1. #14281
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    No it isn't, because the Citadel isn't required for the Crucible to fire.
    I said, and I quote myself "Citadel is required for Crucible to fire properly"
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  2. #14282
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Less "My body is My soul" mumbo jumbo please.
    It isn't mumbo jumbo. Its a fact of the game that you have to acknowledge if you want to discuss the game. The Catalyst, Citadel, and Star Child are all the same thing. If they Star Child never explained anything how did you know what Blue, Red, and Green meant? Just because he didn't explain what you wanted him to doesn't mean he didn't explain stuff.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 07:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I said, and I quote myself "Citadel is required for Crucible to fire properly"
    The Crucible can fire properly without the Catalyst. It just can't effect the entire galaxy.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  3. #14283
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It isn't mumbo jumbo. Its a fact of the game that you have to acknowledge if you want to discuss the game. The Catalyst, Citadel, and Star Child are all the same thing.
    It's not a fact, it's a stretch. The fact is - the Citadel is the Catalyst. Star child is just an AI that "lives" in it. Who fires Crucible? Shepard or Starchild? Shepard. Process is automatic after choosing the one of 3 options. If Shepard would've just told Starchild what he wanted to do and Starchild had fired the Crucible in the way Shepard asked - then and only then it would've been The Catalyst. But no Shepard needed to get physical.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If they Star Child never explained anything how did you know what Blue, Red, and Green meant? Just because he didn't explain what you wanted him to doesn't mean he didn't explain stuff.
    I don't know - labels? There are so many ways to convey THAT information.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The Crucible can fire properly without the Catalyst. It just can't effect the entire galaxy.
    Are you arguing my use of the word "properly" while ignoring the context it was used in?
    Stop.
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  4. #14284
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I don't know - labels? There are so many ways to convey THAT information.
    Pop up video. Handing you answers with as little thought along the way.

  5. #14285
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    It's not a fact, it's a stretch. The fact is - the Citadel is the Catalyst. Star child is just an AI that "lives" in it. Who fires Crucible? Shepard or Starchild? Shepard. Process is automatic after choosing the one of 3 options. If Shepard would've just told Starchild what he wanted to do and Starchild had fired the Crucible in the way Shepard asked - then and only then it would've been The Catalyst. But no Shepard needed to get physical.
    Shepard activates the Crucible, but it is the StarChild that allowed her to do so. Without the StarChild giving her those options, Shepard would not have been able to do anything. Without the StarChild, she wouldn't even have been able to get up there. In the end, the StarChild makes it all possible. He gives her a few choices. She cannot influence the choices, she can only make them.

    If you have the choice to go either left or right, does that mean you have full control of where you go? No, as you cannot choose any other direction then left and right. The people (the StarChild) that made those paths (the choices) are the ones that control your path.

    The Crucible does not require the Citadel/Catalyst to be fired, but it does require the Citadel and all of the Mass Relays to achieve what it was designed for; destroy Reapers across the entire galaxy.
    Statix will suffice.

  6. #14286
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    Pop up video. Handing you answers with as little thought along the way.
    Nope.
    A screen that shows text in species language - information is courtesy of Citadel's library.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 05:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Statix View Post
    Shepard activates the Crucible, but it is the StarChild that allowed her to do so. Without the StarChild giving her those options, Shepard would not have been able to do anything.
    Without Starchild Shepard would've just skipped the dialog and proceeded straight to Conduits. That is of course if Shepard could find the conduits on his own.
    Starchild doesn't "give" or "allow" anything. Crucible does.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-02-26 at 01:14 AM.
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  7. #14287
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Without Starchild Shepard would've just skipped the dialog and proceeded straight to Conduits. That is of course if Shepard could find the conduits on his own. Starchild doesn't "give" or "allow" anything. Crucible does.
    How can you say that? The Crucible needs the Catalyst to be effective, how can the StarChild, being the Catalyst, not have final say in what happens?

