1. #8001
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyburn1 View Post
    Because it's his perception of the whole thing.
    And also, because most of his argument can be verified in Mass Effect (1). Been replaying it and most of what he says is true.
    What he says does exist, its just not evidence of the AI inhabiting the Citadel. This is like claiming nostrodamus talking about "brothers" must obviously mean the twin towers. It's matching vague words after the fact to see what you want to see. Its a fairly common method of lazy thinking.

  2. #8002
    Quote Originally Posted by skyburn1 View Post
    Because it's his perception of the whole thing.
    And also, because most of his argument can be verified in Mass Effect (1). Been replaying it and most of what he says is true.
    That he does, but if we think that way the indoctrination theory is also real.
    Also let's not forget that the first ending of Mass Effect was actually supposed to be about the Dark Energy, no matter if was barely mentioned in ME1 or not.
    Plus, what difference does it make? It's a fucking magical godly child, it's bloody silly! "... but a drunk volus says something about it in ME1!", ohhh! Why didn't you said so, it's totaly fine then... NOT!

  3. #8003
    Quote Originally Posted by Oni View Post
    That he does, but if we think that way the indoctrination theory is also real.
    Also let's not forget that the first ending of Mass Effect was actually supposed to be about the Dark Energy, no matter if was barely mentioned in ME1 or not.
    Plus, what difference does it make? It's a fucking magical godly child, it's bloody silly! "... but a drunk volus says something about it in ME1!", ohhh! Why didn't you said so, it's totaly fine then... NOT!
    This argument I don't understand. Why is the star child any more bloody silly than a race of blue seductresses? Or bird men? or fantastic gel that can heal you from start to finish? or guns that don't need ammo at first but then later need ammo? Or bringing a man back from the dead? You've had to swallow so many incredulities over the years ONLY NOW you get indignant about the whole thing. Was Vigil on Ilos silly? He was a blurry VI that gave you the entire story in a couple seconds. What part of the star child made you say NO BIOWARE THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER?
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2012-06-24 at 02:17 AM.

  4. #8004
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    This argument I don't understand. Why is the star child any more bloody silly than a race of blue seductresses? Or bird men? or fantastic gel that can heal you from start to finish? or guns that don't need ammo at first but then later need ammo? Or bringing a man back from the dead? You've had to swallow so many incredulities over the year ONLY NOW you get indignant about the whole thing. Was Vigil on Ilos silly? He was a blurry VI that gave you the entire story in a couple seconds. What part of the star child made you say NO BIOWARE THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER?
    Because he took the form of that little kid who was killed when Shepard escaped earth. The same little kid that she dreams about 3 times. That's what irritated me. It was too much. It made no sense, why would the VI take form of that particular kid and how would it even know what that kid looks like?

    Vigil made sense, it was a VI left behind by the Protheans as a warning and I'd assume that he'd take the form of a Prothean like Vendetta does if he wasn't so damaged. Vigil had a few plot surprises (OMG! THE CITADEL IS A MASS RELAY!!!!!) but rather than adding more questions to the game, the plot surprises answer questions. Why is Saren so interested in the Conduit? Because it'll get him to the Citadel where he can activate it and usher in the Reaper invasion. Now it makes sense.

    Shepard being rebuilt at the start of ME2 is believable because life is a chemical reaction. An extremely complex chemical reaction, but a chemical reaction. I think it is very plausible that life can be created, that the dead can, with the right technology, be brought back. Now, would it be ethical? Would it even be the same person? Those are questions for another time, questions Shepard hints at later, asking if she's just a VI who think's she's Shepard (asked on Kronos Station.) Our bodies are organic machines, why can't they be rebuilt with advanced technology?
    Last edited by Adam Jensen; 2012-06-24 at 02:21 AM.

    If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

  5. #8005
    Honestly I find all this whining and complaining about the ending to be completely disrespectful. To all of you who think that they could've written a better ending...you couldn't have because only the original writers can make the ending that is best for their personal piece of storytelling. Did the endings kinda suck... yeah, but you know what I can still accept these as the endings. Try growing up and learning to accept a story's ending for what it is. Eddard Stark isn't coming back, nor is Doodle, just accept the ending as it is...You're making us look bad. Try showing some respect for once for the people who spent YEARS of their lives day in and day out producing the best damn product they could. Now they come out and say that they would like to give some more insight because the ending was vague...you should be THANKING them for their generosity. Authors of other medium cannot do that (honestly nor should they except for Ayn Rand's Anthem that got lost in the wording). No matter how "personally" attached (and I use that term VERY lightly because a human being should never become so vehemently attached to something so fragile as a couple of lines of code which is all your game save file is btw) you are to your ephemeral digital avatar it was never your story to begin with it was always Bioware's. /rant

