1. #18421
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Shepard wasn't mind controlled, so it doesn't contradict the Illusive Man being unable to successfully control them. Saren being turned into a cyborg by Sovereign also doesn't contradict the Crucible effect. It only means that Saren could have possible done the same if he was present at the crucible. It is also possible that there are differences between cyborg Shepard and cyborg Saren. It was never fully explained exactly what was done to Shepard to bring him back to life.

    The ending being stupid or not is a matter of opinion. But the ending doesn't contradict anything in the game.

    One video worth more than a wall of text D:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs

  2. #18422
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterik View Post
    One video worth more than a wall of text D:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MlatxLP-xs
    A 39 minute video is more of a wall then 5 sentences.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  3. #18423
    The Lightbringer May90's Avatar
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    What doesn't make sense is the fact that Catalyst had to wait thousands of cycles for organics to build Crucible. I don't get it. Couldn't it build Crucible itself using Reapers that are far more advanced than any known races? If it is an AI programmed to preserve life at any cost, then it certainly had a LOT of bugs in its software. Organics did in a few months what Reapers haven't been able to do in probably over billion years, while being technologically and intellectually 1000 times superior to organics. Somehow it's hard to believe that such a terrible manager can control thousands, if not millions, of the most powerful entities in the galaxy.

    I don't share popular feelings about ME3 ending and don't consider it to be terrible. In fact, I quite liked the moral choice which is way better than a usual happy end. However, it is evident that they haven't worked hard enough on it and left multiple plot holes that become evident by closer examination. In particular, Catalyst's logic is just plain wrong in many points. Why start cycles if a construction so simple that it can be completed by organics in a few months could solve the problem forever? Why don't just bomb Crucible while Shepard was on board and continue cycles? And, if Catalyst wanted Shepard to get there, then why send Harbinger to burn him out near the "portal" to Crucible? Why create this "portal" in the first place? Finally, how come Reapers haven't spotted Crucible while it was constructed if, evidently, nearly every organic has at least heard of it and there surely vast amount of resources had to be transported to Crucible which would be really easy to follow and discover its location?

    Really, Bioware should have worked harder on it. Sci-fi game better have at least logical (forget scientific) explanation to happening events.

  4. #18424
    Herald of the Titans Kaelwryn's Avatar
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    Why would the Catalyst want to build the Crucible? The crucible for one was a project started by organics to put an end to the reapers. The catalyst was apart of the reaper solution. Makes no sense for it to want the Crucible completed.

    It was pretty easy for us to build the Crucible because we had the blue prints to it. Most things are easier to build when you have instructions right there in front of you. Catalyst didn't end Shepard and continue the cycles because it realized that organics had finally created the Crucible thus even if it did stop it this time, they could easily build it again (And probably more swiftly) so obviously its current plan (The Reaper culling) was no longer a viable solution and it need to change (Just like tells you).

  5. #18425
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    What doesn't make sense is the fact that Catalyst had to wait thousands of cycles for organics to build Crucible. I don't get it. Couldn't it build Crucible itself using Reapers that are far more advanced than any known races? If it is an AI programmed to preserve life at any cost, then it certainly had a LOT of bugs in its software.
    The Catalyst wasn't an AI programmed to preserve life at any cost. It was programmed to solve the inevitable conflict that arose between Organics and Synthetics. The Leviathans were tired of dealing with a new problem every time they solved the old one and created an AI to do the work for them. They wanted to concentrate on other important matters rather then with squabbling amongst their thralls.

    The Reapers knew about the Crucible though I don't think they knew the exact effect it would have. We know they knew about it because the Catalyst states that they thought the blue prints were destroyed cycles ago. The Catalyst, and reapers, had no use for the Crucible as well. They didn't need it to control themselves and they didn't need it to destroy themselves.

    We know that the Reapers have tried synthesis before but it didn't work. We don't know anymore then that about who, what, where, and why. We do know that synthesis was viable because of something special about Shepard. So they wouldn't need the Crucible do bring about any of the endings. I don't think the Catalyst knew what would happen with synthesis until Shepard was standing there in front of him. Or it even just guessed and hoped it would work.

