Thoughts on UHDK/HPAL/SUB and Enh/Hpal/Sub?

[Novarx]

Currently running UHDK/HPAL/SUB on my rogue, might be interested in running enhance instead of the dk. Any thoughts and/or comments on the two comps? Are they both garbage? Should I get a MM hunter instead?

[Rawt]

enhancement is horrid. bring a hunter or good arms war.

[Deleted]

Dont get the enhance, keep dk.

[Deleted]

Enhance/rogue/priest is the best comp for an enhancement shaman right now. I'd be guessing it'd work decently with a paladin instead of a priest too.

[Walktheline]

Dont get the enhance, keep dk.

Rogues with Stage 2 daggers (oder legendaries) + Vial with Enhancer with 2x Proc Axes + Vial, global clothies - profit. Im currently running rogue/enh/hpally and I have to say, its pretty nice (both without vial and the rogue having stage 1 daggers...) . either you kill one in the opener, or you pressure them that much, that the healer has to pull his trinket and than go with shadowdance rogue, blind + zap + hex + hoj and then kill em. Played about 15 games on 2-2,3k mmr and we simply won 14 games and only lost to Hpally/dk/hunter who were actually glad last season and we played kinda retarded and too tunnel vision :P

TL;DR -> Enh + Sub = immense pressure, i would also tend to say OP pressure (also with vial nerf coming). Disc might be stronger due to MassDispel and some burst on his own - but Hpally is still pretty viable.

[Dorfie]

Both comps are definitely viable to Gladiator at the moment. There's plenty of DK+Rogue cleaves going around and theres a Rank 1 Enh+Rogue cleave at themoment. Just play with whoever you like more/the better player.

[Shamygandof]

Rogues with vial and daggers can make a sh!t sandwich viable, so enh should suffice too.

[Schmeebs]

Enhance is actually really really good right now. Just because most people can't play enhance to a high level doesn't mean it isn't viable.

[Shamygandof]

Enhance is actually really really good right now. Just because most people can't play enhance to a high level doesn't mean it isn't viable.

What's your definition of "really really good"? May I ask what class/spec do you play? And if enh is so good why do I see only one enh team at gladiator status?


Edit: heck, you could probably count on one hand how many enh are over 2200.

[Malgru]

Rogues with vial and daggers can make a sh!t sandwich viable, so enh should suffice too.

Maybe not so much in 4.3.2, but they can definitely still make any team viable.

[Dyrtnap]

Both of these comps made it into the NAO:Invitationals qualifiers last weekend.

Um Disc/Enh/Sub is quite viable. It is the R1 on Nightfall which is easily the 2nd hardest if not the hardest US BG now with all the influx of tournament level players to KT. I checked the Fraps a few weeks ago and we faced 12 R1's and something around 20 other glads in 4 hrs of play all from KT.

It will work with the HPal but not quite as well but will work fine. Make sure your Enh is really solid because it isn't a faceroll spec by any means and takes a talented experienced player to be successful at.

DK/Sub/Hpal works as well but would probably be better with a Priest. This one is FAR easier to play imo. Especially if your DK prefers Frost because Frost is the easiest quasi viable spec in the game. Personally I would want to play UH here but Gnaw DR's so possibly Frost might be better I know that's what Yushez was playing at the NAO's.

Both of these are perfectly viable. A bunch of people that are too dumb/afraid/ignorant to try stuff out and will only listen to what the forum monkeys say. Those people will tell you that "Enh sucks and isn't playable" but I personally think its the most underrated spec in the game. Before all the Enh baddies that want to blame their spec start in what I said was just backed up by one of the NAO announcers so I'm not the only one. Obviously his opinion is just an opinion but people will catch on soon mark my words.

Also from the personal experience from playing it, playing with one and playing against several high quality ones I think Enh is in better shape than it has been in Cata and possibly since 2H Enh days. If Enh still had Hero it would be flat OP. Enh has shit tons of burst and a lot of utility and will work if played well but the Enh can't be bad or it won't work while the DK can be bad and will do better than a decent Enh.

If the DK and the Enh are the same person have them play whatever they are best at and most comfortable with.

[Novarx]

Thank you so much Dyrtnap, that's the insight I was looking for! I was unsure about the synergy of the comp, but now that you point it out, it does seem like it would be very viable (enh/sub/hpal). Yes, the enhance is the same player as the dk, as it's his main, so I'm gonna let him try it out and see how it works for us. It's not a matter of skill in the team because all 3 of us have been over 2K+ rating before, it's just a matter of practicing and honing our skills now!

