1. #18861
    Reapers are also extremely arrogant. The notion someone could tamper with their technology is something they don't consider because they are clearly the superior race. The notion that their plan might fail is also something they don't consider, after all they've done it thousands of times already with the same outcome each time.

    A better question about Ilos is how are the ruins in such good condition? After all, these aren't Prothean - they are from a race before the Protheans, the Inusannon. And those ruins are in better condition then Prothean ruins half their age! Obviously very well built!

  2. #18862
    Herald of the Titans May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    Theoretically, you can outwit the Reapers by sending out an expedition with explicit orders not to contact anybody and avoid mass relays at all costs. The Citadel should have a warning flag for the Reapers if a mass relay has been activated. From there they must send out a scouting party to see if it poses an immediate threat. The Quarians and Asari would be the most likely survivors of the last Reaper war. Longevity from the Asari and ingenuity/survival instincts from the Quarians. They would just have to realize not to use the existing Mass Relays.
    This is true. I think, if more Protheans survived on Ilos, enough to rebuild the Empire, and if they were careful to avoid Mass Relays, they would be able to mass an enormous fleet in 50,000 years somewhere in a hidden place. Since they had discovered the Mass Relay technology, it would probably not be long before they, using their collected data from the war, discovered everything about the Reapers, their weaknesses - they would be able to build ships specifically to "counter" Reapers.

    It would probably be worse for us than the Reapers arrival though. Reapers, at least, harvest us and are done with it after. Protheans, however, used other races as slaves, so, should they have defeated Reapers with their hidden fleet in our cycle, our fate would not be very pleasant. Not to mention that, according to Catalyst, they would eventually create a race of machines that would wipe them and us out. So, maybe, Reapers are a less evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    Reapers are also extremely arrogant. The notion someone could tamper with their technology is something they don't consider because they are clearly the superior race. The notion that their plan might fail is also something they don't consider, after all they've done it thousands of times already with the same outcome each time.
    I think this is the best possible explanation. Still, it is strange that such an advanced race that consistently has been wiping out all the advanced life in the galaxy without leaving any evidence of their existence didn't take such basic precautions as getting periodical automatic reports from the Citadel's systems, checking all the planets beyond Mass Relays "just to make sure" soon after the cycle has ended and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durandro View Post
    A better question about Ilos is how are the ruins in such good condition? After all, these aren't Prothean - they are from a race before the Protheans, the Inusannon. And those ruins are in better condition then Prothean ruins half their age! Obviously very well built!
    I believe these are Prothean ruins. They were build on the remains of Inusannon cities, true, but, still, what we see in the game is, most likely, Prothean constructions. Inusannon statues were there just as a sign of gratitude from Protheans to the people who "provided" them with technology. They worshipped them, just like Hanars worship the Protheans, I think.

    Which, again, makes it illogical that Reapers ignored this planet in their "reaping". Since they wiped out Inusannon there just a cycle ago, it would be logical to check it to see if no one used these ruins as a base. And to bomb them once again to make sure of it.

