1. #11681
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    Quote Originally Posted by The EagleOwl Mage View Post
    Pretty sure it was only mentioned twice or so.
    Apart from the link I provided here's a few hints that I remember:

    * Mordin pointing out the genetic diversity in humans in Mass Effect 2
    * Haestrom in Mass Effect 2
    * The Human Reaper in Mass Effect 2
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So how exactly does the "Genetic Diversity" of humans make them the most suitable to finding the end to the problem of Dark Energy? Humans certainly aren't the most advanced species which points to the problem of Dark Energy not being a technological one but of genetics.
    Humans develop fast and adapt better than others. They might be not the most technologically developed species in the cycle - but sure have the most potential. According to reapers - it's not my assessment. They know better.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Why would the Reapers kill humans in order to reach that goal. Why not approach them peacefully? Wouldn't it have made more sense to assimilate everyone given that the Reapers have no known limit in resources or storage space? Also why erase all traces if your goal is to get someone to solve the problem. Wouldn't you leave behind information that could actually help? Instead of just letting people see nothing until it is time for you to come and destroy them? Remember that the sun at Haelstrom never would have been noticed if the normal Reaper cycle happened. It only appeared due to the delay of the cycle by 3 or so years.
    Peacefully? Like "Hi hunams, care to join our fleet of reapers? All you need to do is - die." Do not forget - they are half machines - they chose the most efficient way in time limited situation. If species failed the cycle (didn't notice Haelstrom in time) - they need to die so new species would emerge. What kind of peaceful solution could achieve this? None.
    Erasing all the traces - I explained. So species would develop naturally - without artifacts. Which tend to portray Reapers as REAPERS. They are but they are for the better good - revealing themselves early thru artifacts - would ruin the cycle. Because species would focus on defeating them rather than on the problem. Also natural development leads them to relays and then to Citadel - the "mouse trap". This is the plan. Imagine species finding "Liara's message" and breaking the cycle - the galaxy would be doomed.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And again how is "killing you because you'd be killed eventually" any better then "killing you so you don't kill yourself"? You keep making the current ending into a joke while failing to see the Dark Ending for what it is. Something filled with just as many if not more holes. It isn't better then the current ones that is for sure. And the Human proto reaper looked the way it did in Mass Effect 2 because it wasn't finished. All Reapers look the same once their outer shell is in place and they are finished. They all look different underneath. http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/File:Wcb6ug.png
    First of all I'm not talking just about endings. I didn't see Dark Energy scenario endings. And leaked info is hardly enough to make a judgement.
    Second, It's not "we kill you because you get killed anyway" - it's "we kill you to save the galaxy". "you exist because we allow it - you will die because we demand it". Reapers sacrificed themselves to allow new species to emerge. They surely do not need to explain themselves why they are exterminating the failure species.
    There are no holes whatsoever. The whole thing is pretty logical. Cultivate new species, if they fail, erase them and cultivate new. Save the most potential species though and add them to the "science lab". The search for the solution was on two fronts: reapers in the "science lab" and new species. Each cycle increases the chances to find a solution. If it is at all possible.
    As for reaper-larva - that doesn't change a thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    We know that the Reapers erase all existence of past cycles so no one is prepared to defend against them. This is why we see that even in a failed ending Liara and her drones lead to an ending of the cycle. And why the Prothean ruins lead to the Defeat of sovereign and the reapers (through various VI's, repository information, tech, and the crucible plans). If any universe wide problem existed it is counter productive to cull people every 50,000 years and erase all traces. You would at least plant the seed of the problem you want fixed to focus them on that task.
    They planted the seed of the problem - The Technology, thru relays and Citadel. Are you paying attention at all? Or should I just stop?
    They erased species for two purposes - preserving the purity of new species and making it more easier to cull the failed ones. They are not stupid. Just because one of the purposes is present in both scenarious - doesn't mean shit. In fact "easier culling" purpose is more fitting the "Dark Energy" scenario - because in "Starchild" scenario reapers are not limited in time - they could've just combed the galaxy checking in every square light-millisecond and kill everyone - if they wanted to. They could've just orbited the habitable planets - you know, I mentioned it in last post. They couldv'e go the Ur-Quan way from Star Control 2. And Shield all the planets with life. So even if synthetics are developed - they would be automatically quarantined and then destroyed by reapers. Does "Starchild" scenario still make sense to you? If not think about this: take reapers goal and devise YOUR solution. Is it the same as Starchild's? Couldn't you come up with BETTER one?
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Also if you look over the actual paste bin of the leak you will find that there were still going to be ending choices like there was now. And the that Omega DLC was part of the leaked script. And Dark Space filling up in one ending but not another? Each ending would presumably have infinite Reapers. Because both endings reasons for the Cycle wouldn't have been solved regardless. As remember the leaked ending didn't have the problem being solved just Shepard sacrificing Humanity or the Reapers.
    And I'm not talking bout endings. Not about those choices. I was fine with choices - it's the explanation of the premise that have blown my mind. It's like I was reading a book (a trilogy) and at the end of the book three author goes "Forget what you've read so far, it's all false and unimportant - here's what this is all about".
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Both endings employ Space Magic. Both endings would have had the Catalyst. Dark Energy or a wave of energy (that presumably pulls from Dark energy since that is what the relays draw upon as stated with the Alpha Relay). It is still "space magic". The most amusing thing of all is that the current ending would have still fit even with "because of Dark energy".
    Yes, it is. But more plausible one. So we are back to my initial point.