    We also know that Red and Blue doesn't solve the problem. Red just delays it and Blue still allows the problem but "Shepard" controls the reapers so they would approach the topic in a different way. And maybe Shepard being a "free will" could do things the Catalyst couldn't. Or even just settle each issue on a case by case basis rather then galactic genocide. Heck in 1000 years Shepard could start the cycle over again lol.

    Finally, how come Reapers haven't spotted Crucible while it was constructed if, evidently, nearly every organic has at least heard of it and there surely vast amount of resources had to be transported to Crucible which would be really easy to follow and discover its location?
    This is really the only plot hole but it could just be that the Reapers were focused on the galactic centers and were not paying that much attention to some anomaly in shipping materials and stuff.

    The Reapers tried to destroy the Crucible and that is why Shepard had to assemble the fleet that he did for the final assault. Because they sacrificed themselves in order to get the Crucible to the Citadel.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  6. #18426
    Its that time again, eh?

  7. #18427
    Dreadlord Nazrark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    Its that time again, eh?
    Ashley is clearly the best companion you get.

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  8. #18428
    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    Ashley is clearly the best companion you get.
    If you disregard Liara, Tali and Jack - sure.

  9. #18429
    Bloodsail Admiral Mordin Solus's Avatar
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    and miranda.... and mordin.... and garrus.... and legion... and uncle urdnot....
    someone else might have gotten it wrong.

  10. #18430
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    As Shepard spoke to Catalyst however, it became evident that it's no solution: you destroy the Reapers, and then 200 years later even more terrible Reapers appear and just annihilate all organic life whatsoever.

    Killing both the Reapers and half the organics just to delay the death of everything by a few centuries doesn't seem like a very heroic decision to me, when there are two other choices that actually solve the problem and, at the same time, advance technology and quality of life to unimaginable level (especially the Green one).
    I must have missed the part where the Reapers survive the Red choice. Also, given that you have enough EMS, hardly any organics die. The only major downside to the Red Destroy option is the destruction of all Synthetics, not just the Reapers. Still, I've said so numerous times before, I believe that it was all a final indoctrination attempt by Harbinger where the Red Destroy option is the only option that sets Shepard free. Hence the breathing scene.

    Not counting how I see the ending of ME3, I still believe that destroying the Reapers is the best choice. The whole trilogy is about destroying the Reapers. It makes it obvious that controlling them will not work; The Illusive Man is proof of that. More importantly, TIM is shown in the cutscene for the Control option, and I firmly believe, despite blue standing for Paragon, that Blue Control just isn't a Paragon decision. In fact, none are.

    I hate the introduction of the final choice. Honestly, simply the activation of the Catalyst followed by the destruction of the Reapers would have worked for me. All our choices lead to this, but in the end, none of our choices really affect our final choice. All they do is affect how succesful we are at our final choice. It defeats the whole purpose of giving us control over the decisions that we make. Maybe within that lies the reason why the Blue Control option is not the best choice; no matter how much control you have, in the end, it won't matter. Thus, controlling the Reapers and stopping them will, in the end, not have mattered at all, because they will probably return in 50000 years and do it all over again. Shepard is now a Reaper after all, not truly herself anymore.

    Garrus is the best companion.
    Last edited by Statix; 2013-12-07 at 11:50 AM.
    Statix will suffice.

  11. #18431
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordin Solus View Post
    and miranda.... and mordin.... and garrus.... and legion... and uncle urdnot....
    Eh i can do without them.
    They dont have Ashleys spirit.

  12. #18432
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
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    Here we go again. I love this thread.

  13. #18433
    Warchief Statix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    Here we go again. I love this thread.
    Me too.

    Say what you want about the ending, but no ending has ever stirred up this much emotion.
    Statix will suffice.

  14. #18434
    The Lightbringer May90's Avatar
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    Well, there are really only two possible cases. Either Crucible is a better solution than the cycles, or not. If it is, Catalyst could have built it by itself. If it is not, Catalyst shouldn't have let Shepard use it. Either way, the ending makes no sense.
    There is another possible case, that Crucible is actually a threat to Catalyst, but it just finally saw that it couldn't prevent its creation eventually. Still, if Catalyst managed to prevent its construction for hundreds millions years, there is no reason to believe it won't prevent it for hundreds millions years more.

