1. #9981
    Titan Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Having said that, the control ending is more or less what the Illusive man is after. So that brings me to a question. If paragon shep takes the control ending and is good and uses the reapers to rebuild things what does that say about the Illusive man? Can we make a moral judgement about him with any certainty?
    There are two differences between Shep and TIM. First, TIM's methods to achieve control were brutal, barbaric and evil. Secondly, he would not have used the Reapers to protect those who can't protect themselves and defend the galaxy, but to control and probably terrorize the galaxy into obeying his and Cerberus's rule.

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  2. #9982
    Herald of the Titans Yakobro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orissa View Post
    There are two differences between Shep and TIM. First, TIM's methods to achieve control were brutal, barbaric and evil. Secondly, he would not have used the Reapers to protect those who can't protect themselves and defend the galaxy, but to control and probably terrorize the galaxy into obeying his and Cerberus's rule.
    TBH, all sounds alot like renegade shep

  3. #9983
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakobo15 View Post
    TBH, all sounds alot like renegade shep
    Well Cerberus have always done what they think is right in the way that they think is right which usually involves alot of guns.
    Perfect for renegade shep.

  4. #9984
    The Lightbringer Rukh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orissa View Post
    Actually, Shepard would have failed. Vigil gave Shepard a program to disrupt Sovereign's signal, which (s)he uses after defeating Saren (the first time, unless he shoots himself.)
    Yes he probably would have, but that's still not a deus ex machina device.

  5. #9985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    I may have had some effect on the story...
    But Rhorle doesnt seem to grasp that Bioware just gave us different versions of the same story we could choose from.
    Alternate universes so to speak.
    In the end, Nihlus died. Saren almost took control of the citadel. We died. We worked for TIM. We killed the collectors. Our teams are already picked by Bioware and we can choose 2 of them per mission instead of BRINGING ALL OF THEM! yadda yadda.
    Its biowares story because we cant change the plot, we are simply the puppet with one loose string to move his arm freely but still have to dance to the puppeteers will.
    And we dont have a squadmate using his omniblade to impale the enemies hearts ripping it out and handing it over to the assault trooper behind him... err i mean, create our own teams or execute any of them at will.



    TIM is a anti-hero quite simply.
    He does anything, even cruel and "evil" things, to protect and strengthen the human race and will go any lengths to do that.
    He sacrifised too much and ventured too far and touched the forbidden fruit, corrupting him without him realising it, turning him against what he once shielded.
    He was right all along, but the way he went about it led to his downfall and in the end he realises that he himself is a liability and a risk to what he dedicated his life to protecting and offs himself - leaving Shepard to save the human race in his stead.


    TIM is a tragic hero in his own right.

    The game has always been that way. The game has literally always been adult choose your own adventure in space. I don't understand why you've come to this sudden realization in mass effect 3?? In fact almost every Bioware game has followed this model. Having said that the game is still unique to you which is great. Yea it's limited but it's limited by the tech of our times. Imagine if they could make a game that let you write the story of mass effect. To be honest I'd love to see what you guys could come up with.

    As for TIM you've sorta hit the problem I have with TIM. I see nothing wrong with his mission to control the reapers inherently because I don't think we should deny ourselves useful tools or progress because of the possibility that something bad will happen. However TIM's motives are sketchy clearly. It's one thing to say I do this for humanity, it's another to say I do this for humanity above all else. Basically "die menschlikt uber alles" (forgive my poor german ). Nationalism for the germans and in the case of the Illusive man speciesism. Now in principle Nationalism isn't bad but when Nationalism is a form of power worship or used to gain power at the expense of everyone else who isn't human or a German then yea it's bad. Speciesism I feel is the same. It's okay if you like being a human but why does he have to be a human above all else and have humanity dominate above all else? That's the problem I have with TIM.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-05 at 11:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Rukh View Post
    Yes he probably would have, but that's still not a deus ex machina device.
    How is it not? He came out of nowhere and provided them the means to succeed that they would not have been able to do without. I mean if that's not deus ex then neither is the star child, he did the exact same thing.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #9986
    So that alien races wont threaten to wipe out his own race.
    Considering what the krogans have done, and how the batarians are, and that there will always be some unknown dangers, its a very valid goal in life to strenghten ones own race.
    One cant hide behind peace because it wont protect from anyone that decides to go against it.
    And no treaty on a piece of paper can keep people from being killed.
    Only power can deter.
    Last edited by Gravath; 2012-08-05 at 12:26 PM.