    P.S. Consider Starchild scenario and answer these questions:
    1. Why did Sovereign need to WAKE the Reapers? Don't they have like an ALARM CLOCK set to 50000 years?
    2. Why Reapers needed keepers to wake them? Look p.1.
    3. Reapers failed to prevent Geth, why? Why didn't Sovereign destroy them? Why did he took control of them instead?
    4. Javik in ME3 tells a tale of their own Synthetics and the war which Proteans won. Where the fuck were Reapers? Why didn't they give that cycle another chance?
    5. Why not a peaceful solution? Like "Hi Hunams/Arasis/Tuniars/Saralians/Whatever, don't build AI, please. thank you in advance".
    6. Why reapers sleep in dark space? Why do they need to limit the usage of Dark Energy Tech of their Cores? Boggles the mind.
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2012-11-18 at 12:12 PM.

  3. #11683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Apart from the link I provided here's a few hints that I remember:

    * Mordin pointing out the genetic diversity in humans in Mass Effect 2
    * Haestrom in Mass Effect 2
    * The Human Reaper in Mass Effect 2
    A link to a leak of what could have happened isn't mention to the game. Not withstanding the fact the forum page you link to doesn't show anything behind the spoiler tags and the original SomethingAwful thread linked to later is behind a paid subscription barrier.

    Genetic Diversity has nothing to do with Dark energy so isn't mention of it. The Human Reaper isn't directly because of Dark Energy so is again something that has nothing to do with the plot of Dark Energy. The only thing that has to do with Dark Energy that you listed from the games before ME3 is Haestrom. Eezo, Biotics, FTL, Relays etc all use Dark Energy or create it to perform their tasks. That really isn't a major theme though anymore then Krogan Headbutts is. Krogan's would only defeat the reapers with a Headbutt if Theldurin was telling the story.
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  4. #11684
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Genetic Diversity has nothing to do with Dark energy so isn't mention of it. The Human Reaper isn't directly because of Dark Energy so is again something that has nothing to do with the plot of Dark Energy. The only thing that has to do with Dark Energy that you listed from the games before ME3 is Haestrom. Eezo, Biotics, FTL, Relays etc all use Dark Energy or create it to perform their tasks. That really isn't a major theme though anymore then Krogan Headbutts is.
    It didn't need to be the major theme. These were the clues hidden right before our eyes. It's this thing called the reaper mystery that supposed to be revealed in ME3. This is a work of good writers at its finest. These are just pieces to the puzzle. If you consider the "dark energy" reveal in ME3 instead of Starchild all these little "unimportant" pieces fall into their respective places. And you get this: "wait a minute, it all makes sense now" sensation. Instead of "wtf happened to the story of ME1 and ME2?" excuse of a sensation.

    It just makes sense. I can't believe we are arguing about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    A link to a leak of what could have happened isn't mention to the game. Not withstanding the fact the forum page you link to doesn't show anything behind the spoiler tags and the original SomethingAwful thread linked to later is behind a paid subscription barrier.