  6. #8006
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sengel View Post
    Honestly I find all this whining and complaining about the ending to be completely disrespectful. To all of you who think that they could've written a better ending...you couldn't have because only the original writers can make the ending that is best for their personal piece of storytelling. Did the endings kinda suck... yeah, but you know what I can still accept these as the endings. Try growing up and learning to accept a story's ending for what it is. Eddard Stark isn't coming back, nor is Doodle, just accept the ending as it is...You're making us look bad. Try showing some respect for once for the people who spent YEARS of their lives day in and day out producing the best damn product they could. Now they come out and say that they would like to give some more insight because the ending was vague...you should be THANKING them for their generosity. Authors of other medium cannot do that (honestly nor should they except for Ayn Rand's Anthem that got lost in the wording). No matter how "personally" attached (and I use that term VERY lightly because a human being should never become so vehemently attached to something so fragile as a couple of lines of code which is all your game save file is btw) you are to your ephemeral digital avatar it was never your story to begin with it was always Bioware's. /rant
    I'm not being disrespectful, on the contrary, ME3 is one of my favorite games. But I am allowed to criticize the end. . . or any other part of the game for that matter.

    If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

  7. #8007
    High Overlord skyburn1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    What he says does exist, its just not evidence of the AI inhabiting the Citadel. This is like claiming nostrodamus talking about "brothers" must obviously mean the twin towers. It's matching vague words after the fact to see what you want to see. Its a fairly common method of lazy thinking.
    While I've found an AI inhabiting the Citadel in Mass Effect 1, and it's arguments are basically the same as Starchild's in Mass Effect 3, and it's motivations aren't really different (reach out to the geth and try to investigate the rumors of a giant spaceship far more advanced than any other at the time), there's still a good chance it isn't EXACTLY connected to the ending in Mass Effect 3. Or maybe we all skipped the assignment to neutralize it in our playthroughs and that goddamned AI is the Starchild. Bazinga. Or not.
    Yes, I am being silly. Or at least trying to.

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    This argument I don't understand. Why is the star child any more bloody silly than a race of blue seductresses? Or bird men? or fantastic gel that can heal you from start to finish? or guns that don't need ammo at first but then later need ammo? Or bringing a man back from the dead? You've had to swallow so many incredulities over the years ONLY NOW you get indignant about the whole thing. Was Vigil on Ilos silly? He was a blurry VI that gave you the entire story in a couple seconds. What part of the star child made you say NO BIOWARE THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER?
    What they dislike about the starchild is that, while we could ask Vigil for information on most stuff there, we can't get good/reasonable explanations from the child, specially in the hows or whys of the problem.

  8. #8008
    Quote Originally Posted by orissa View Post
    Because he took the form of that little kid who was killed when Shepard escaped earth. The same little kid that she dreams about 3 times. That's what irritated me. It was too much. It made no sense, why would the VI take form of that particular kid and how would it even know what that kid looks like?

    Vigil made sense, it was a VI left behind by the Protheans as a warning and I'd assume that he'd take the form of a Prothean like Vendetta does if he wasn't so damaged. Vigil had a few plot surprises (OMG! THE CITADEL IS A MASS RELAY!!!!!) but rather than adding more questions to the game, the plot surprises answer questions. Why is Saren so interested in the Conduit? Because it'll get him to the Citadel where he can activate it and usher in the Reaper invasion. Now it makes sense.

    Shepard being rebuilt at the start of ME2 is believable because life is a chemical reaction. An extremely complex chemical reaction, but a chemical reaction. I think it is very plausible that life can be created, that the dead can, with the right technology, be brought back. Now, would it be ethical? Would it even be the same person? Those are questions for another time, questions Shepard hints at later, asking if she's just a VI who think's she's Shepard (asked on Kronos Station.) Our bodies are organic machines, why can't they be rebuilt with advanced technology?

    Vigil only makes sense because you can investigate with vigil and get all kinds of neat back story. That was the biggest problem with the star child, he lacks the depth that you got with Vigil. Again all of that, that you accept is explained very well in the game while the star child is not. Like the rebuilding of Shepard they go over in detail throughout the course of the game and eventually it sits will with you. So in both concept and execution it's great. However the star child while IMO a great concept (just like Vigil on Ilos) it was poorly executed (unlike Vigil on Ilos).

