1. #14061
    To the point of Vigil being a deus ex machina....LOL.


    Vigil never solved a problem. Vigil didn't resolve the conflict and story. Vigil, like a character, gave the player information that led to a conclusion.

  2. #14062
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It is funny how all the Prothean VI's are Deus Ex Machina. Just when Shepard needed answers in Mass Effect 3 we learn of a prothean VI that holds all of them.
    Yea it's everywhere in the game. I wasn't really that surprised they used it at the end but I was still on the edge of my seat. It was still rather well executed from a atmosphere stand point.

  3. #14063
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    The star kid is by the very definition of a deus ex machina. How many more posts are you going to post that I have to continually prove wrong?
    He isn't introduced unexpectedly with the ability to save the day. The Crucible is what is saving the day. The Catalyst (Star Child) is explaining why the crucible is able to save the day. The Catalyst isn't a god that is deciding the final outcome, Shepard decides. The Catalyst hasn't appeared suddenly or unexpectedly because we knew the Catalyst was the Citadel and that it was going to be part of the Crucible design to stop the reapers.

    The Catalyst appearing as a child holographic projection was unexpected and sudden. But that doesn't make it a Deus Ex Machina because he isn't the only saving the day and providing the solution. He is only the one providing information about the Solution Shepard provided (by opening the Citadel and allowing the crucible to dock). With or with out the holographic image of a child the crucible still would have functioned the same way according to the story.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  4. #14064
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    This entire argument about whether or not Bioware should fix the ending is played out to the point of not even worth bringing up, to be honest. They're not changing it. Let it go.

  5. #14065
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    To the point of Vigil being a deus ex machina....LOL.


    Vigil never solved a problem. Vigil didn't resolve the conflict and story. Vigil, like a character, gave the player information that led to a conclusion.
    Vigil solved the problem of the reapers coming through by giving Shepard the code to block the signal from the keepers. He also solved the problem of how do we get back to the citadel in time to stop sovereign.

  6. #14066
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    The kid was introduced to solve the problem in the last 5 minutes of the game.
    The kid is the catalyst and we learn on Thessia that the catalyst is key to the crucible's design. We later learn that the Citadel is somehow the catalyst when we assault Cerberus Head Quarters. Only the holographic projection is introduced in the last 5 minutes but the Catalyst has always been the key making the Crucible function and as the way to solve the problem.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  7. #14067
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Vigil solved the problem of the reapers coming through by giving Shepard the code to block the signal from the keepers. He also solved the problem of how do we get back to the citadel in time to stop sovereign.

    You cannot be serious with that garbage logic.


    Vigil is first not a god like figure who waves his hand and concludes the story, unlike the catalyst.

    Vigil also does not resolve the conflict between Shepard and Sovereign, unlike the catalyst and the reapers.

  8. #14068
    Holy jesus balls Praetorians are annoying.

  9. #14069
    Elemental Lord Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    I agree it could have been executed better. The best part about Vigil IMO was that you could interact with him alot more and get more depth out of him than the star kid. If the interaction with the star kid was on the same level as vigil it wouldn't sit so bad in peoples minds I feel. The EC did alot for that actually.
    Yeah, unfortunately for me, the way you choose your ending broke the immersion I had. And I would of liked to be able to confront the star-kid on it's weak logic (and perhaps turned the ending into something more enjoyable), I mean I sat there totally dumbfounded by how weak the reasoning was.

    At least I can shoot the star-kid now, but that ending feels mostly like a slap in the face to be honest. It doesn't address the issue I had.

    But I've moved on, and I never affiliated myself with those who "demanded" a new ending (if you're wondering), but I did try and get my opinion heard.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  10. #14070
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Vigil never solved a problem. Vigil didn't resolve the conflict and story. Vigil, like a character, gave the player information that led to a conclusion.
    Have you even played the games? Because Shepard had to find a way to get onto the Citadel. And guess who pops out of no where to say that there is a secret transporter to do just that.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  11. #14071
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    You cannot be serious with that garbage logic.


    Vigil is first not a god like figure who waves his hand and concludes the story, unlike the catalyst.

    Vigil also does not resolve the conflict between Shepard and Sovereign, unlike the catalyst and the reapers.
    Without Vigil, Sovereign would have won.

  12. #14072
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Yeah, unfortunately for me, the way you choose your ending broke the immersion I had. And I would of liked to be able to confront the star-kid on it's weak logic (and perhaps turned the ending into something more enjoyable), I mean I sat there totally dumbfounded by how weak the reasoning was.

    At least I can shoot the star-kid now, but that ending feels mostly like a slap in the face to be honest. It doesn't address the issue I had.

