1. #17861
    Quote Originally Posted by Corros View Post
    I think a severely limiting factor was that the reapers never could let a circle evolve past the point of their own origin, because they would risk the synthetics being to powerful to be overcome. They always had to rely on theory.
    Limiting to or from what?

  2. #17862
    I picked up on a strong theme of anti-AI sentiment amongst organics throughout all the ME games, the setting is very similar to (and gives a few nods towards) Frank Herbert's "Dune" and Iain M. Banks "The Algebraist", both of which have strong cultural and legal prejudices against sentient machines. As they (and Isaac Asimov) are amongst my favourite authors I always like to explore the relations between biological and technological life, and the handling of A.I. by organics was certainly the "something wrong with the universe" that you find in cosmic horror like ME.

    As the Geth were monitoring organics they would be well aware that popular sentiment amongst people and leaders would prefer to see them eradicated. Whilst there is no way of knowing what the Geth would do post-singularity it would not be unlikely for them to make a pre-emptive strike to ensure their survival, or even wait to be attacked and then wipe the floor with organics. The rogue-AI on the Citadel was well aware of this attitude which is why it chose suicide rather than discourse (and tried to take Shep with it).

  3. #17863
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    Limiting to or from what?
    The reapers operate on a certain theory about how history will play out. But they can't really let history play out further than their own first cycle, because if they do that, they run the risk of not being able to carry out their preservation order. This limits them to always the same facts and arguments making up their theory, without getting new input to probably alter it.

    So assuming history repeats itself along similar lines at similar civilizational and technological tresholds, they will never gain new input resulting from unexpected developments further on. For example, the Romans couldn't envision certain technological and cultural advancements we have today and ths could not have anticipated how international relations today look. humanity could develop into something we today could not foresee because we miss a possible development that is happening somewhere in the future.

    The catalyst and synthesis is in its essence such a development: over many cycles the races have produced a technological advancement going behind the point the reapers hit the reset button , and subsequently the theory has to be altered.

    The problem is the game just does a bad job portraying these things to the player in general. the synthetics vs. organics inevitability could've been so much better done as i said earlier, but even if the storytelling was very good in mass effect, the required depth for such a topic was just missing.


    perhaps another, crude example: It's like if you killed off humanity at the end of world war II, after the nuclear bombings, throwing it back to te stone ages, and subsequently would kill it of again and again when it reaches this point in history, because if you let them evolve past that point, you could lose your superiority and ability to kill them off before they extinct themselves. But then you let them evolve past this point and suddenly you see they do not necessarily eradicate themselves but could even have the potential to spread to other celestial objects, thus minimizing the chance of extinction. (but could possibly still do it in the future)

  4. #17864
    Warchief Statix's Avatar
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    Amazing how calling the Reapers hypocrites can rekindle an inactive thread. Quite pleased with myself for making that post. Gave me a lot of stuff to read.
    Statix will suffice.

  5. #17865
    Didn't realize we were playing the "How big of a storm can I start with a single comment" game. I play that with my guild when I say Obama is a perfect president and hasn't made a single mistake, or if the dps just did double their damage the boss would be dead already, or Half Life 3 confirmed (I saw 3 people die together).
    Last edited by Very Tired; 2013-07-30 at 07:26 PM.

  6. #17866
    Elemental Lord Dezerte's Avatar
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    It's the same old beaten horse getting revived every now and then.

    Poor horse.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  7. #17867
    Herald of the Titans Yakobro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The AI on the moon, which later became EDI, had no reaper influence and had no problem killing all humans. Project overlord was only a VI but took over the facility of its "own will" and proceeded to kill everyone until it was stopped.

    VI or AI it doesn't matter because they can still lead to organic versus synthetic conflict. And not all of the rogue mechs in me2 were reprogrammed by organic life.
    EDI wasn't an AI on the moon, this is EXPLICITLY stated by Hackett when he asks you to go.

    And the difference between VI and AI is massive, AI's have free will/self reasoning and VI's simply follow set programming.
    All of the mechs you fight in the game are either set on you by someone organic, infected with some sort of virus that makes them just go nuts (there's an entire mini-quest for this) or controlled by David.

  8. #17868
    Quote Originally Posted by Statix View Post
    Amazing how calling the Reapers hypocrites can rekindle an inactive thread. Quite pleased with myself for making that post. Gave me a lot of stuff to read.
    I have taught you well, young padawan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shop Ebay View Post
    Didn't realize we were playing the "How big of a storm can I start with a single comment" game. I play that with my guild when I say Obama is a perfect president and hasn't made a single mistake, or if the dps just did double their damage the boss would be dead already
    Guild trolling truly is the best part of WoW.
    Lost my seat in hundreds of guilds across servers, but so worth it.

    Wmil of Bollklubben, where you at dog?
    Still mad?

