1. #16021
    Scarab Lord Puck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    You believe too much in the reapers. Destroy was the only way to remove them completely. To remove any influence. to become free we had to remove the Reapers who declared themselves on the level of a natural disaster, they thought they couldn't be stopped, it was just a part of life. They never gave the galaxy the chance. They were just as selfish and foolish as the leviathans that made them. Well Shepard proved them wrong. While yes some races might break out into war again the chances are they will face a already united Galaxy...just like the Reapers did....and failed.
    The Reapers only failed because you beat them with superior technology. What happens when organics create Synthetic beings that are even more advanced, then say, the crucible?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-29 at 05:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    We built the crucible, maybe we can build a catalyst.
    Then you may as well have picked Control.

  2. #16022
    Quote Originally Posted by Javik View Post
    The Reapers only failed because you beat them with superior technology. What happens when organics create Synthetic beings that are even more advanced, then say, the crucible?
    If its more advanced then the crucible then I doubt it gives a fuck about whatever a organic does.
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  3. #16023
    Legendary! Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javik View Post
    The Reapers only failed because you beat them with superior technology. What happens when organics create Synthetic beings that are even more advanced, then say, the crucible?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-29 at 05:33 PM ----------



    Then you may as well have picked Control.
    Why? Im just using them as a giant ass robot killing super gun.
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  4. #16024
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    If its more advanced then the crucible then I doubt it gives a fuck about whatever a organic does.
    It just means they have even less use for their creators. Hell, advanced organic civilizations don't even need synthetic life to bring about their own extinction, take the Grey Goo Scenario. for example.
    Last edited by Puck; 2013-03-30 at 02:44 AM.

  5. #16025
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    According to the Reapers! I proved them wrong by uniting the Geth and the Quarians. It's all hot robosexual love in my universe.
    If it was a simple as finding peace between one group of synthetic life and one group of organics don't you think it would have happened after a million cycles? The problem is that it doesn't take just one group to peacefully coexist, as the Leviathans state, it takes all of them. Because before the cycle the Leviathans saw that conflict would break out again even if one is brought to peace.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-29 at 10:50 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by skitzin View Post
    And the catalyst also stated it was unsure what to do now that one person finally rocked up to its hiding place. It then goes on to note it is incapable of change with out intervention. So it is quite limited in its own abilities. Not to mention that this conclusion it has been operating on for eons is based solely on one set of data when it was first made. So how the hell could it know that peace doesn't last? If anything peace doesn't last BECAUSE the catalyst sends in the reapers to kill them.
    Because it has been collecting data for millions of years. It has implemented different solutions to try to fix the problem but the conclusion was always the same. Remember the Catalyst states that it has tried Synthesis before but it didn't work. It has operated based on parameters when it was created but it has not been blind to everything that has happened since.

    Nothing indicates that every cycle was always 50,000 years. And that the Catalyst settled on that time frame from the very first cycle and never tried other solutions. The reason why he says his current solutions won't work is because organics have reached him, and actually put the crucibles plan into motion. The catalyst knows that they can not destroy all traces of the past because of the Crucible plans still existing when he thought they were destroyed for ever.

    He might of also been able to read Shepards mind some how and saw that a smart Asari named Liara made sure that the status quo won't work. (We know that the AI has limited telepathy since he took a form of something from Shepards mind. Though it is possible Shepard documented it or was eavesdropped on).
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  6. #16026
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If it was a simple as finding peace between one group of synthetic life and one group of organics don't you think it would have happened after a million cycles? The problem is that it doesn't take just one group to peacefully coexist, as the Leviathans state, it takes all of them. Because before the cycle the Leviathans saw that conflict would break out again even if one is brought to peace.
    But part of that problem was them to begin with. The was the very conclusion the catalyst reached.

    Since then it has been harvesting races at point prior to such a conflict as means of preventing it from killing off entire species. So it actually has no idea what would happen if it sat back did nothing and whether the geth/quarian peace was an exception.

  7. #16027
    Scarab Lord Puck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitzin View Post
    But part of that problem was them to begin with. The was the very conclusion the catalyst reached.

    Since then it has been harvesting races at point prior to such a conflict as means of preventing it from killing off entire species. So it actually has no idea what would happen if it sat back did nothing and whether the geth/quarian peace was an exception.
    It is a shackled AI, it is unable to see past its own doctrine. Of course it believes that no matter what the outcome will be the same, that is how it was created. It comes down to wether or not you believe technological singularity is a thing or not. If you don't then take a gamble and shoot the tube, if you do then pick the other two. I personally do believe in technological singularity, we are already starting to see it in the human race today. We are developing dangerous technologies capable of wiping us out, it is only a matter of time until someone screws up.

