5. #5
    Scarab Lord
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    Added your guide to the stickied guides thread.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Culadin View Post
    Added your guide to the stickied guides thread.
    This isn't a guide... it's his suggestions for how things SHOULD be based on his guilds one week of doing normal mode ops.

  7. #7
    Scarab Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisti View Post
    This isn't a guide... it's his suggestions for how things SHOULD be based on his guilds one week of doing normal mode ops.
    Hmm my mistake then.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisti View Post
    This isn't a guide... it's his suggestions for how things SHOULD be based on his guilds one week of doing normal mode ops.
    I think you should read the actual posting and more than just the first couple of words. Just to let you know, I've been leading raids and guilds for the last 7 years. I participated in an round table discussion last night with other guild leaders and community administrators for SWTOR, hosted by Tor-World and this was something I brought up, in that there is no variety of strategies. Everyone there agreed.

    I then began thinking about how these fights could have been done creatively to provide a variety of strategies across all difficulty modes. Again, as I posted multiple times, this is a thread about people discussing creative ways these fights could have been different between each mode.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoto View Post
    I think you should read the actual posting and more than just the first couple of words. Just to let you know, I've been leading raids and guilds for the last 7 years. I participated in an round table discussion last night with other guild leaders and community administrators for SWTOR, hosted by Tor-World and this was something I brought up, in that there is no variety of strategies. Everyone there agreed.

    I then began thinking about how these fights could have been done creatively to provide a variety of strategies across all difficulty modes. Again, as I posted multiple times, this is a thread about people discussing creative ways these fights could have been different between each mode.
    Oh, I read your post. Were if's and but's candy and nuts, it would be Xmas all year long. There IS variety, and I daresay you have let your theorycrafting get in the way of actual praxis. There aren't dramatic differences, no, but for instance 16 man normals incorporate elements you find in 8-man hard and NM with 3 times the boss HP of 8 man normal. So, you get twice as many people to down the relative equivalent of a boss and a half, with new mechanics, and stricter margins of error, and you argue that it isn't difficult enough, yet you haven't actually experienced it...

    I read a lot of posts, many more than I reply to, I assure you, and on much more comprehensive and thorough sites, you may have reinforced your opinion with some others, but honestly, apply for a job at BW if you feel they have failed so hard in the ops dept. Otherwise, roger up and get killing.

    p.s. your thread title is severely misleading. enough that a mod stickied this as a guide. LOL

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisti View Post
    you argue that it isn't difficult enough, yet you haven't actually experienced it...
    No, I argue that there isn't enough variety between the strategy of different modes and proposed a thread where people could explore their own creativity in how something could be improved upon and made to be more interesting. There is nothing here about theory crafting or mechanics, or what should be done. I even stated in my original post that it isn't something that would get changed, nor would I ever argue for it because that's not how MMOs work.

    It seems that many have lost that creativity thought and think that everything posted has to be all serious. Again, this post was meant to boost some creativity out of people.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoto View Post
    I even stated in my original post that it isn't something that would get changed, nor would I ever argue for it because that's not how MMOs work.
    So basically this thread exists so people are aware that you participated in a roundtable discussion with other guild leaders and SWTOR CM's? The creativity you need to boost is not the readership here, but that of BW's and that can be best accomplished by posting a well thought out critique, minus histrionics, and offer potential solutions, much as you have done here. Except on BW's forums, where a dev might actually read it.

  12. #12
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    I agree with you here! These are some good ideas that I hope Bioware implements.

    If there was an actual strategic change added into the fights that made them feel more "Nightmare" level or "Hard" mode level then people won't burn out as quickly. If all you have is some harder hitting bosses with a few million extra hit-points people are going to feel a bit let down as to the entire difficulty system. Some solid ideas!
    Time to fear the Reaper

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisti View Post
    Except on BW's forums, where a dev might actually read it.
    You must be talking about this thread, here, that I posted on their original forums this morning.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarocket View Post
    I agree with you here! These are some good ideas that I hope Bioware implements.

    If there was an actual strategic change added into the fights that made them feel more "Nightmare" level or "Hard" mode level then people won't burn out as quickly. If all you have is some harder hitting bosses with a few million extra hit-points people are going to feel a bit let down as to the entire difficulty system. Some solid ideas!
    Thank you
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoto View Post
    You must be talking about this thread, here, that I posted on their original forums this morning.
    Thank you
    And this one here. My you have been a prolific poster today!

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisti View Post
    And this one here. My you have been a prolific poster today!
    Of course I posted it there, that is my community fan site. Glad you stopped by

    But lets not get off topic here and hear what others have to say about this.
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  16. #16
    Ya but in the suggestion Hm stay like they are already and u remove ability in reg. Imo reg are so easy for now, no need to remove ability. But they should add more for Hm/Nm thought

  17. #17
    I couldn't agree with you more. One-shotting Karagga nightmare mode was extremely disappointing :/ (I'm not even kidding. We 1 shot the whole place with the exception of the two guards/mercs and the chinese tower puzzle boss, which we two shot). Add onto that the fact that nightmare loot tables are the same as hard mode (not even a recolor to speak of) and you've got some very disappointed "hardcore" raiders.

    If I come up with any ideas for nightmare modes after tuesday's raid I'll come back and post them

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