    Skip the dialog and proceed to the conduits? Shepard would have never found the conduits as she is taken up there by an elevator that has no activationcontrols. The StarChild brought her up there to tell her that new solutions were possible. He gives her the choices and allows her to decide the fate of the entire galaxy. But all choices are controlled by him, he decides what choices are made available to her.
    Statix will suffice.

  8. #14288


    Anyone else who can't wait to get their hands on that Bad Boy?
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  9. #14289
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Statix View Post
    How can you say that? The Crucible needs the Catalyst to be effective, how can the StarChild, being the Catalyst, not have final say in what happens?
    Citadel is the Catalyst. Crucible needs Citadel to fire properly (that is to cover the whole Galaxy of Mass Relays). Starchild is screwed by Crucible - that is why it "allows" you to proceed. Otherwise he would've killed you or rather let you die under the Citadel's Console.
    Quote Originally Posted by Statix View Post
    Skip the dialog and proceed to the conduits? Shepard would have never found the conduits as she is taken up there by an elevator that has no activationcontrols. The StarChild brought her up there to tell her that new solutions were possible. He gives her the choices and allows her to decide the fate of the entire galaxy. But all choices are controlled by him, he decides what choices are made available to her.
    Yes, that's exactly why we are debating "starchild is a deus ex machina" - he takes Shepard to conduits. But that doesn't mean he is needed to fire the Crucible. had Shepard not being injured that much - He would've found the Conduits. And fired. Trust me.
    Conduits are there regardless of Starchild. He gives nothing. He decides nothing. EMS decides. That's gameplay device, let's not confuse it with plot.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2013-02-26 at 01:25 AM.
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  10. #14290
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrus Vakarian View Post


    Anyone else who can't wait to get their hands on that Bad Boy?
    Wait wait wait wait wait.

    Is that a playable collector?

    If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

  11. #14291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Wait wait wait wait wait.

    Is that a playable collector?
    No it's Awakened Collector. he's gonna collect those frags.
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  12. #14292
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    It's not a fact, it's a stretch. The fact is - the Citadel is the Catalyst. Star child is just an AI that "lives" in it. Who fires Crucible? Shepard or Starchild? Shepard. Process is automatic after choosing the one of 3 options. If Shepard would've just told Starchild what he wanted to do and Starchild had fired the Crucible in the way Shepard asked - then and only then it would've been The Catalyst. But no Shepard needed to get physical.
    Shepard fires the crucible, so does that mean Shepard is the catalyst? The Star Child is an Avatar of an AI. An AI that is the Citadel. If the Citadel is the Catalyst then the Star Child is the Catalyst. Because the AI and the Citadel are the same thing.

    I don't know - labels? There are so many ways to convey THAT information.
    Like an AI that you can interact with? You really would have been fine with a label that had Destroy, Control, or Synthesis on it? You'd prefer that over an interactive computer program that could talk back to you and talk questions from you?
    Are you arguing my use of the word "properly" while ignoring the context it was used in?
    Stop.
    The context it was used in was the crucible being able to fire as a weapon. It can properly do that without the Catalyst.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 08:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    Wait wait wait wait wait.

    Is that a playable collector?
    Yes. They didn't cover it during the live stream because they wanted it to be a "hidden" character of the DLC. I put hidden in quotes because they just wanted its abilities and play style and stuff to be secret not the actual existence.
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  13. #14293
    Warchief Statix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Citadel is the Catalyst. Crucible needs Citadel to fire properly (that is to cover the whole Galaxy of Mass Relays). Starchild is screwed by Crucible - that is why it "allows" you to proceed. Otherwise he would've killed you or rather let you die under the Citadel's Console.

    Yes, that's exactly why we are debating "starchild is a deus ex machina" - he takes Shepard to conduits. But that doesn't mean he is needed to fire the Crucible. had Shepard not being injured that much - He would've found the Conduits. And fired. Trust me.
    Conduits are there regardless of Starchild. He gives nothing. He decides nothing. EMS decides. That's gameplay device, let's not confuse it with plot.
    I completely disagree that Shepard would have eventually found the conduits. There simply is no way. Yes, the Conduits are there regardless of the StarChild, but that does not mean they can be reached without his help.