  9. #8009
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    This argument I don't understand. Why is the star child any more bloody silly than a race of blue seductresses? Or bird men? or fantastic gel that can heal you from start to finish? or guns that don't need ammo at first but then later need ammo? Or bringing a man back from the dead? You've had to swallow so many incredulities over the years ONLY NOW you get indignant about the whole thing. Was Vigil on Ilos silly? He was a blurry VI that gave you the entire story in a couple seconds. What part of the star child made you say NO BIOWARE THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER?
    Blue seductresses - just a species taking advantage of their looks. Nothing new to see here.

    Bird men - Aliens, period. There's lots of them in the ME universe if you hadn't noticed.

    Fantastic gel - new technology that I consider analogous to a bandage and ointment. Helps close wounds and dull pain, doesn't magically make wounds disappear, as can be seen in certain Paragon interrupts that involve Shepard giving someone medigel. Keeps them alive and dulls pain until help arrives, nothing more.

    Guns - improvements in technology. Nothing new to see here, either. Geth realized the weapon technology could be improved, so they improved it, and organics soon followed suit.

    Bringing a man (or woman) back from the dead - been over this before. I see this is new technology combined with limitless resources and a woman who says "Fuck the impossible, I'm doing it."

    Vigil - it made sense, it answered questions, it revealed answers to questions one likely had for the majority of the game, and it gave more depth to the story.

    Starchild - Thrown at you from left field, presents you with three options that you have to take, without even so much as the opportunity to question why you have to take them or what will happen. Yes, you had limited time, but Shepard could've at least been like "Dafuq are you, dafuq is this, dafuq am I doing here, dafuq dafuq?!" It was the fact that it was options forced on you completely out of the blue with little to no explanation other than "Because I'm blue da ba de," and left me with more questions than I started with that annoyed me. I'm hoping the DLC on tuesday will help make the Starchild less of an object I'd like to slowly tear apart with pliers.

  10. #8010
    Quote Originally Posted by skyburn1 View Post
    While I've found an AI inhabiting the Citadel in Mass Effect 1, and it's arguments are basically the same as Starchild's in Mass Effect 3, and it's motivations aren't really different (reach out to the geth and try to investigate the rumors of a giant spaceship far more advanced than any other at the time), there's still a good chance it isn't EXACTLY connected to the ending in Mass Effect 3. Or maybe we all skipped the assignment to neutralize it in our playthroughs and that goddamned AI is the Starchild. Bazinga. Or not.
    Yes, I am being silly. Or at least trying to.



    What they dislike about the starchild is that, while we could ask Vigil for information on most stuff there, we can't get good/reasonable explanations from the child, specially in the hows or whys of the problem.
    And I agree with that. The star child lacks depth. The concept itself is fantastic IMO and again much like Vigil on Ilos, it was just very poorly executed.

  11. #8011
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sengel View Post
    Honestly I find all this whining and complaining about the ending to be completely disrespectful. To all of you who think that they could've written a better ending...you couldn't have because only the original writers can make the ending that is best for their personal piece of storytelling. Did the endings kinda suck... yeah, but you know what I can still accept these as the endings. Try growing up and learning to accept a story's ending for what it is. Eddard Stark isn't coming back, nor is Doodle, just accept the ending as it is...You're making us look bad. Try showing some respect for once for the people who spent YEARS of their lives day in and day out producing the best damn product they could. Now they come out and say that they would like to give some more insight because the ending was vague...you should be THANKING them for their generosity. Authors of other medium cannot do that (honestly nor should they except for Ayn Rand's Anthem that got lost in the wording). No matter how "personally" attached (and I use that term VERY lightly because a human being should never become so vehemently attached to something so fragile as a couple of lines of code which is all your game save file is btw) you are to your ephemeral digital avatar it was never your story to begin with it was always Bioware's. /rant

    Umm, Actually as a person who has paid good money for a piece of entertainment I am allowed to criticizes any and all of it. If i think Indian Jones part 4 dances with aliens was a bad movie I can say so, if I think the end of Mass Effect 3 was the worst ending to a major Sci-Fi series and basically ruined the game I can say so.

    I can see you will sit through something even if you do not like it, and you will not say it s**ked when it is clear that it does, but do not tell others they can not state how they felt about something especially it it was pure and unadulterated crap. Many people felt this way about the End of Mass Effect 3 (Pointless Shooter with dreams of being an RPG set in space with the worst ending to a Sci-Fi since Alien 4). So yah, lets make this clear ME3 sucked monkey B***s. Of course to top off the bad ending Bioware in response to it's criticism said "...Exec Producer Casey Hudson and the team are hard at work on a number of game content initiatives that will help answer the questions, providing more clarity for those seeking further closure to their journey. You’ll hear more on this in April. We’re working hard to maintain the right balance between the artistic integrity of the original story while addressing the fan feedback we’ve received."