  3. #18863
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    1. It was explained how Ilos was missed by the reapers. It was a secret research facility NOT mentioned in Citadel archives. Reapers use Citadel for information of where every species is.
    2. Reapers don't have a goal to personally kill every member of the species. They just need to kill enough - the rest will die out. They are neither arrogant nor sloppy in this - they are efficient as machines that they are.
    3. Protheans lost.
    4. Protheans managed to crack the keepers and change them - that was their last act as species.
    5. Sovereign cannot check up on Citadel - first of all it needs to conserve energy, secondly it needs to remain unseen. To test if keepers are in line Sovereign would've needed to activate them early - which is a no no. Not to mention that Reapers got a contingency plan for everything. In this case Saren and Geth who basically uncovered what Protheans did and then fixed it, well they would've if there were no Shepard who grabbed Saren's tail. You've just finished ME1 - it should be clear for you that Shepard was always one step behind Saren and all they knew about Reapers and Protheans was taken from Saren's Discoveries. Who made a mistake of not destroying that first beacon. Here Sovereign got sloppy via Saren. Maybe it was arrogant.
    6. You cannot check every planet in the galaxy. It is not efficient, it would've taken more than 50k years. Thye lured species into Citadel and then used the information stored in it to find everyone. A single secret facility on some unknown planet is of no significance. All those protheans died before Reapers left the galaxy, most were disconnected by VI, the rest were dead by definition of dying species.
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  4. #18864
    Herald of the Titans May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    4. Protheans managed to crack the keepers and change them - that was their last act as species.
    This is what raises many questions. How come the security of Reapers' system was so poor that a bunch of guys managed to crack it without Reapers noticing it during 50,000 years? Reapers are very thorough, and yet didn't foresee such a simple event as someone hacking their systems? At least, they could make a basic notification system: whenever someone tampers with Keepers during the period of their idle state, Keepers send a signal to Sovereign, which then arrives to the Citadel and fixes everything right away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    5. Sovereign cannot check up on Citadel - first of all it needs to conserve energy, secondly it needs to remain unseen. To test if keepers are in line Sovereign would've needed to activate them early - which is a no no.
    They don't need to activate anything. Vigil said that Sovereign awakens periodically (every 500 years?) to evaluate the state of the galactic civilization. During these periods of "awakening" it didn't even bother to send some basic signal to Keepers and get the report from them on the state of their systems? It just doesn't make sense, especially for hyper-advanced race of machines: machines are much less prone to overlooks than organics, and even a human kid would realize that some kind of check system is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Not to mention that Reapers got a contingency plan for everything. In this case Saren and Geth who basically uncovered what Protheans did and then fixed it, well they would've if there were no Shepard who grabbed Saren's tail. You've just finished ME1 - it should be clear for you that Shepard was always one step behind Saren and all they knew about Reapers and Protheans was taken from Saren's Discoveries. Who made a mistake of not destroying that first beacon. Here Sovereign got sloppy via Saren. Maybe it was arrogant.
    Reapers are machines. They aim at the highest efficiency - this is how they came up with the idea of cycles in the first place. Putting all their hopes in unpredictable organics, instead of installing a proper system on Citadel that would notify them if something in the system prevents them from returning, doesn't sound like them. Besides, they failed in the end, didn't they? To not expect such an outcome would be silly even of organics, let alone machines with millions of years of technological advancement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    6. You cannot check every planet in the galaxy. It is not efficient, it would've taken more than 50k years.
    True, but they could, at least, check all the planets where the Inusannon were spotted: these planets are the most likely sites for Protheans to hide their facilities.

    ---

    All in all, it seems that in the last cycle Reapers were much less thorough than before. They missed an important science facility, they didn't realize the Protheans discovered the Mass Relay technology, they didn't notice the Protheans tampering with their Citadel systems, they used a single Spectre to try to start the cycle, they were careless enough to slip up evidence of their existence (while Protheans, being more advanced than humans, had no idea about the Reapers before the invasion started) by transmitting and uncoded message to all the Geth that Tali retrieved... Seriously, it is as if they suddenly decided to give the organics a chance. If they were just a little bit more careful and, say, left in the galaxy not a single Reaper, but, say, 10 of them - they would be able to win just by direct assault on the Citadel.

  5. #18865
    Mechagnome Nazrark's Avatar
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    There is evidence of them around. They aren't the type to retrieve their own dead. I realize they don't because their dead husks still indoctrinate people. Which allows them to stay anonymous.