    He is not needed to fire the Crucible, but to fulfill it's true purpose; to destroy all Reapers across the galaxy, he is required. The Crucible can fire without the Catalyst, but it simply would not even come close to being able to destroy Reapers across the galaxy. The Catalyst is needed to achieve that, but the Catalyst can not be used until the StarChild allows you too. I can't stress that enough. He clearly stated that his current solution is no longer possible. He cannot decide what new solution must be created, he can simply give her choices. As I said before, being able to make a choice does not mean you have full control of the situation.

    If your enemy tells you it's either surrender or war, are you really in full control? No, because someone in full control could ask for peace.
    Statix will suffice.

  14. #14294
    I've got an itch to play Mass Effect...I only have 1 and 2 but I haven't finished either, dunno why though I remember enjoying it.

  15. #14295
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Shepard fires the crucible, so does that mean Shepard is the catalyst? The Star Child is an Avatar of an AI. An AI that is the Citadel. If the Citadel is the Catalyst then the Star Child is the Catalyst. Because the AI and the Citadel are the same thing.
    Dooooh.... such a logic.
    Shepard fires Crucible means Starchild is not needed therefore not a Catalyst. Citadel is Catalyst. Shepard is just pulling the trigger. If Starchild was Citadel was Catalyst - Shepard would've not needed to move a finger to fire the Crucible.


    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Like an AI that you can interact with? You really would have been fine with a label that had Destroy, Control, or Synthesis on it? You'd prefer that over an interactive computer program that could talk back to you and talk questions from you?
    No I would love to have an interactive computer program over labels. It's just we got Starchild. And I prefer labels over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The context it was used in was the crucible being able to fire as a weapon. It can properly do that without the Catalyst.
    Nope. that's the consequences of you getting in the middle of an argument. It all began with me saying Starchild is not needed to fire Crucible. I got a reply that Crucible is not a weapon it's a energy source and Citadel is the real weapon. To which I reply that Crucible is not a battery, though it needs Citadel to fire properly. Thus explaining the Crucible/Citadel relationship in firing it all over the Galaxy.

    And even if it weren't the case - your implication is insulting. You're basically implying that I'm stupid to not know that Crucible can fire by itself.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-26 at 05:44 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Statix View Post
    I completely disagree that Shepard would have eventually found the conduits. There simply is no way. Yes, the Conduits are there regardless of the StarChild, but that does not mean they can be reached without his help.
    he would've.
    1. There's that lift
    2. There are keeper tunnels.
    3. He could've disabled gravity and float up there.
    4. I can go on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Statix View Post
    He is not needed to fire the Crucible, but to fulfill it's true purpose; to destroy all Reapers across the galaxy, he is required. The Crucible can fire without the Catalyst, but it simply would not even come close to being able to destroy Reapers across the galaxy. The Catalyst is needed to achieve that, but the Catalyst can not be used until the StarChild allows you too. I can't stress that enough. He clearly stated that his current solution is no longer possible. He cannot decide what new solution must be created, he can simply give her choices. As I said before, being able to make a choice does not mean you have full control of the situation.

    If your enemy tells you it's either surrender or war, are you really in full control? No, because someone in full control could ask for peace.
    He has solutions because you attached Crucible to Citadel. You invalidated his "solution" and provided new solutions. YOU DID.. (Well not Shepard personally it was a team effort)
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  16. #14296
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    I've got an itch to play Mass Effect...I only have 1 and 2 but I haven't finished either, dunno why though I remember enjoying it.
    Do it...you won't regret it at all. Great Games!
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  17. #14297
    Warchief Statix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    he would've.
    1. There's that lift
    2. There are keeper tunnels.
    3. He could've disabled gravity and float up there.
    4. I can go on.

    He has solutions because you attached Crucible to Citadel. You invalidated his "solution" and provided new solutions. YOU DID.. (Well not Shepard personally it was a team effort)
    FFS, deleted my previous post by mistake when trying to delete a double post... Guess I'll type it again.