[Shamygandof]

Be advised dyrtnap plays frost mage as his main and has conceded in another thread that he hasn't seriously played enh since wotlk. He has played against great enh, but I truly think he is ignorant to just how good those players have to be to be as succesful as they are. A good enh shaman is not enough, you better be great. Lets face it, how many great players play any class? You can make enh/sub/hpal work, but just know your rogue, your enh, and hpal better be top notch. You will have to cover your enh shamans ridiculous squishyness to melee comps. Your rogue better be on point with the peels and control. Just know the strength of this comp is not because of the enh shaman and has way more to do with how good rogues are. Priest would be more optimal so your enh and hpal have to play defensively till the rogue has some control. You should excel against caster comps as enh is very strong against casters. Good Luck and let us know how it goes either way. What is your teams name?

[Dyrtnap]

Thank you so much Dyrtnap, that's the insight I was looking for! I was unsure about the synergy of the comp, but now that you point it out, it does seem like it would be very viable (enh/sub/hpal). Yes, the enhance is the same player as the dk, as it's his main, so I'm gonna let him try it out and see how it works for us. It's not a matter of skill in the team because all 3 of us have been over 2K+ rating before, it's just a matter of practicing and honing our skills now!

Glad I could help :-)

Like I said earlier this team played recently in the NAO:Invitational qualifiers. They played the 2nd day iirc and there are recordings of the stream. They did lose their 1st round but I can't remember if they got knocked out of the losers bracket or not.

Even watching them lose will give you a little idea of the strats. I faced them twice early this season and they honestly were one of the most brutal burst comps I've faced. Basically only RMP's with Vial and a bunch of PvE gear have killed one of us faster.

Here's a link to their team http://us.battle.net/wow/en/arena/ke...0not%20viable/

I would check to see if any of them stream. I would bet that at least one does but I haven't checked since I'm currently working hard on my current comp and not worrying about alts.

I deleted the Fraps I had of our games but from what I remember they basically just did quite a few VERY hard switches. If we went for their healer we got peeled to shit and back so the Shaman was the only real target for a meleecleave. Actually the Shaman was really pretty survivable and that shocked us and really took us off guard. It was like there was no real viable target and they have quite a but of non-DRing CC not to mention what Enh Wind Shear does to healers. I think one game they started on one of the DPS and made a switch to our Priest with Dance and Wolves and essentially 2 shot him. The other one they just cleaved me down in about 10 seconds through Pain Sup on a swap w/o Wolves.

[Korgoth]

You could always just go ret and run ret dk rogue, seen plenty of that.

[Dyrtnap]

Be advised dyrtnap plays frost mage as his main and has conceded in another thread that he hasn't seriously played enh since wotlk. He has played against great enh, but I truly think he is ignorant to just how good those players have to be to be as succesful as they are. A good enh shaman is not enough, you better be great. Lets face it, how many great players play any class? You can make enh/sub/hpal work, but just know your rogue, your enh, and hpal better be top notch. You will have to cover your enh shamans ridiculous squishyness to melee comps. Your rogue better be on point with the peels and control. Just know the strength of this comp is not because of the enh shaman and has way more to do with how good rogues are. Priest would be more optimal so your enh and hpal have to play defensively till the rogue has some control. You should excel against caster comps as enh is very strong against casters. Good Luck and let us know how it goes either way. What is your teams name?

I have a Mage but it definitely isn't my main but regardless of whether I did or not that won't effect how I see Enh. I'm guessing you think that because I played a caster (which I didn't when facing these comps) I got a skewed impression of Enhances strength. In reality I was just blown away at their burst and damage in general and their utility really seemed solid enough when played well. They feel kinda like DW Rets with smaller but more frequent heals. And Rets are perfectly viable in certain comps.

I've actually faced 3-4 Enh that were pretty solid. Enh/Ret/Priets was one I remember that I really disliked vsing. Enh is underestimated imo that is all I've been saying. You can't tell me its burst potential isn't amazing at times granted its somewhat RNG. I don't think it has many viable comps but I think its like LSD 1 or 2 in that those specific comps can make them feel strong due to the synergy of other classes filling in the gaps in Enhances toolkit. Thats really the whole reason for comps and synergy.

I think Enh will only really work with meleecleaves. I'm not and never have said I think Enh is OP or doesn't need any changes. I just personally think its not anywhere near as bad as many say. I think its like Hunters. One day no one wanted to play with them Blizzcon happens and BAM! 2 million and 1 (I'm obviously exaggerating some for effect) Hunter teams everywhere globaling clothies and DK's. I think Enh just needs something to give people a little faith in them and people will begin to see that with enough experimentation people will find some really solid comps that work consistently.

Honestly I didn't notice the better Enh I've faced being squishy on my meleecleave. I always felt that way and heard it but... idk they seem tougher somehow and I'm sure some of it is in their talent and the talent of their partners (ugg the Ret/Enh team felt like double healer/double dps). But with Maelstrom being fixed vs absorbs they felt like they were having instant heals out the ass. I honestly think DK's are squishier to melee than Enh and maybe Ret too.