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  6. #18866
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    This is what raises many questions. How come the security of Reapers' system was so poor that a bunch of guys managed to crack it without Reapers noticing it during 50,000 years? Reapers are very thorough, and yet didn't foresee such a simple event as someone hacking their systems? At least, they could make a basic notification system: whenever someone tampers with Keepers during the period of their idle state, Keepers send a signal to Sovereign, which then arrives to the Citadel and fixes everything right away.
    What are you talking about? How do you even know that Sovereign didn't know about it? It did know about it - hence the Geth and Saren. It couldn't just flew to the Citadel and say "Hi, Keeper Inspection.", and there was no point checking up on them before new species got to the Citadel. And since they are doing it for so long they know exactly when to expect that to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    They don't need to activate anything. Vigil said that Sovereign awakens periodically (every 500 years?) to evaluate the state of the galactic civilization. During these periods of "awakening" it didn't even bother to send some basic signal to Keepers and get the report from them on the state of their systems? It just doesn't make sense, especially for hyper-advanced race of machines: machines are much less prone to overlooks than organics, and even a human kid would realize that some kind of check system is needed.
    How do you know there's no such system? And machines are no perfect. In fact they are even less perfect than organics, because they were created by organics to begin with. They are limited by their programming even the AI ones. Not to mention that reapers are not fully machine, they are made of people - their mind is made of people's minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Reapers are machines. They aim at the highest efficiency - this is how they came up with the idea of cycles in the first place. Putting all their hopes in unpredictable organics, instead of installing a proper system on Citadel that would notify them if something in the system prevents them from returning, doesn't sound like them. Besides, they failed in the end, didn't they? To not expect such an outcome would be silly even of organics, let alone machines with millions of years of technological advancement.
    They weren't perfect. And they were stale in their evolution because, duh, machines. They made mistakes, small mistakes ,that were unimportant because they were small. But these mistakes accumulated over the eons and organic evolution took advantage of that. That's how Protheans managed to crack Mass Effect technology and build their own mini-relay, this is how they understood what a Citadel is and how to counter act. And they did counter act, they just failed to save themselves.
    Same for the Crucible, its design evolved over cycles. Organic Evolution played a joke on Silly Machines, who couldn't foresee it.

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    True, but they could, at least, check all the planets where the Inusannon were spotted: these planets are the most likely sites for Protheans to hide their facilities.
    For whatever reason? That secret facility could've been on some other planet, that never got cleansed before. there's no logic connecting Ilos to Prothean Facility from reapers perspective, and they are machines. They don't have hunches. They do whatever Starbrat tells them to do.

    Here's actually the answer to your previous questions - Starbrat - is a security system of Citadel. It knew EVERYTHING about Prothean manipulation of the keepers.
    One can even suggest that it wasn't the first time in history of cleansing that organics managed to do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    All in all, it seems that in the last cycle Reapers were much less thorough than before. They missed an important science facility, they didn't realize the Protheans discovered the Mass Relay technology, they didn't notice the Protheans tampering with their Citadel systems, they used a single Spectre to try to start the cycle, they were careless enough to slip up evidence of their existence (while Protheans, being more advanced than humans, had no idea about the Reapers before the invasion started) by transmitting and uncoded message to all the Geth that Tali retrieved... Seriously, it is as if they suddenly decided to give the organics a chance. If they were just a little bit more careful and, say, left in the galaxy not a single Reaper, but, say, 10 of them - they would be able to win just by direct assault on the Citadel.
    1. In every cycle - there were secret facilities that Reapers "missed"
    2. It is irrelevant to Reapers what have species discovered technology wise - because all technology comes from Reapers.
    3. They did notice Prothean tampering.
    4. They didn't used a single Spectre. They used Geth, ex-Protheans (Collectors), and indoctrination technology to manipulate anyone they want.
    5. They didn't need to remove all evidence , because evidence that remains depends on interpretation, everyone thought it was from the race that came before - nothing to point to Reapers.
    6. Reapers don't need cloak and dagger approach when they are about to start the cycle.
    7. Organics have no chance apart from Crucible which was overlooked by Starbrat and it admitted it.
    8. They don't need to leave more than 1 Reaper to check on things, because the rest of Reapers could easily just fly in via Alpha Relay. Which got destroyed by Shepard in Arrival DLC, but that only postponed Reapers invasion for couple of month. And when they finally arrived NO ONE WAS PREPARED. Reapers wisely relied on one of the major organic flaw - inability of pure logical thinking, that makes it hard for Organics to unite as one force before it's too late and even an imbecile will be yelling "let's unite".
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  7. #18867
    Herald of the Titans May90's Avatar
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    No, I am stressing on another point. Sovereign awakens every few hundred years or so to analyze the situation. How come it hasn't realized that Keepers have been reprogrammed before it sent the signal for invasion (according to Vigil) to no avail? If it did realize it, it would just send a group of Collectors to the Citadel and they would manually fix everything before any organics discovered the Citadel again. The fact that it had to resort to Saren and the Geth shows that they learned it when it was too late. This is what is strange: the system most vital for cycle initiation (which is all the Reapers care about, basically) was hacked and Reapers weren't even aware of it until it was too late.