  9. #17869
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakobro View Post
    EDI wasn't an AI on the moon, this is EXPLICITLY stated by Hackett when he asks you to go.

    And the difference between VI and AI is massive, AI's have free will/self reasoning and VI's simply follow set programming.
    All of the mechs you fight in the game are either set on you by someone organic, infected with some sort of virus that makes them just go nuts (there's an entire mini-quest for this) or controlled by David.
    EDI is actually the Rogue VI on the moon. It is explained by her in the game as well.

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  10. #17870



    Incase you missed it.
    Someone got FAT.

  11. #17871
    Warchief Statix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shop Ebay View Post
    Didn't realize we were playing the "How big of a storm can I start with a single comment" game. I play that with my guild when I say Obama is a perfect president and hasn't made a single mistake, or if the dps just did double their damage the boss would be dead already, or Half Life 3 confirmed (I saw 3 people die together).
    We aren't. I was just surprised and I had to share it.

    Played some Mass Effect 3 yesterday. Started with a Gold match and I got my ass kicked. Forgot how difficult that can be if you are just looking for an easy, time-killing game. Started with N7 Paladin vs Geth. Do I love making those Cryo Explosions with Snap Freeze + Energy Drain. After that I played Geth Trooper on Bronze. Went 6/6/6/6/0, maximum damage output. Everything was dropping like flies, amazing.

    I should play it more often, because it's still a lot of fun. Never played it again after I got the Alliance Infiltration Unit and it was announced there wouldn't be any more Weekend Challenges.

    I wanna experience the entire story of the Mass Effect trilogy again, but I really don't wanna play through all games again. Found this amazing "tv show" of Mass Effect on Youtube, but it's with BroShep... Honestly, I could watch it with BroShep, but I would feel homesick, basically, to FemShep. All memories I have of FemShep won't be relived because I'll be watching BroShep. If that "tv show" featured FemShep, I would have watched it by now.

    Anyone ever think about recording themselves while doing a playthrough of the game as FemShep and then cut it into a decent looking tv show? So, gathering items, running around the Citadel for ages etc. would be cut out, but fighting scenes and important dialogs etc. would be kept. All the editting would take weeks, if not months.

    The Youtube vid I was talking about (just one of the dozens of parts): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6swl0H_RUA.
    Statix will suffice.

  12. #17872
    Herald of the Titans Yakobro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    EDI is actually the Rogue VI on the moon. It is explained by her in the game as well.
    Yes, VI, not AI.

    Not responding to shutdowns doesn't suddenly make them an AI.

    It was a training facility to begin with, it just didn't respond when they told it to stop.

  13. #17873
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    So I was bored and I wanted to see what the Internet said was the most powerful alien race:

    http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/off-...iction-552037/

    Fifth post down is truth.

    If a video game developer removed tumors from players, they'd whine about nerfing their loss in weight and access to radiation powers. -Cracked.com

  14. #17874
    Herald of the Titans The Illusive Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post



    Incase you missed it.
    Someone got FAT.
    That guy Chris Priestly is one of the main reasons why I absolutely hate the BSN. He is just an absolutely unlikable guy and apparently he is also a very fat unlikable guy (at least how he presents himself on the BSN with his posts)

    That´s why he loves to play the big bad guy on BSN because I bet he has some major complexes because of his weight.
    Last edited by The Illusive Man; 2013-07-31 at 08:05 AM.

  15. #17875
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakobro View Post
    Yes, VI, not AI.

    Not responding to shutdowns doesn't suddenly make them an AI.

    It was a training facility to begin with, it just didn't respond when they told it to stop.
    It was a VI who became sentient (thus an AI) without them knowing that Cerberus stole and infused with reaper upgrades to create EDI.
    When discussing AIs with EDI on the Normandy SR-2, it is more or less confirmed that the incident on Luna was in fact the result of an experiment in creating 'controllable' AI.
    In Mass Effect 3, it is revealed that this VI was later modified with tech salvaged from Sovereign. The resulting AI was EDI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Jensen View Post
    So I was bored and I wanted to see what the Internet said was the most powerful alien race:

    http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/off-...iction-552037/

    Fifth post down is truth.
    CTRL F "Saiyan"
    0 results

    Theres nothing more overpowered than the goddamn spaceapes.
    Even Hokuto Shinkens Musou Tensei (which basically equates to the EVERYTHING-PROOF SHIELD that kids call upon) seems reasonable in comparison.
    Last edited by Gravath; 2013-07-31 at 10:16 AM.

  16. #17876
    Herald of the Titans Yakobro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    It was a VI who became sentient (thus an AI) without them knowing that Cerberus stole and infused with reaper upgrades to create EDI.
    When discussing AIs with EDI on the Normandy SR-2, it is more or less confirmed that the incident on Luna was in fact the result of an experiment in creating 'controllable' AI.
    In Mass Effect 3, it is revealed that this VI was later modified with tech salvaged from Sovereign. The resulting AI was EDI.
    They can try to retcon it if they want, but the fact is there was no blue box, you shut down -3- VI nodes to disable "her" and as even you quoted from the wiki "this VI was later modified".

