10 v 25

[Firecrest]

Source

25-Man Guilds
2,637 (6.46%)

10-Man Guilds
38,172 (93.54%)

Total Guilds
40,809


A guildie of mine showed me this link and I have to say, I was shocked. I raid 25 man and, while I knew that many in the WoW community had made the switch to 10, I had no idea the change was this severe. I wonder what this means for the future of raiding. If these numbers really are accurate, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Blizz pull 25s entirely. I think that would be a sad day though...

[Asur]

I'd be behind 15 mans

[Dorfie]

Players doing 25s = 65 925 ~15%
Players doing 10s = 381 720 ~85%

Still a big difference but less biased. Not hard to see why there's more 10 mans. It's easier to organise and more social whereas 25 man will always be easier for the hardcore raiders.

[Profish13]

I used to think 25 mans were epic and that 10 mans just felt like slightly better versions of a 5 man group. Now that Ive done primarily 10 mans this xpac, I dont think I could ever go back to a 25 man guild. As cool as it is to feel like youre part of an army taking down a target, there are just so many negative things about 25 mans to me. Even in my pretty decent 25 man guild, we were regularly carrying 4-6 people any given night and that always bothered me. The large group of people just gives you so many more opportunities for someone to screw up, like iceblocking half the raid in Sindragosa.

Another thing is you feel more of a close bond with 9 other raiders than you do with 24 other raiders. Another is that while feeling like youre part of a huge group is cool, its also a negative because youre just one of many so you feel like youre contributing as much. There have been several spots where even as a DPS, I made a huge difference in a 10 man. In a 25 man, I cant possibly make that big of an impact. I could go on and on with the negatives of 25s.

So while 10 mans dont have that epic feeling that 25 mans give, theyre just much less of a hassle to me.

[Intropid]

Ten man.
Never raided a 25-man before....BH doesn't count. P:

[Supakaiser]

Get rid of 25s, get rid of 10s

WTB 15 mans. This whole 2 different raid size things is silly.

25 mans feel more epic but you're mostly carrying a 1-2 groups of mediocres.
10 mans are smaller, don't feel as epic and in certain cases, are more difficult. 25m has cannon fodder.

15 mans would be a nice balance imo

[JoeyGrease]

i think they should raise 10 to 15 mans

[roahn the warlock]

Get rid of 25s, get rid of 10s

WTB 15 mans. This whole 2 different raid size things is silly.

2 different raid sizes was valid when they represented two different levels of difficulty, blizzard thus needed to make 4 different encounters for 4 levels of difficulty (AND still managed to make huge new innovative raids mind you!) now hey have to make 5 different encounters for 3 levels of difficulty, and the third level is so boring it doesn't even count, so 4 encounters for 2 levels of difficulty, I suggest removing 10 or 25 (I prefer 25 man raiding myself) and making something like 15 or 20 so Blizzard could make 3 encounters for 3 levels of difficulty, one less than in ICC and thus should be able to make epic raids with new models again.

[kakle]

I want wrath lockouts back, pug 10m, main raid 25m and run alts on 10m. You would have to also go back to worse loot on 10m and bigger difficulty gap between 10 and 25m(not that i agree its balanced currently). all that said the current raid system might be meh compared to old way, it is liveable. I raid 25m on my main and a mix of guild alts/pugs on 10m with my alt(got to 7/8 this week, ran out of time). If i had a choice i would raid 25m on my alt, but the only 25m on my server are organized groups which raid proper roster which is too much time considering its an alt.

edit: removed tmi

[Bigbazz]

Our guild stayed 25man until mid firelands, summer numbers dwindled and many players quit the game or seriously reduced their playtime (I personally had stopped shortly after the release of Cata, and only recently returned to playing more often). Midway through Firelands they went 10man, stopping 25man completely and have stayed that way in Dragon Soul.

So for us 10man, I prefer 25man personally, but Cataclysm has made it very difficult with the only real motivation to do 25mans being faster legendaries.


If they brought back the seperate loot tables/lockouts of wrath of the lich king, yes it would definitely make 10man less popular again, but it would help bring back 25man raiding, which is comparitively dead, when you look at how it was in previous expansions. Locking everyone down to either 10 or 25 (for heroic modes) and only 1 overall lock, it just doesnt work as well.

[Deleted]

I have spent some quality time arguing with people in the official forum.
It is a dead end.
Any discussion on the matter will drive to rage, bashing, mockery and the same ol nothing.
They should both be deleted to start fresh with MoP.
Anything from 15-20 would do the job for me.

I raid 10 but not happy about it.
Not voted.

[Deleted]

It would be nice to remove both and have 15 man, but there would be so much QQ from 25 man raiders as they would have to kick 10 players.

[Seriss]

25 mans feel more epic but you're mostly carrying a 1-2 groups of mediocres.
10 mans are smaller, don't feel as epic and in certain cases, are more difficult. 25m has cannon fodder.

People who say that never raided 25-man in a halfway progressively oriented guild. Cannon fodder, my hoof... So much cannon fodder in a 25-man raid that when you see someone die, you instinctively know that you might as well wipe it right then and there because the dps will probably not be enough or that a healer being rezzed and being oom will break the entire attempt.