    Why didn't they check the Citadel's status periodically? Why didn't they leave a group of indoctrinated thralls there for the time being just in case someone survives the harvest and arrives there? Why did they leave only one Reaper in the galaxy which certainly is some risk and machines do not think in terms of risk? Why, after all, was Citadel security system so low that organics who barely discovered Mass Relay technology (known for Reapers for millions of years) managed to hack it so easily? Why didn't they put Citadel control terminal deep into Citadel where no organics go so, instead of using Saren and such, they could just place a few thralls there and make them override the system without organics being even aware of it? All in all, they acted as organics: as if they felt their omnipotence and control over the galaxy and started underestimating organics.

  8. #18868
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    No, I am stressing on another point.
    You seem to be missing the major piece of the puzzle here.
    Sovereign is in contact with the Reapers whenever he is awake - with the Harbinger. It doesn't need keepers to communicate the problem to them.
    When sovereign fell - Harbinger used Collectors to evaluate the situation. It communicated from the Dark Void with them.

    The only purpose of Keepers is to keep the Citadel in prime condition so it will attract new species and when the signal from Sovereign comes - activate the Citadel Relay.

    Reapers don't need Citadel to come. It's just a due process - the most effective one. Sovereign failed to activate Citadel - Reapers still came.

    They come every 50k years either thru Citadel which was successfully activated or thru Alpha Relay or as in the last cycle - just fly to the galaxy.

    They knew everything that happened to keepers and they didn't need to do a thing about it. The plan was - for Soveregin to activate Citadel when the time comes by any means necessary and if that fails - Reapers would be able to go thru Alpha Relay and as the last resort they can just fly.

    They are unstoppable, and they knew that. The last cycle practically lost if not for Crucible - the only mistake Reapers made.
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  9. #18869
    Herald of the Titans May90's Avatar
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    As machines, Reapers aim at the highest effectiveness possible. Installing a simple transmission system on Citadel which notifies Reapers when something gets changed seems to be much simpler and cost effective than paying later for lack of this system by a lot of Reapers' "lives". They had so many ways to ensure that Citadel functions properly no matter what and reduce their losses by a large margin. Instead, they chose a long and resource demanding way which failed in the end. Doesn't look like machines' work.

    As for the "flying through galaxy", I don't think this is how they did this. If all it took them to just fly over was 2 years or something, then why bother with Saren and the Geth at all? It is not like in 2 years much would change in terms of technology for organics. They would be much better off just arriving there to full surprise of organics, quickly taking Citadel by sheer numbers and winning right away. As I understand, they just had a complex system of Relays reaching the dark space, so they just needed to fly to the closest Relay (which might be very close to their "home").

  10. #18870
    Because Starbrat wills it.

  11. #18871
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    As machines, Reapers aim at the highest effectiveness possible. Installing a simple transmission system on Citadel which notifies Reapers when something gets changed seems to be much simpler and cost effective than paying later for lack of this system by a lot of Reapers' "lives". They had so many ways to ensure that Citadel functions properly no matter what and reduce their losses by a large margin. Instead, they chose a long and resource demanding way which failed in the end. Doesn't look like machines' work.

    As for the "flying through galaxy", I don't think this is how they did this. If all it took them to just fly over was 2 years or something, then why bother with Saren and the Geth at all? It is not like in 2 years much would change in terms of technology for organics. They would be much better off just arriving there to full surprise of organics, quickly taking Citadel by sheer numbers and winning right away. As I understand, they just had a complex system of Relays reaching the dark space, so they just needed to fly to the closest Relay (which might be very close to their "home").
    The explanation to that is that the reapers just showing up and annihilating everything would not have made for a very good storyline.

    I don't think they had much of a system of relays other than the one linking to the citadel either since it took over 2 years to reach the alpha relay.