    It may have been some sort of inbetween state (maybe something like a geth, but without enough processing for real sentience) but it was nowhere near a real AI.

  17. #17877
    Even if it is retconned, thats still how it is.

  18. #17878
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakobro View Post
    EDI wasn't an AI on the moon, this is EXPLICITLY stated by Hackett when he asks you to go.
    I said the AI on the moon, which later became EDI, had no reaper influence. The AI from the moon in ME1 is what Cerberus used to build EDI and is what EDI.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakobro View Post
    Yes, VI, not AI.

    Not responding to shutdowns doesn't suddenly make them an AI.

    It was a training facility to begin with, it just didn't respond when they told it to stop.
    A VI that obtains sentience, is an AI. The VI on the moon was in the process of achieving sentience. The journal entry after you complete the mission even states that the VI might have been deliberately sabotaged to make it become sentient. EDI in mass effect 2 even hints at the Luna base as a experiment in "controllable" AI.

    Why else would the VI refuse to respond and not want to be destroyed? After all you stated earlier VI can only follow their programing. So which is it a VI can only follow their programing, or a VI can do things outside of its programing?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yakobro View Post
    They can try to retcon it if they want, but the fact is there was no blue box, you shut down -3- VI nodes to disable "her" and as even you quoted from the wiki "this VI was later modified".
    So you are saying the VI was programmed with the ability to refuse shut down? Nothing was retroactively corrected. We know that destroying the nodes didn't destroy the AI because it signaled for help in binary after you destroyed the nodes. And it was still in enough shape for Cerberus to modify.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  19. #17879
    Herald of the Titans Yakobro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    I said the AI on the moon, which later became EDI, had no reaper influence. The AI from the moon in ME1 is what Cerberus used to build EDI and is what EDI.
    - - - Updated - - -
    A VI that obtains sentience, is an AI. The VI on the moon was in the process of achieving sentience. The journal entry after you complete the mission even states that the VI might have been deliberately sabotaged to make it become sentient. EDI in mass effect 2 even hints at the Luna base as a experiment in "controllable" AI.

    Why else would the VI refuse to respond and not want to be destroyed? After all you stated earlier VI can only follow their programing. So which is it a VI can only follow their programing, or a VI can do things outside of its programing?
    - - - Updated - - -
    So you are saying the VI was programmed with the ability to refuse shut down? Nothing was retroactively corrected. We know that destroying the nodes didn't destroy the AI because it signalled for help in binary after you destroyed the nodes. And it was still in enough shape for Cerberus to modify.
    A VI can't just magically become an AI, without massive amounts of linked processing like the geth or a blue box like every other AI you can't just flip a switch to change them.

    As you said it was sabotaged, I've no doubt it wasn't a normal VI, and either through the sabotage or their attempts at somehow trying making it an AI it stopped responding normally.

    The actual main terminal you get the message and upgrade wasn't damaged (seriously), it merely blinked out of power after trailing off repeating that message, I never said she was destroyed merely disabled. Only when modified with tech from Sovereign did it become an actual AI.

  20. #17880
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yakobro View Post
    The actual main terminal you get the message and upgrade wasn't damaged (seriously), it merely blinked out of power after trailing off repeating that message, I never said she was destroyed merely disabled. Only when modified with tech from Sovereign did it become an actual AI.
    So how did the VI refuse to shut down? Are you saying that the programmers of the VI programmed it to go rogue? To avoid shut down? Or was the VI rewriting its programing to allow it to go rogue and become sentient? Was the VI programmed to ask for help in binary? So what is an abnormal VI that can rewrite its own programing and has limited self awareness?

    A VI can't just magically make its own decisions, commands, and pleas for help.

    It was an AI on the luna base. It is the AI known as Hannibal that Cerberus merged with reaper tech. That AI then developed its personality into EDI.

    Also where does it say that the Luna base didn't have a lot of linked processing? Or had a blue box? Or when it became self aware created its own blue box? VI can became an AI which means they can exist without a blue box or create their own. Otherwise no VI would have been able to become self aware on their own. The first geth never would have become self aware, the mechs on the Citadel (prior to the geth revolt) would never have been self aware. Some are created specifically as AI yes which means they have a blue box already.

    The Luna VI became self aware and as a result became a AI. That was the whole reason why Cerberus used it for Hannibal and EDI and why it was so deadly. Because it wasn't just a malfunctioning VI but it could adapt, learn, and communicate of its own will. This wasn't even the first Alliance VI to achieve sentience, that honor belongs to Eliza (from the mass effect CE book)

    Why would a VI be programmed to release binary code across all frequencies with that translates to Help Me? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uACSmqRaod0
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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