Seriously, in that respect, 25-man is equal to 10-man. Someone dies during progress? Depending on who it was, you already know you failed that try. No amount of battle rezzes will make up for it. Too much is lost by a death already. The dps or hps of the one who died, the dps or hps of the one who rezzes them, the dps and hps of the ones who hit their buff buttons to rebuff the rezzed person... So much is lost.

It would be nice to remove both and have 15 man, but there would be so much QQ from 25 man raiders as they would have to kick 10 players.

Yep, that was already somewhat of a problem when they had to downsize from 40 to 25 man.

[Deleted]

I personally think that one of the reasons why ppl went 10 man instead of 25 man (it was for me atleast) could be that for ex. when i raided 25 man it always seemed to be a bunch of good players trying to outweigh some bad ones, i know this might not be true anymore or for everyone, but i felt that going 10 man would make sure that everyone was doing their best all the time cause there wasnt anywhere to "hide".

To me it seems that 10 is less for giving compared to 25 man.

[Yossarian]

making 10 and 25 loots the same is the shittest thing Blizz did in cataclysm, it killed 25m raiding
we still raid in 25, we are 3/8hm and we are pretty healthy, but all around us there's only dead 25m raiding guilds...

[Deleted]

It would be nice to remove both and have 15 man, but there would be so much QQ from 25 man raiders as they would have to kick 10 players.

That would have been the case few tiers ago.
Tier 10 or even at the start of tier 11.
Now everything is cleared. There are roughly over 1000 active 25s worldwide.
Don't check normal kills cause they re bugged from the LFR for both guildox and wowprogress.

There are a few things that can be done for 25s. But it will just delay the death of the remaining ones. To go back to a TBC or Wrath model would be the most fair thing, but it is not posible.
And since blizzard killed every chance for 10 and 25 to exist together the next reasonable thing is to delete them both and have ONE raiding model in between. If you keep 10s then the 10 people raiders will be boasting all over that people actually have chosen their format, while those that raid 25s or raid 10 without that being their choice will feel cheated and angry.
If (i don't see it posible but you never know) company goes for wrath raiding model, then the people that actually prefer 10s will complain.

If the new model is something new and fresh, people will forget the quarell, and although they might nag they will adapt and carry on, not to mention that many actually strongly support a change like that.

@Yossarian
"making 10 and 25 loots the same is the shittest thing Blizz did in cataclysm, it killed 25m raiding
we still raid in 25, we are 3/8hm and we are pretty healthy, but all around us there's only dead 25m raiding guilds... "

It was, but now it is done m8.
95% of the guilds raid 10 :S. Just be happy that many that do so don't enjoy it.
This is why there is still room for compromise, not sure if there is space for pure 25s anymore though :S

[Blackmist]

10 v 25 is not about difficulty, that's just a side effect.

It's about keeping people locked into a small group of friends, so they're less likely to leave the game. I felt very little connection to my old 25 man guild, but I do to my 10 man. It's very hard to fill a 25 man raid with competent people (and even harder to see the ones that aren't), and also people that you like.

Making the loot the same was a work of genius, imo. The only people crying over the change are those that hid their badness behind 24 other people. The only 25 mans left are the ones where everyone got on, or everyone was really good. Mediocre 25 man guilds died or split off into 10s of varying abilities.

[Brett Skullcrack]

A guildie of mine showed me this link and I have to say, I was shocked. I raid 25 man and, while I knew that many in the WoW community had made the switch to 10, I had no idea the change was this severe.

I'm not shocked at all. Cata killed 25-man raiding on my server, and looking at wowprogress it seems like there's only a handful of high population servers that have a viable 25-man raiding scene left. It seems like Blizzard is intentionally trying to kill 25-man raiding, or they're completely clueless about their own end-game.

[Stingray]

A guildie of mine showed me this link and I have to say, I was shocked. I raid 25 man and, while I knew that many in the WoW community had made the switch to 10, I had no idea the change was this severe. I wonder what this means for the future of raiding. If these numbers really are accurate, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Blizz pull 25s entirely. I think that would be a sad day though...

There's a lot of casual 10-man guilds out there that aren't really doing a whole lot. If you look at the number of guilds who've killed Heroic Morchok this tier, which any even remotely serious raiding guild should have done by now...

US: 4655 10-man, 690 25-man
Europe: 8637 10-man, 1122 25-man

Multiply the number of 25-mans by 3 since they usually have roughly 3 times as many people on their rosters.

That comes out to 69% of raiders doing 10-man in the US, 72% in Europe.

Also keep in mind that 10-man guilds come and go much faster than 25-man guilds do. Lot of dead 10-man guilds out there that killed Morchok. In reality it's probably 60/40 or so.

[Deleted]

As a 25 man raider myself, was been that for the most of the raiding time and i can say 25 man feels more epic, even more when u kill new hc bosses.
Only thing i don't like about it is the huge lag in heavy aoe encounters but hopefully that will change with the new patch.
Maybe making a 20man and killing 10/25 would be a good thing to do and would allow blizzard to make better raids with epic encounters that would actually mean something when we complete it and make us feel like we did something pve wise.
But this switch to 20man raiding would kill pugs on servers because forming a 20man group off puggers is not easy.

Edit:when i think of it, wrath was a good balance. Switch to 20man raiding and pug 10man(with few less ilevel would force the guild to be 20/25man)