  7. #9987
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    Having said that, the control ending is more or less what the Illusive man is after. So that brings me to a question. If paragon shep takes the control ending and is good and uses the reapers to rebuild things what does that say about the Illusive man? Can we make a moral judgement about him with any certainty?
    Control isn't something that is inherently evil, none of the options are. Motive is everything, and the Illusive Man had evil motives for controlling the Reapers. Yes he wanted to stop them but he wanted to make himself and by extension Humanity into Gods. His whole quest from ME1 to ME3 was create the ultimate super soldier so he could elevate humanity to the only true power.

    I don't think any option is Paragon or Renegade. While the EC option of do nothing is an exception I still think Bioware picked Red, Blue and Green because of those are the primary colors in a RGB color table. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model). And that is the method that we, in real life, use for display any digital colors.

    Yellow, the do nothing option, doesn't fit as one of the Primary colors but is still part of the table obviously since any known color works. Perhaps it is fitting though since do nothing isn't a choice of the Catalyst/Crucible and thus doesn't interact with the digital/computer systems of the Citadel.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-05 at 08:27 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    I may have had some effect on the story...
    But Rhorle doesnt seem to grasp that Bioware just gave us different versions of the same story we could choose from.
    Alternate universes so to speak.
    So how is an alternate universe not a different story? Two people can play all 3 mass effect games and have a different story to them. Yes the core things are all the same but you can pick who lives and dies and other such things. That is creating your own story. You even admit that we create our own stories because that is the only way that Bioware can give different versions of the same story.

    We can't experience different versions if we don't have the power to choose what story we see. Just because you can't do what ever the heck you want doesn't mean you aren't creating a story with the tools Bioware provided you. The did provide you that ability to do whatever you want with the endings though, something you've said you didn't like and is poor story telling.

    So perhaps that is why Bioware didn't give you the ability to rip out hearts and eat them? Because it would be poor story telling, let alone impossible from a technological standpoint, to allow everything in the game to be Open Ended. So they allow you to create your own story with in their story and provide you the tools to do that. You can pick to shove someone out the tower's window, if you shoot a tank of explosive gas to blow a rambling krogan to bits, if you learn about your crew so they don't all die.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2012-08-05 at 12:35 PM.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  8. #9988
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Control isn't something that is inherently evil, none of the options are. Motive is everything, and the Illusive Man had evil motives for controlling the Reapers. Yes he wanted to stop them but he wanted to make himself and by extension Humanity into Gods. His whole quest from ME1 to ME3 was create the ultimate super soldier so he could elevate humanity to the only true power.

    I don't think any option is Paragon or Renegade. While the EC option of do nothing is an exception I still think Bioware picked Red, Blue and Green because of those are the primary colors in a RGB color table. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RGB_color_model). And that is the method that we, in real life, use for display any digital colors.

    Yellow, the do nothing option, doesn't fit as one of the Primary colors but is still part of the table obviously since any known color works. Perhaps it is fitting though since do nothing isn't a choice of the Catalyst/Crucible and thus doesn't interact with the digital/computer systems of the Citadel.[COLOR="red"]
    I think synthesis is inherently evil. Even if you go into that with the best of intentions your effectively telling the whole galaxy you will bend to my will and theirs nothing you can do about it.

    As for RGB and why they picked the colors I just figured it was because those were primary colors. I didn't give it more than a seconds thought outside of that really. I mean if it was aqua or fuchsia who cares.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  9. #9989
    We dont create our own story because bioware have already created the story, they have already created the options and you just branch off at the intersections that seperate them.
    If you cant put in something that bioware didnt already, then you havent created the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    I think synthesis is inherently evil. Even if you go into that with the best of intentions your effectively telling the whole galaxy you will bend to my will and theirs nothing you can do about it.
    Its not harmful, so i wouldnt consider it evil.

  10. #9990
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    it's better to say bioware has created the frame work and you have filled it in with the details. You have both had a hand in shaping the story.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  11. #9991
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    it's better to say bioware has created the frame work and you have filled it in with the details. You have both had a hand in shaping the story.
    No.
    They overfilled the slots with bars and you have to pick one to fit the slot so it can close and operate properly.

  12. #9992
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    but you still have to pick one and that choice will determine how the outcome is arrived at. A different way to reach a similar ending. A different road shows a different picture even if you are all going to the same cabin. Two roads diverged in a yellow wood. Whichever one Robert Frost takes, it doesn't matter because he has many miles to go HOWEVER along the way it will be different. So yes you do have some choice and determination in the story. you both have a hand in shaping the game.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #9993
    You have choice as to what version of the story to see.
    But you do not create jack shit and you do NOT have a hand in shaping the game, only your own experience.
    Its more akin to deciding between drinking vodka or smoking marijuana during gameplay.

