Rogues

[Asatru]

I support the splitting of pvE and PVP however as you've stated, Apparently that's very hard for blizzard.

I never stated it would be very hard for Blizzard. I merely said it would require ACTUAL work being done with WoW which is something that Devs aren't too keen on these days. They're more for recycling old content and passing it off as new content.

[PizzaSHARK]

So far in this thread:

No one counter-arguing how easy it is to counter shadow dance. "OH BUT YOU HAS SMOKE BOMB".... yeah, just stand near the person who's GOING to be focused. It's a 6 second duration (and if anyones using 4 piece tier they have no resilience and will blow up), warrior throwdown, disarm, lock fear into deathcoil, polymorph, trap, scattershot, ghoul stun if UH DK, priest fear, priest disarm, paladin bubble, paladin stun, paladin BoP, HoS... i mean seriously do you want me to go on? Like I said before, last time i checked RMP lost to PHD. You literally have to survive one burst phase and you win the game. It's amazing how the PHD won 3/4 games yet all you are doing is whining. If YOU can't beat a rogue, that doesn't make them OP. If a Rogues good in RBG's because of smokebomb.... last time I checked any high ranked RBG brings a boomkin or two as well because of their damage/solarbeam.

And Smoke Bomb is only something Rogues bring. Damage and a ranged silence you can get from several different classes. No one sits in Solar Beam intentionally so the AOE/semi-permanent aspects usually go to waste.

If it was as easy as you say to counter Bomb+Dance burst cycles, and if Rogues were not problematic, then you would see a more diverse representation of classes at the title-worthy rating brackets, but you don't. Rogues have a lot of ways of avoiding CC, plus they have a lot of CCs themselves. Smoke Bomb is preventing your teammates from assisting whoever's being burst in the smoke, the rogue himself probably has the burst target stunned while the dance is happening, and rogues have many methods of avoiding CC - plus you're going to need to be inside the cloud in order to use most any CC on the rogue since LOS is blocked.

If you enter the cloud to assist your teammate, you're setting yourselves up for a money Howl of Terror or Psychic Scream, or maybe a Mage just layers Ring of Frost near it so that you get frozen if you try to enter.

And even if you trinket the stun and pop defensive cooldowns? It's no problem - Shadow Dance will be available in 60 seconds, Smoke Bomb can be reset with Prep, and you won't survive the second cycle. And Rogue teams have no issues surviving for 60 seconds.

This is also assuming that the Rogue's team is unable to be a threat during those intervening 60 seconds, which is a flat-out lie. Just because Rogue teams do occasionally lose games doesn't mean that Rogues aren't hideously overpowered this season.

[Shadowsaint]

Everyone just assumes all rogues have heroic vial and have the legendary daggers... seriously that's not even close to the case. Vial was nerfed, stop whining. Do you know how easy it is to notice a rogue in shadow dance in smoke bomb? It's difficult to kill a healer when hes group up with his buddies so as soon as I smokebomb the lock just fears or the hunter traps... I can go on if you'd like.

Do I find the stupid teams who don't know how to counter it? Yeah. It's great. But it's like when I first found hunters and frost mages and they used to push my shit in; it wasn't a pleasant experience and I've learnt how to counter them since. I still lose to good ones but it's much more fair now. Also, ever tried to kill a holy pally/resto shaman as a rogue? Say it's not balanced all you want around 1v1 but if I do 2's or 3's and the holy pally ends up laughing at me while his DPS kill my healer... not exactly the best thing.

I absolutely agree PvE and PvP should be seperated, things like vengeance in PvP were absurd and I'm glad that was finally taken out (nothing quite like a blood dk soloing a rogue/feral druid) but until then I hope blizzard doesn't nerf rogue damage. I remember at the start of cata when I rolled a prot pally because my rogue was so god awfully boring, when assassination was the only spec and it was literally hitting 2 buttons other than CD's and my top 3 abilities were passive abilities (in PvE, rogues always suffer early with little resil and a lot of ranged specs, like warriors.... except warriors didn't get better this time >_>). If you want to complain that the 2400+ arena rating people have to face rogues with legendaries, fine. I'm fairly certain those people actually DO know how to counter that (PHD beat RMP last time I checked, survive the smoke bomb and it's gg), if you're in the low end brackets I HIGHLY doubt you're facing rogues in legendaries and heroic vials. I don't consider myself a high level player (guilds 5/8 10 man DS, regular, not even heroic and my PvP usually ends up around the 1800+ brackets) but I could find some other classes to complain about still. I don't though because I know this game IS balanced for the top end things, which it should be since that's where the most skill comes from.

Oh and for the guy who said his enh shaman always beats rogues... yeah congratulations on facing rogues with no gear. Enh shaman are like boomkins 1v1, just so tasty.

Yeah, what this guy said ^

[PizzaSHARK]

Yeah, what this guy said ^

Yep. At this point I'm advocating all of these changes just be pushed back to 5.0. Season 11 is already ruined, there's no point in trying to redeem it.