    Genetic Diversity has nothing to do with Dark energy so isn't mention of it. The Human Reaper isn't directly because of Dark Energy so is again something that has nothing to do with the plot of Dark Energy. The only thing that has to do with Dark Energy that you listed from the games before ME3 is Haestrom. Eezo, Biotics, FTL, Relays etc all use Dark Energy or create it to perform their tasks. That really isn't a major theme though anymore then Krogan Headbutts is. Krogan's would only defeat the reapers with a Headbutt if Theldurin was telling the story.
    It's just as much a theme as "Synthetics vs. Organics".

    To clarify: the Dark Energy plot was one of the intended endings that were on the table, and there were most definitely hints at it throughout Mass Effect 1 & 2. Why it wasn't picked as the ending for ME3 we'll never know.
    Last edited by Dezerte; 2012-11-18 at 04:31 PM.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Humans develop fast and adapt better than others. They might be not the most technologically developed species in the cycle - but sure have the most potential. According to reapers - it's not my assessment. They know better.
    Right, but you are making a claim for it supporting Dark Energy. Rather then just being a trait of Humanity that sets them apart from everyone else. Why would Genetic Diversity be better to solve the problem of the universe being destroyed from Dark Energy? It has to be the universe because the Reapers are capable of inter galactic travel. Why would they care if the Milky Way gets destroyed when they could just move somewhere else?

    Why is it okay for Bioware to say "Oh because the reapers know better no other explanation" and not "Oh an energy wave does it and no other explanation". You are willing to accept one "Just because" but not another. I'm not asking for you to write the story that Bioware would have but in order for you to explain and show how the leaked ending is far superior then the actual ME3 ending you have to be able to answer these things other then "Just because I said so".

    Peacefully? Like "Hi hunams, care to join our fleet of reapers? All you need to do is - die." Do not forget - they are half machines - they chose the most efficient way in time limited situation. If species failed the cycle (didn't notice Haelstrom in time) - they need to die so new species would emerge. What kind of peaceful solution could achieve this? None.
    Peaceful like telling the galaxy what the problem is and if they have any off the wall ideas on how to fix the problem. You know actually seeing if they can help before erasing them from existence and then finding out if they can help. And Haestrom was noticed at least 300 years prior to the end of the Cycle. The Quarians had a scientific outpost there to study the unstable sun but were forced out by the Geth Rebellion. Hmm a synthetic vs Organic conflict causing troulbe perhaps the current ME3 ending is on to something... http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Haestrom and http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dholen

    They planted the seed of the problem - The Technology, thru relays and Citadel. Are you paying attention at all? Or should I just stop?
    You should just stop. Because use of Eezo creates Dark Energy. Use of FTL, Biotics, Mass Relays all create Dark Energy. Then we have the Reapers themselves using a Relay that requires a super large amount of Dark Energy in order for them to use it. Why would the Reapers populate the galaxy and have every cycle use technology that would cause a problem.

    This also raises the question on how the Reapers counter act the effect of each cycles usage. Each cycle would be generating and adding to the problem of Dark Energy. Why would the reapers add to the problem in order to stop the problem? Eventually the Reapers own actions with the cycles would cause the galaxy to be destroyed by Dark Energy. Which means that Dark Energy can't be a problem because if it was then it would have destroyed the galaxy long before Shepards cycle.

    " When subjected to powerful electrical currents, element zero releases dark energy that can be harnessed to create mass effect fields, effectively raising or lowering the relative mass of all objects within the field. With the eezo nodules and natural electrical impulses in their nervous systems, biotics can generate and wield dark energy biologically, but the effort is physically demanding. "
    http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_energy

    And that is lore that exists prior to Mass Effect 3. The Dark Energy Theory is flawed from the very start of the leak. It was possible for Bioware to create new lore in Mass Effect 3 to attempt to explain it. But perhaps they changed directions because of the very flaws I'm pointing out. Or perhaps they are still going to go with Dark Energy as a larger issue but the Reapers weren't created to solve it but created to keep Organics and Synthetics from destroying each other. Which would leave time for Leviathan and the rest of their race to solve the problem. Dark Energy can fit but it doesn't really work for why the Reapers are doing what they do.

    And I'm not talking bout endings. Not about those choices. I was fine with choices - it's the explanation of the premise that have blown my mind. It's like I was reading a book (a trilogy) and at the end of the book three author goes "Forget what you've read so far, it's all false and unimportant - here's what this is all about".
    Then why do you think the Dark Energy ending would have been any different? From the writer of the Dark Energy ending http://www.oxm.co.uk/39736/revealed-...efore-release/

    ""The original final choice was going to be 'Kill the Reapers and put your faith in the races of the galaxy in finding another way to stop the spread with what little time is left' or 'Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means.'"