    Stephen Hawking even discusses a possible reason as to why we've never seen other intelligent civilizations, the answer is that they ultimately end up destroying themselves before they achieve the means to reach us.
    Last edited by Puck; 2013-03-30 at 03:00 AM.

  8. #16028
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    You believe too much in the reapers. Destroy was the only way to remove them completely. To remove any influence. to become free we had to remove the Reapers who declared themselves on the level of a natural disaster, they thought they couldn't be stopped, it was just a part of life. They never gave the galaxy the chance. They were just as selfish and foolish as the leviathans that made them. Well Shepard proved them wrong. While yes some races might break out into war again the chances are they will face a already united Galaxy...just like the Reapers did....and failed.
    The Reapers without the Catalyst are no longer a singular force. Remember each one is a nation of their civilizations harvested during the cycle. They do have some individual personality as we've seen through interaction with a few Reapers. The reason why they obeyed without question and had one single purpose is because they were slaves to the Catalyst. This is why Control ending does stop the Reapers. Because they are now a slave to "Shepard". It is possible that Shepard after a million years would take the same path after seeing countless examples. Or it is possible, if a renegade, that Control will result in Shepard destroying all life.

    Also the reapers by definition can not be selfish because they hold no emotion for their task. The Catalyst wasn't using the cycle as a way to stay in power, to control the galaxy, or to further his own agenda. If he had a solution that would mean the end to the cycle he would have gladly accepted it. This is indicated in how it shows anger when you refuse to initiate one of better solutions (by shooting him or refusing him).

    The interesting part is that Liara ensures the galaxy will face those same 3 choices. And we know that 1 of those 3 choices was implemented because her warning implies the reapers are stopped.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-29 at 10:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Landin55 View Post
    If its more advanced then the crucible then I doubt it gives a fuck about whatever a organic does.
    It wouldn't care if an organic tried to kill it and commit genocide against its race?
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  9. #16029
    Herald of the Titans Yakobro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Javik View Post
    It just means they have even less use for their creators. Hell, advanced organic civilizations don't even need synthetic life to bring about their own extinction, take the Grey Goo Scenario. for example.

  10. #16030
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitzin View Post
    Since then it has been harvesting races at point prior to such a conflict as means of preventing it from killing off entire species. So it actually has no idea what would happen if it sat back did nothing and whether the geth/quarian peace was an exception.
    And what is to say that it wouldn't hold off the cycle for a little bit if it saw a promising coexistence of the species? We know that the Reapers do not attack blindly and have a vanguard that comes early or stays the entire time. If the Geth and Quarians came to a peaceful coexistence who is to say that the Reapers would have invaded when they did? They could have delayed the cycle by a few hundred or a thousand years to see if peace happened in this case.

    Yes they never let the cycle's play out past a certain point. But to call them a problem assumes that they are basing their data on only the chaos during the time of the levithans. There were, I believe, over a million cycles. That is a lot of time for the Reapers to see and collect data and see the patterns in the data. You can't say that they were the problem of organics vs synthetics without having access to that same data.
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  11. #16031
    Quote Originally Posted by Javik View Post
    It is a shackled AI, it is unable to see past its own doctrine. Of course it believes that no matter what the outcome will be the same, that is how it was created. It comes down to wether or not you believe technological singularity is a thing or not. If you don't then take a gamble and shoot the tube, if you do then pick the other two. I personally do believe in technological singularity, we are already starting to see it in the human race today. We are developing dangerous technologies capable of wiping us out, it is only a matter of time until someone screws up.

    Stephen Hawking even discusses a possible reason as to why we've never seen other intelligent civilizations, the answer is that they ultimately end up destroying themselves before they achieve the means to reach us.
    But it was able to develop that doctrine.

    It did so by conducting research at specific point in time and then determining that what had occurred then was something that would repeat itself simply because it saw this behaviour in multiple races in the same timeline.

    It had sufficient ability to develop it beyond its standing, simplistic goal then it should be able to adjust and tweak the doctrine as required.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-30 at 11:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And what is to say that it wouldn't hold off the cycle for a little bit if it saw a promising coexistence of the species? We know that the Reapers do not attack blindly and have a vanguard that comes early or stays the entire time. If the Geth and Quarians came to a peaceful coexistence who is to say that the Reapers would have invaded when they did? They could have delayed the cycle by a few hundred or a thousand years to see if peace happened in this case.

    Yes they never let the cycle's play out past a certain point. But to call them a problem assumes that they are basing their data on only the chaos during the time of the levithans. There were, I believe, over a million cycles. That is a lot of time for the Reapers to see and collect data and see the patterns in the data. You can't say that they were the problem of organics vs synthetics without having access to that same data.
    If the goal was to avoid X from happening why in the name of fudge duckery would you wait until AFTER X has happen to prevent it? If X occurs then you have failed to achieve the goal.