    But I've moved on, and I never affiliated myself with those who "demanded" a new ending (if you're wondering), but I did try and get my opinion heard.


    The reasoning came from a side quest in Mass Effect 1.


    The catalyst introduced a new conflict within the last 5 minutes, which is why he is so sorely hated. For 2 games and 99% of the 3rd, the conflict was stopping the reapers against all odds. The last 1% was some convoluted organics versus synthetics mumbo jumbo.

  13. #14073
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    You cannot be serious with that garbage logic.


    Vigil is first not a god like figure who waves his hand and concludes the story, unlike the catalyst.

    Vigil also does not resolve the conflict between Shepard and Sovereign, unlike the catalyst and the reapers.
    First of all your changing criteria once again. We were talking about the star child now were talking about the catalyst. The catalyst is not a god like figure nor is the star child. Shepard concludes the story by making his final decisions. Furthermore you know about the catalyst the entire game and it has always been the objective you sought out to resolve the reaper conflict. It's not a surprise that's what it was designed to do.

  14. #14074
    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly Willy View Post
    Without Vigil, Sovereign would have won.
    Without the Normandy, Sovereign would have won.

    Normandy is a deus ex machina guyz!

  15. #14075
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    You cannot be serious with that garbage logic. Vigil is first not a god like figure who waves his hand and concludes the story, unlike the catalyst. Vigil also does not resolve the conflict between Shepard and Sovereign, unlike the catalyst and the reapers.
    The Star child doesn't wave his hand and conclude the story. The Crucible does that by simply docking with the Citadel. The star child does nothing but tell us what the Crucible is doing. Neither are sudden or unexpected to the resolution of the problem. We've known that the Catalyst and Crucible will solve the problem of the Reapers since the start of the game so that isn't unexpected either.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  16. #14076
    Warchief WarpedAcorn's Avatar
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    This has been discussed to death for well over a year. But since we're doing it...

    My biggest grip about the ending of ME3 is the introduction of the Star Brat. Had the concept of his existance been introduced earlier or hinted at, then it might have held together. And no, I don't consider the AI taking the form of a child Shepard was torn up over as "introduced earlier". I am still all for having a dialogue ending with no boss fight, that is ok. But I would have preferred to have a conversation with...Harbinger. Shepard, bleeding out, and Harbinger destroying the fleet would engage in a final philosophical debate. The choices would remain, but Harbinger would attempt to sway and reason with Shepard, maybe even taunting him at times. Ultimately, there would be one final "tough choice" to make, but it would be with a familiar antagonist.

    I've seen a lot of really good alternative endings people have come up with, and most all trump the ending that the game shipped with. But the one thing that I disagree with above all is that Shepard should have a chance to live. In my opinion, for the story to work, Shepard has to die by the end. Hopefully his death is a noble sacrifice, but the rammifications of Shepard surviving are just too great.

  17. #14077
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    The reasoning came from a side quest in Mass Effect 1.


    The catalyst introduced a new conflict within the last 5 minutes, which is why he is so sorely hated. For 2 games and 99% of the 3rd, the conflict was stopping the reapers against all odds. The last 1% was some convoluted organics versus synthetics mumbo jumbo.
    He didn't introduce a new conflict in the last 5 minutes. It's the same conflict that's been a central theme of mass effect since the first game. Technological singularity. Organics vs synthetics has been around since mass effect 1. In fact that's the biggest problem I have with the start child. You should be able to at least sue for peace between them like you did on Rannoch. You should be able to say look what I did with the geth and quarians. Nothing new is added though. Theirs no mumbo jmbo. If you haven't been paying attention to the story (as I strongly suspect you haven't after reading your posts) then I suggest you go back and go through it again.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-02-25 at 08:42 PM.

  18. #14078
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    You cannot be serious with that garbage logic.


    Vigil is first not a god like figure who waves his hand and concludes the story, unlike the catalyst.

    Vigil also does not resolve the conflict between Shepard and Sovereign, unlike the catalyst and the reapers.
    Just because old greek stories involved gods stopping the big problem doesn't make a god a crucial part of a deus ex machina, a deus ex machina is when a being appears out of nowhere and solves a problem, Vigil is a DEM, as he gives you the means of stopping the reapers from going through the citadel, the catalyst isn't, as he's not the problem solver, the crucible is.

  19. #14079
    Okay, scratch that, Collectors in general are annoying. And that was just a Silver. I'd hate to see them in Gold/Platinum.

  20. #14080
    Quote Originally Posted by leafs43 View Post
    Without the Normandy, Sovereign would have won.

    Normandy is a deus ex machina guyz!
    But the normandy isn't introduced at the end of the game, as it's one of the first things you see in the trilogy.

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