I also stated that it takes a FAR better Enh to succeed with than it would with a terrible DK.

[Shamygandof]

Enh/ret/disc works because these two specs are well suited to covering enh squishyness. Ret can bop and off heeal effectively while priest can bubble. I have played 2's with many different classes/specs and have only had success with two specs, ret and disc. Never got to play 2's with a rogue so I can't say if that's a decent comp also. I can see how rogue would work well because a rogue if they are worth a damn should atleast be able to keep one melee dps honest and prevent a zerg situation. Enh 1v1 will pretty much smash face against pretty much any melee except rogue. But if two melee manage to get on you enh its going to be a quick end without some outside assistance fast. Enh has no aoe cc and has no instant escape mechanism. Enh has only one stun which is tied to your offensive/defensive 3min cd. The only thing you can do is try to heal through the zerg using maelstorm procs, drop stoneclaw totem which will absorb 16k of damage, and blow your shamanistic rage. While that may sound sufficient maelstorm proce only come when your able to beat on someone. Melee zergs uaually consist of two stuns, disorients, etc combined with usually a 70% slow so being able to get your hands on someone can be tough. I consider myself a good enh shaman and not great so my opinions are through the eyes of an enh shaman who sees the weaknesses being very glaring. I have never played enh/rogue/hpal, but I can see how it can be succesful. I can also see how it could be a total uphill battle that can seem futile. I wonder if your hpal going ret would be better/easier? Anyway, goodluck I don't want to be such a pessimist all the time. I just love enh and wish it had more attention from blizz (which I know a ton of other specs in worse shape wish too).

[Dyrtnap]

I wonder if your hpal going ret would be better/easier? Anyway, goodluck I don't want to be such a pessimist all the time.

I played Ret/DK/Enh this season for a little bit. It wasn't terrible successful and the Enh was quite good. You are right Ret/Rogue/Enh might work because the Rogue can bring quite a bit of control and can peel when needed. Thats what I really noticed about that Rogue/Enh/Disc we faced is that every time the Enh was in trouble he would GW or EB > run while his Rogue kept a 70% snare up on both of us and would Kidney/Gouge us while he or the healer got him back up.

One thing I will argue with in your post is that other than Rogues no one has a snare above 60%. Enh can keep up at least a 50% snare so everyone is moving at the same or close to the same speed right?

Honestly I'm not the most optimistic guy myself but I try to see the better side of things. Have you tried playing Enh/Ret/Disc or Enh/Rogue/healer? Diablous even took double Enh to like 2400+ MMR this season. There is some light at the end of the tunnel. I hear a whole bunch of defeatist talk out of specs that are only viable in 1-3 comps and I wonder how many people would give them a chance to discover more comps if they actually heard something other than "we aren't viable".

Being positive is really important in sport or other competitive activities you WILL succeed more if you can actually let yourself have some positive beliefs about Enh. Look at the strengths not the weaknesses. Ret has what 3-4 comps that are truly viable? That's what maybe 1-2 more than Enh. We definitely don't call Ret non-viable do we? We might call them weaker but still viable.

[Shamygandof]

Frost shock does have a cd so you can't just spam it. It is also very easily dispelled so that's another reason. Ferals also have a 70% snare rolled into their auto attack when specced (and who wouldn't spec that? lol). I don't see any other comp other that rogue/enh/disc being glad viable do to the reasons I listed in my last post about these classes being able to cover enh glaring weakness. Enh/ret/healer can definitely get a decent rating but not glad imo. Maybe if you swap hunter or feral in with the enh/healer may work ok too as hunter can peel and cc very well and feral can peel well also?

[Dyrtnap]

Frost shock does have a cd so you can't just spam it. It is also very easily dispelled so that's another reason. Ferals also have a 70% snare rolled into their auto attack when specced (and who wouldn't spec that? lol). I don't see any other comp other that rogue/enh/disc being glad viable do to the reasons I listed in my last post about these classes being able to cover enh glaring weakness. Enh/ret/healer can definitely get a decent rating but not glad imo. Maybe if you swap hunter or feral in with the enh/healer may work ok too as hunter can peel and cc very well and feral can peel well also?

Infected wounds is 50% bro and isn't caused by auto attacks. They just move faster than other melee so it feels worse. If Ferals had a 70% snare you would notice it while kiting them.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=48484/infected-wounds

Obviously FS has a CD and can be dispelled so can many other slows and roots. You also have Unleash Elements, Earthbind and Ghost Wolf to kite or help close the gap.
You're taking 1 negative while ignoring 3 positives.

And yeah Feral or Hunter could probably work quite nicely. Enh needs peels no doubt and they need a little help staying on their target sometimes. They also probably need to be playing with another burst spec. If someone can provide those then they can possibly be viable.