    What they basically said here and in several places was that fans didn't understand the ending to Mass Effect 3. That is actually known as a backhanded insult. Which frankly did insult me and a lot of others who understood the ending and felt it was "loc na mhuice".

    I could go in to a dozen reasons why.

    RPG style game, with an Action adventure style ending.
    No final boss fight
    Inconsistencies and plot holes
    Star Child <- WTF you meet the god of the reapers /facepalm
    You can't tell the star child to go f*** off

    Can I write better dribble than that shit yes, and I do not claim to be a writer for a video game company famous for good writing.

    ---------- Post added 2012-06-23 at 08:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    This argument I don't understand. Why is the star child any more bloody silly than a race of blue seductresses? Or bird men? or fantastic gel that can heal you from start to finish? or guns that don't need ammo at first but then later need ammo? Or bringing a man back from the dead? You've had to swallow so many incredulities over the years ONLY NOW you get indignant about the whole thing. Was Vigil on Ilos silly? He was a blurry VI that gave you the entire story in a couple seconds. What part of the star child made you say NO BIOWARE THIS FAR AND NO FURTHER?
    Ok Here is a simple way to understand good writing from bad writing.

    Did you set up a Protagonist? Shepard
    Did you set up an Antagonist? Reapers
    Did the story lead up to a final confrontation between the Protagonist and the Antagonist? No at the last moment Bioware switches to a conversation with a new Antagonist, who the Protagonist doesn't disagree with. /thread
    Last edited by Gothicshark; 2012-06-24 at 03:32 AM.

  12. #8012
    Quote Originally Posted by Sengel View Post
    To all of you who think that they could've written a better ending...
    We don't "think" they could, we know they did. The original ending, the one related to the dark energy, the one they removed due a leak... search it up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sengel View Post
    Try growing up and learning to accept a story's ending for what it is.
    People are childish for expressing their opinions? What would that make of someone who gives his opinion about others opinions? (AKA whining about whiners)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sengel View Post
    You're making us look bad.
    Who is making you look bad and why? I don't understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sengel View Post
    you should be THANKING them for their generosity.
    Wrong, gaming industry is not about generosity, it's about business.
    They made a game, people bought the game, people told them what they think about the game ~
    That is all...

  13. #8013
    Pit Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Didnt we already have this conversation? Reading thru the last few post is giving me a sense of deja vu.

  14. #8014
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    Didnt we already have this conversation? Reading thru the last few post is giving me a sense of deja vu.
    404 pages, conversations are bound to repeat themselves. Several times. lol

  15. #8015
    It makes sense in a way the ending discussion is being regurgitated once more now that the extended cut is only two days away, but that doesn't it from being incredibly silly.

    Now discussing the new content after having played through it. That makes more sense.

  16. #8016
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmwing View Post
    It makes sense in a way the ending discussion is being regurgitated once more now that the extended cut is only two days away, but that doesn't it from being incredibly silly.

    Now discussing the new content after having played through it. That makes more sense.
    Why is it silly? If people want to discuss it further, let 'em.

  17. #8017
    Pit Lord Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moontalon View Post
    Why is it silly? If people want to discuss it further, let 'em.
    I have to agree it is silly....because its a dead horse that has been resurrected and killed, and then zombified and killed. Nothing new ever comes up in those conversations I feel.

  18. #8018
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaelwryn View Post
    I have to agree it is silly....because its a dead horse that has been resurrected and killed, and then zombified and killed. Nothing new ever comes up in those conversations I feel.
    Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. This thread probably gets a bunch of new readers a day that haven't seen said conversations further back in the thread, and hey, maybe they'd like to join in.

  19. #8019
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Ok Here is a simple way to understand good writing from bad writing.

    Did you set up a Protagonist? Shepard
    Did you set up an Antagonist? Reapers
    Did the story lead up to a final confrontation between the Protagonist and the Antagonist? No at the last moment Bioware switches to a conversation with a new Antagonist, who the Protagonist doesn't disagree with. /thread
    Diablo 3 has all of those and is probably the worst written story in a video game ever IMO. Yes the star child could have used better execution but the concept of it is sound and you've talked to plenty of spooky AIs in the past. Your list doesn't seperate good from bad as I could name any number of Hollywood movies built on that formula that sucked balls.

  20. #8020
    Practice makes perfect.
    Soon bioware will be reading MMO-C in addition to the other networks for information and userfeedback.

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