    Catalyst explained all this by a "new variable" coming from event that seemed impossible to it. How come such an advanced intelligence couldn't predict creation of the Crucible? Organics managed to build it from scratch in a few months while being exterminated all over the galaxy, and the most advanced intelligence in the world couldn't predict it in a billion years?

    So I don't go away from my claim: Catalyst's software had a few bugs in it. Its logic doesn't make sense, but perhaps the programmers simply wrote "mov ax, bx" instead of "mov ax, cx" somewhere?
    Last edited by May90; 2013-12-07 at 12:18 PM.

  15. #18435
    Quote Originally Posted by Statix View Post
    Me too.

    Say what you want about the ending, but no ending has ever stirred up this much emotion.
    The bible?

    And regarding the catalyst, yeah.
    Its unlikely that the leviathans themselves wrote the AI, but rather had one of the lesser races do it for them.

  16. #18436
    Warchief Statix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    ...and the most advanced intelligence in the world couldn't predict it in a billion years?
    Universe!

    Also, I was refering to game endings, Gravath.
    Statix will suffice.

  17. #18437
    Bloodsail Admiral Mordin Solus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    Eh i can do without them.
    They dont have Ashleys spirit.
    doesnt hold a candle to miranda's :P
    someone else might have gotten it wrong.

  18. #18438
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Well, there are really only two possible cases. Either Crucible is a better solution than the cycles, or not. If it is, Catalyst could have built it by itself. If it is not, Catalyst shouldn't have let Shepard use it. Either way, the ending makes no sense.
    There is another possible case, that Crucible is actually a threat to Catalyst, but it just finally saw that it couldn't prevent its creation eventually. Still, if Catalyst managed to prevent its construction for hundreds millions years, there is no reason to believe it won't prevent it for hundreds millions years more.

    Catalyst explained all this by a "new variable" coming from event that seemed impossible to it. How come such an advanced intelligence couldn't predict creation of the Crucible? Organics managed to build it from scratch in a few months while being exterminated all over the galaxy, and the most advanced intelligence in the world couldn't predict it in a billion years?

    So I don't go away from my claim: Catalyst's software had a few bugs in it. Its logic doesn't make sense, but perhaps the programmers simply wrote "mov ax, bx" instead of "mov ax, cx" somewhere?
    The thing about computers is they're not the most... creative thinkers. They take assigned values and process along directed lines to a conclusion. Its likely that the catalyst saw the crucible only as a weapon previously until this time when it was made and it took it. At that point, it didn't know what to do with it. The crucible points to the fact that at some point, biological organisms will defeat the reapers and the program will no longer be able to remove technology from the universe in cycles. Ultimately it's perfect solution is a failure.

    Now, think about something. The only purpose of the catalyst is to preserve organic life. It probably went through billions of alternatives, and ultimately it decided the cycles was the best solution to ensure continuance of life. Then its proven that not even that works. What does it do when it's best answer is wrong? Probably not much.

    So shepard comes up and wants to use the crucible. The catalyst understands the things the crucible can do, and tells shepard options. Ultimately, it probably doesn't think controlling the reapers or destroying the reapers will have a better chance at preserving organic life, so it doesn't actually care which way it goes. It only gives the synthesis idea if Shepard was heroic enough, but I'm sure it has no idea what to do with this option. It wants to protect organic life with the implicit information that the rise of machine life ultimately will destroy organic life, and now they're the same thing. (Which makes no sense but whatever)

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Finally, how come Reapers haven't spotted Crucible while it was constructed if, evidently, nearly every organic has at least heard of it and there surely vast amount of resources had to be transported to Crucible which would be really easy to follow and discover its location?
    My guess is lots of crazy and monsterous weapons of war have came and went through the cycles, the crucble could be one of many. Just the only one to have been passed all the way down to the present. Who knows how many others were lost to the darkness of history.
    Still bitter.

  19. #18439
    Quote Originally Posted by Mordin Solus View Post
    doesnt hold a candle to miranda's :P
    Thats not her "spirit" you are looking at.

  20. #18440
    Dreadlord Nazrark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    Thats not her "spirit" you are looking at.
    Those pants are very well formed...

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