  14. #9994
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    I think synthesis is inherently evil. Even if you go into that with the best of intentions your effectively telling the whole galaxy you will bend to my will and theirs nothing you can do about it.
    But all options do that. All Options balance the fate of the galaxy in the Will/Whims of Commander Shepard and there is nothing that anyone can do about it.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  15. #9995
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    or doing both. In the end though your still shaping the adventure. Your universe is unique to you and it's written by your decisions. Yes Bioware did the physical act of writing it into the game but you still pick which one you want and it still becomes "yours" because you picked. Shepard is your shepard and a product of your decisions within the framework provided by the developers. You can say the framework is to narrow and limited and that's a fine argument. You cannot say your decisions don't have an impact in how the story takes shape.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-05 at 12:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But all options do that. All Options balance the fate of the galaxy in the Will/Whims of Commander Shepard and there is nothing that anyone can do about it.
    No they don't. Like lets say you chose renegade control well then people can fight back against Repear Shepard. They might lose but they still have that option. Or let's say you shot the kid, well people can and will still choose the fight the reapers. In Synthesis their is no choice. You are simply merged.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2012-08-05 at 12:48 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #9996
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    If you cant put in something that bioware didnt already, then you havent created the story.
    My Shepard is something that bioware didn't put into the game because the Shepard they picked looks nothing like mine. Bioware gives you the tools to create your own story within their story. If you save everyone in ME2's final mission and I kill everyone off I have created a different story then you did for your ME2 play through.

    We both import our games into ME3 and we both have a completely different story that we can further influence and change with the options in ME3. Just because I am not adding my own art, textures, scripts, and what ever else doesn't mean I am not creating a story. Bioware provides the Lego blocks and the players create different versions of the same lego set.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-05 at 08:47 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    You have choice as to what version of the story to see.
    But you do not create jack shit and you do NOT have a hand in shaping the game, only your own experience.
    Its more akin to deciding between drinking vodka or smoking marijuana during gameplay.
    I don't shape the game? Options I make in ME 2 or ME1 drastically change what options I have available in ME3. That is shaping the game and that is creating a different story then the one you've experienced if you've made different choices.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  17. #9997
    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    You cannot say your decisions don't have an impact in how the story takes shape.
    I havent argued against that.
    I am simply arguing that you do not make the story, its Biowares story and we are simply given a few more tools than usually.

    And there is nothing unique about the story you see.
    Millions of that exact version have been seen by others.

    If you want to make your own story, write one. Hell, you might even do a better one.
    But dont play someone else's and think its yours.

  18. #9998
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    My Shepard is something that bioware didn't put into the game because the Shepard they picked looks nothing like mine. Bioware gives you the tools to create your own story within their story. If you save everyone in ME2's final mission and I kill everyone off I have created a different story then you did for your ME2 play through.

    We both import our games into ME3 and we both have a completely different story that we can further influence and change with the options in ME3.
    ...then we both pick the same ending (for example left side) and we both have the same ending - that's most brilliant part of this game.
    Now here we stand with their blood on our hands
    We fought so hard now can we understand

  19. #9999
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    I havent argued against that.
    I am simply arguing that you do not make the story, its Biowares story and we are simply given a few more tools than usually.

    And there is nothing unique about the story you see.
    Millions of that exact version have been seen by others.

    If you want to make your own story, write one. Hell, you might even do better.
    But dont play someone else's and think its yours.
    Again in a very real sense your deicisons do help SHAPE your UNIQUE story. I have very little concern about what other millions have seen. My shepard is unique to me and my circle.

    I've had ideas and taken notes. Still need more to flush out. It's funny but when you said that I immediately thought of:

    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  20. #10000
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atrahasis View Post
    No they don't. Like lets say you chose renegade control well then people can fight back against Repear Shepard. They might lose but they still have that option. Or let's say you shot the kid, well people can and will still choose the fight the reapers. In Synthesis their is no choice. You are simply merged.
    If you pick Red, destroy, synthetic life has no choice to live. They are all wiped out.
    If you pick Green, synthesis, people have no choice in having their DNA rewritten.
    If you pick Control, people have no choice but to accept the Reapers.

    Any action Shepard does impacts the entire Galaxy. If the entire Galaxy wants to become a new type of life or wants to have the Reapers controlled it doesn't matter if Shepard wants to Destroy them (and all synthetic life). Only Shepard has a say in the matter
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

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