    Operate the lift, disable gravity? When did Shepard become an expert in controlling the Citadel? If she was able to that in a matter of minutes, don't you think other races (e.g. the Protheans) would have been able to find that same room in the millions of years they lived on the Citadel?

    Keeper tunnels of Keepers in the tunnels? I don't think Keepers would help Shepard, they don't even communicate with anyone. As for tunnels, I know nothing about tunnels, if that is what you mean. Either way, I don't think she'd miraculously find those tunnels because she needs them, while all those other races over millions of years did not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Schmittay View Post
    I've got an itch to play Mass Effect...I only have 1 and 2 but I haven't finished either, dunno why though I remember enjoying it.
    I had an itch aswell shortly after being introduced to the story while playing ME3's demo. I later found out I played the demo of ME2 aswell, but that didn't make me wanna play the games. I started my playthrough of ME1 and after completing it, I quickly moved on to ME2. When I was done with the first planet and stood face to face with having to scan every single planet in the galaxy for elements, I stopped playing.

    It wasn't until 10 months later that I finally decided to finish ME2 and start ME3. Completed both in three weeks and even though the endings weren't what I was hoping for, it was an amazing experience. I definitely recommened finishing the games and starting ME3.
    Last edited by Statix; 2013-02-26 at 02:23 AM.
    Statix will suffice.

  18. #14298
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Dooooh.... such a logic.
    Shepard fires Crucible means Starchild is not needed therefore not a Catalyst. Citadel is Catalyst. Shepard is just pulling the trigger. If Starchild was Citadel was Catalyst - Shepard would've not needed to move a finger to fire the Crucible.
    Shepard still has to do stuff because Shepard is the key to the reaction. Shepard having to do things doesn't make him the Catalyst. So why would the Star Child being the Citadel require the Star child to do something? The Star child is part of the Citadel just like EDI is part of the Normandy. You can have the engineers have this very debate on board the Normandy if you walk in on their conversation.

    I know your logic is confusing. The Star child can only be the catalyst if he is the one to pull the trigger. But you bring sarcasm when I ask you if Shepard is the catalyst if he pulls the trigger. You can't have it both ways either the Catalyst pulls the trigger or it doesn't.

    No I would love to have an interactive computer program over labels. It's just we got Starchild. And I prefer labels over it.
    The Star Child is an interactive computer program. Just because he doesn't tell you what you want to hear doesn't make him any less of interactive.

    To which I reply that Crucible is not a battery, though it needs Citadel to fire properly.
    It needs the Catalyst to stop the Reaper threat. It doesn't need the catalyst to fire properly. It can work just fine without the Catalyst. The energy it fires just wouldn't be amplified and wouldn't go very far. To say it can only fire properly with the Catalyst is saying that it is broken with out it. You aren't using properly correctly which is where the confusion is occurring.

    And even if it weren't the case - your implication is insulting. You're basically implying that I'm stupid to not know that Crucible can fire by itself.
    No I'm not. I'm saying you aren't using the word properly correctly. If you want to insult yourself by all means go right ahead, but I'm not calling you stupid or implying it.

    ---------- Post added 2013-02-25 at 10:17 PM ----------

    http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/to...index/16026814

    I hope its a new class and weapon. Cause I don't play enough to farm millions of credits and still have to many weapons and classes to unlock to justify stockpiling
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  19. #14299
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/to...index/16026814

    I hope its a new class and weapon. Cause I don't play enough to farm millions of credits and still have to many weapons and classes to unlock to justify stockpiling
    Same here. I don't think I've ever had above 200k at any given point on MP. Plus I mainly play on silver and bronze so the credits come in much more slowly for me than for people who farm gold and platinum.

  20. #14300
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post

    [/COLOR]http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/to...index/16026814

    I hope its a new class and weapon. Cause I don't play enough to farm millions of credits and still have to many weapons and classes to unlock to justify stockpiling
    Free gift pack is nice.

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