[ritsunero]

dont rogues also hav unnaly high dodge as well not sure if agi still gives dodge to rogues feel free to correct me if im wrong but the only classes that should have dodge are tanks if they are speced into tank spec other then that dodge should be taken away from classes like reg kitty form and rogues hell they took it from hunters with our old aspect sigh miss having around 30% dodge

[tinkabela]

dont rogues also hav unnaly high dodge as well not sure if agi still gives dodge to rogues feel free to correct me if im wrong but the only classes that should have dodge are tanks if they are speced into tank spec other then that dodge should be taken away from classes like reg kitty form and rogues hell they took it from hunters with our old aspect sigh miss having around 30% dodge

when my rogue was level 14, I had 102% dodge with evasion up. I didn't even have any enchants outside of 2x+15 agi on weapons, just heirloom gear, and no rings/neck piece.

my level 78 rogue has approximately 90% dodge with evasion up, making that about 40% passive, and she doesn't even have any cataclysm items yet.

not saying thats the norm at 85, but just illustrating the massive dodge rogues get from agility, and how its probably a bit much

[ritsunero]

yah my hunter atm with almost full cataclimic im at 7% dodge where as rogues with full cata have around 30+dodge and like you said with evasion and the other abilitys its a bit stupid as a hunter i never really have a prob with rogues even 1v1 but every once in a while you come across 1 that act knows there class up and down and thats a scary site to behold very scary but findings a skilled rogue is rare id say about 98% of all rogues are bads only 2 % being any good

[Jersovic]

when my rogue was level 14, I had 102% dodge with evasion up. I didn't even have any enchants outside of 2x+15 agi on weapons, just heirloom gear, and no rings/neck piece.

my level 78 rogue has approximately 90% dodge with evasion up, making that about 40% passive, and she doesn't even have any cataclysm items yet.

not saying thats the norm at 85, but just illustrating the massive dodge rogues get from agility, and how its probably a bit much

It sure is hard to dodge a spell! lol!!!

[Jazzmongoose]

Rogues take the most melee damage in game if caught.. Even mage/lock who have 20% from armor/pet..
Catch that Rogue! Stun! Blow offensives!

[pitakos]

yah my hunter atm with almost full cataclimic im at 7% dodge where as rogues with full cata have around 30+dodge and like you said with evasion and the other abilitys its a bit stupid as a hunter i never really have a prob with rogues even 1v1 but every once in a while you come across 1 that act knows there class up and down and thats a scary site to behold very scary but findings a skilled rogue is rare id say about 98% of all rogues are bads only 2 % being any good

Can a warrior ask for a dodge please ?

[Distiller]

throwdown the rogue, he turned and dodged...nvm.

[Rawt]

There will always be legendaries and some form of trinket that has a major impact in the final season of each expansion. Until they disallow PVE items, theres nothing you can do about it. Rogues are actually the most balanced they have ever been (and some much needed survivability added this xpac), and its no different than wars with the tentacle trinket, or casters with cunning.

[tinkabela]

Can a warrior ask for a dodge please ?

don't be silly. we get 5% block we can't use because we don't have a shield on

[Castozor]

Rogues take the most melee damage in game if caught.. Even mage/lock who have 20% from armor/pet..
Catch that Rogue! Stun! Blow offensives!

The keywords here being "if caught". It is terribly hard to unload damage unto a rogue as a melee so it's only natural you get a nice chance to burst them once you have finally caught one without CD's. They are still to durable though.

[Roar]

when my rogue was level 14, I had 102% dodge with evasion up. I didn't even have any enchants outside of 2x+15 agi on weapons, just heirloom gear, and no rings/neck piece.....

I assume you are trolling, anyway agility doesn´t give dodge anymore.
-

And pve gear always makes one or more classes stand out way 2 much.
This time the daggers, even tho phase 3 daggers will be a very very rare sight, it is possible for those who really are min-maxers to get phase 2 eventually.
-

....but every once in a while you come across 1 that act knows there class up and down and thats a scary site to behold very scary but findings a skilled rogue is rare id say about 98% of all rogues are bads only 2 % being any good

Same for hunters, I can fight a few that just simply doesn´t stand a chance.. Then out of nowhere I fight these who simply does everything right, I can win but it all depends on the situation.

All in all, it is always the pve gear that tips the balance in favour for some classes each season.. This time it is both the daggers and the trinket, making rogues stand out way above the rest. But as said, phase 1 - common, phase 2 - rare, phase 3 - you will most likely not see those, unless you are playing at 2.5k+ as the players using them will be boosted alot by their share power and stats.

Rogues as a class seems very well balanced, maybe a tad bit over the average this season (sub that is).. but then again so is ret pals, ferals. (At least in my eyes as a rogue)

From my point of view on my resto shaman - hunters hurt, ferals hurt and mages hurt (frost) alot more then the rest when played right.

[Shaderas]

I assume you are trolling, anyway agility doesn´t give dodge anymore.

Agility most certainly does give dodge. It may not be in the mouseover tooltip for Agility, but it does affect dodge chance.

[Korgoth]

I assume you are trolling, anyway agility doesn´t give dodge anymore.

Really? You want to take a break from face rolling shadow dances to just take off a piece of agility gear and see if your dodge rate goes down.

[Illana]

agility only gives dodge to agility classes. No longer increases dodge on paladins/warriors/dks

[Rawt]

throwdown the rogue, he turned and dodged...nvm.

Thats why you charge->throwdown (and specifically why blizz removed the DR'd stun from them).

[Mookes]

Shadow Dance - Enter the Shadow Dance for 8 sec, allowing the use of abilities that ordinarily require Stealth. The energy cost of Ambush is reduced by 20 while Shadow Dance is active.

So excited ;P