    There is enough information in the game from various sources to suggest that they act in a preventative manner rather than a reactive one. The issue is that the first solution they found is the one they have stuck with. There is no evidence that they considered other options.

    The leviathans built the catalyst to work towards a goal. It found a solution and chose them to be the first harvest. Since then it has been harvesting to make more reapers. So for all the 'data' it could have collected it, not once, could think of another solution? I don't think so, unless it never had data beyond the initial intake and thus is working on an assumption that its original data is still true.

  12. #16032
    Scarab Lord Puck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitzin View Post
    But it was able to develop that doctrine.

    It did so by conducting research at specific point in time and then determining that what had occurred then was something that would repeat itself simply because it saw this behaviour in multiple races in the same timeline.

    It had sufficient ability to develop it beyond its standing, simplistic goal then it should be able to adjust and tweak the doctrine as required.
    Only if the tweaks follow the original purpose given to it. "Preserve organic life at any cost" does not include sitting back and letting organics develop AI technology on their own.

  13. #16033
    Quote Originally Posted by Javik View Post
    Only if the tweaks follow the original purpose given to it. "Preserve organic life at any cost" does not include sitting back and letting organics develop AI technology on their own.
    But it did just that in the first place in order to get said doctrine ...
    Last edited by skitzin; 2013-03-30 at 04:38 AM.

  14. #16034
    Dreadlord Nazrark's Avatar
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    So I just read that entire document that someone linked. I found it refreshing to come across another person who thinks instead of becoming the "RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" person.

    I just dislike people who are bitter or cannot stop beating the proverbial dead horse.

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  15. #16035
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    Quote Originally Posted by skitzin View Post
    But it did just that in the first place in order to get said doctrine ...
    I'm a bit confused, are you talking about at the Catalysts creation during the Leviathan cycle or the current one?

  16. #16036
    I love the Mass Effect trilogy. Got ME3 for free because of SimCity launch issues. Then I got the first 2 AFTER I beat the third one. Now I am playing though all three with a Shepard I made from the first one. Mass Effect 1 was OK, the whole hide thing was broken-ish (took a LONG time to get used to). I am currently playing number 2. 24 hours, game time, and I have to say it's the best 3rd person RPG I've ever played. Going to replay Mass Effect 3 once I finally beat Mass Effect 2. Might even try and get 100% everything done in Mass Effect 3 this time.

  17. #16037
    Scarab Lord Puck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dengir View Post
    I love the Mass Effect trilogy. Got ME3 for free because of SimCity launch issues. Then I got the first 2 AFTER I beat the third one. Now I am playing though all three with a Shepard I made from the first one. Mass Effect 1 was OK, the whole hide thing was broken-ish (took a LONG time to get used to). I am currently playing number 2. 24 hours, game time, and I have to say it's the best 3rd person RPG I've ever played. Going to replay Mass Effect 3 once I finally beat Mass Effect 2. Might even try and get 100% everything done in Mass Effect 3 this time.
    I'm really glad you love it! Have you bought any of the dlc?

  18. #16038
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    Pretty funny how a lot of you were annoyed when I started a discussion about the ending and here you all are having one yourself.

    Wether you're Paragon or Renegade, if you have enough EMS, you will get the same choices. The same results. Your entire Paragon/Renegade rep is completely useless in the final moments of the game. It might affect who you have with you, but that's it.

    Destroy is the only viable option. If the Catalyst says that peace won't last between organics and synthetics in de Destroy option, how could it in the Control and Synthesis options? He's contradicting himself, and thus, you have to Destroy them. He is simply manipulating Shepard by making Destroy seem worse than it really is.

    Anyway, my own 'epilogue' makes for a perfect ending and I have chosen to simply accept the IT.
    Statix will suffice.

  19. #16039
    Didn't read the article, or any of the discussion since, just as I skipped any discussion about the ending over the last couple of months. The discussion's over and done with, beaten to death, raised from the dead, and had its undead corpse beaten some more. It's a waste of time.

    Just my opinion of course. You're free to continue to discuss it, and I will continue to skip the posts.

  20. #16040
    Quote Originally Posted by Javik View Post
    I'm really glad you love it! Have you bought any of the dlc?
    Not for the first one,
    The second one I have a whole bunch, some free and it was the Deluxe Edition so that might of came with some.
    Now the third one I have the ending, all the free ones, just saving up some cash for the rest.

    I do plan on getting all the dlc for all the games.

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