    The question this brings is more that the reapers are apparently capable of travelling faster than the speed of light without the use of relays, considering the distances they cover in just 2-3 years.
    Last edited by zealo; 2014-05-02 at 01:40 PM.

  12. #18872
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Flying takes too much energy, which then needs to be restored - they have a working system and if there's a way to not change a thing - they won't. It's way more effective to use Citadel Mass Relay - hence the ME1 storyline in which Sovereign attempts exactly that. If it were to succeed that would be it for the last cycle. All the united fleets of the galaxy would be destroyed in one swooping maneuver, Mass Relays would cease to work and then the individual worlds would be ripe for plucking.
    They had to fly on their own exactly because Sovereign failed and Shepard destroyed Alpha Relay (a back up plan).
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  13. #18873
    Herald of the Titans May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    The question this brings is more that the reapers are apparently capable of travelling faster than the speed of light without the use of relays, considering the distances they cover in just 2-3 years.
    Well, FTL speeds are very common in Mass Effect - explanation, AFAIK, is that Eezo effectively makes the mass of a ship negative, which mathematically allows it to travel faster than light. Reapers just use more advanced fields that allow them to travel even faster. But to pass through the galaxy in 2-3 years... Our galaxy is, what, 50k light years in diameter? So they travel at, at least, a few thousands light speeds which is unbelievably fast. More likely, they just needed to reach one of their relays which lays on the edge of the galaxy. Of course, we don't even know what and where the "dark space" is: if it is something in the middle between two galaxies, then there is just no way they reach our galaxy without some kind of relay.

  14. #18874
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    They don't need to pass thu the galaxy, they just need to get to it from the Dark Void, they can get to the nearest Mass Relay and then use Mass Relay system to get around the galaxy
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  15. #18875
    Old God Nerraw's Avatar
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    It appears more and more people believe we'll be seeing ME Next at E3 next month. I really hope that we do!

    And I totally didn't put my 10.000th post in here on purpose *cough*

  16. #18876
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    One problem we have here is that communication itself is limited by the speed of light. Ok we have a theoretical method where you take a substance and modify its mass to be negative to send it through space faster than light, but does that work for energy? Is there a method for sending waves through space faster than light? Relays sure, but how would sovereign communicate with the reapers in deep space? Hyperspace communication is actually more important to a globalized galaxy than hyperspace travel, yet they haven't ever really talked about how that works.
    Still bitter.

  17. #18877
    It's odd this thread is bumped the day I reinstall ME3 to try out multi-player again.

    One thing I noticed is that the reapers say that the cycle has repeated more times then we can fathom... but if the universe's age in Mass Effect is as accurate as ours is in real life around 13.8 billion years. I'm pretty sure we can fathom 13.8B/50,000 years per cycle... So two hundred seventy-six thousand cycles?

  18. #18878
    Mechagnome Nazrark's Avatar
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    I am so ready for E3. With DA:I coming out this year. All BioWare has to do is show a small teaser of MENext and watch us throw money at them on stage.

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  19. #18879
    Elemental Lord Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    One problem we have here is that communication itself is limited by the speed of light. Ok we have a theoretical method where you take a substance and modify its mass to be negative to send it through space faster than light, but does that work for energy? Is there a method for sending waves through space faster than light? Relays sure, but how would sovereign communicate with the reapers in deep space? Hyperspace communication is actually more important to a globalized galaxy than hyperspace travel, yet they haven't ever really talked about how that works.
    Quantum Entanglement, mate, Quantum Entanglement.
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  20. #18880
    Quote Originally Posted by Very Tired View Post
    It's odd this thread is bumped the day I reinstall ME3 to try out multi-player again.

    One thing I noticed is that the reapers say that the cycle has repeated more times then we can fathom... but if the universe's age in Mass Effect is as accurate as ours is in real life around 13.8 billion years. I'm pretty sure we can fathom 13.8B/50,000 years per cycle... So two hundred seventy-six thousand cycles?
    I don't think the reapers are that old due to the content of the DLC pack leviathan, but i can't recall the exact age of them due to not having played me3 DLC in a while now but at least 1 billion years is feasible.

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