    There was still going to be the same ultimate choice that has nothing to do with your past choices and alliances. It all came down to finding another way to stop the spread or sacrificing Humanity to become a reaper. The premise of Dark Energy was still Forget everything else and here is what it is all about. The Theory of Dark Energy would never have been explained prior to Mass Effect 3. Just as the Theory of the Catalyst, Crucible and an Energy being able to do something unknown (since no one ever used the Crucible and only the Protheans successfully built it prior)

    1. Why did Sovereign need to WAKE the Reapers? Don't they have like an ALARM CLOCK set to 50000 years?
    Explained in Mass Effect 1 by Vigil. The Protheans modified the Keepers and stopped the Alarm Clock from going off. This is why Sovereign assaulted the Citadel because he had to manually activate the signal. That Signal that had to be activate could have been the Catalyst. Or it could be what activate the Catalyst. Yes there are questions but it doesn't invalidate what happened just because something isn't known.

    2. Why Reapers needed keepers to wake them? Look p.1.
    The reason why they need them is regardless of what ever the Catalyst or Dark Energy. Because the Keepers are the care takers of the Citadel. The catalyst is shown to still be restricted by certain programing which is why the ending options only became available after the Crucible. Besides an AI can't do everything to accommodate life on the Citadel. The Keepers ran the place, repaired it, and kept the inhabitants from finding the central control room where the Catalyst was or the "Reapers were here" info is.

    3. Reapers failed to prevent Geth, why? Why didn't Sovereign destroy them? Why did he took control of them instead?
    Because the Reapers don't just kill people off when they meet a certain criteria. It is established they they do whatever cleansing needs to be done in cycles. And Sovereign took control of the Geth because it wanted to replace the Keepers with the Geth. And the Geth allowed it to remain hidden while still attempting to follow its goal. And it worked as the events of Mass Effect 2 show. Everyone but a select few thought it was all the Geth and not Reapers.

    4. Javik in ME3 tells a tale of their own Synthetics and the war which Proteans won. Where the fuck were Reapers? Why didn't they give that cycle another chance? 5. Why not a peaceful solution? Like "Hi Hunams/Arasis/Tuniars/Saralians/Whatever, don't build AI, please. thank you in advance".
    Because as Leviathan explains some being some where in the Galaxy always broke the rules and it kept leading to Chaos. That is why the Reapers were created to ensure the existence of Organic life (in Reaper Form) so they wouldn't cause Chaos. The ironic thing was that the AI created to solve the problem was originally a symptom of the problem.

    A peaceful solution was only possible through Synthesis with the Crucible. Otherwise it was stuff the Reapers have seen cycles ago. Just because the Quarians and the Geth can coexist peacefully doesn't mean all AI's start out that way. Which leads to a new conflict with a new AI and Organics. Remember that the Geth and EDI were really only able to become "evolved" through Reaper tech. Though the Legion didn't originally have reaper upgrades he was sort of a fluke amongst Geth (it was never really explained why Legion become Legion in the first place).

    6. Why reapers sleep in dark space? Why do they need to limit the usage of Dark Energy Tech of their Cores? Boggles the mind.
    Maybe they require each cycle to create enough Dark Energy for them to power themselves? The Reapers don't need to limit the usage of their Dark Energy tech. They would only need to do that if the Dark Energy theory was true. The Reapers just being Reapers create Dark Energy through the use of Eezo which is what their cores use (or at least the in game lore "speculates" since it is never really stated out right).

    They go into hibernation or Dark Space because what else will they do while they let the next cycle grow? They only cull sentient life at certain stages. Remember they left Asari, Hanar, and others alone when the culled the Protheans. They aren't just interested in all life, or all sentient life. But they are interested in specific kinds which requires them to wait. They also need to hide somewhere so they aren't discovered ruing the cycles maturation and possibly allowing that cycle to defeat them (as is shown possible by Liara and her drones doing if the current cycle fails).

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 11:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    It didn't need to be the major theme. These were the clues hidden right before our eyes. It's this thing called the reaper mystery that supposed to be revealed in ME3. This is a work of good writers at its finest. These are just pieces to the puzzle. If you consider the "dark energy" reveal in ME3 instead of Starchild all these little "unimportant" pieces fall into their respective places. And you get this: "wait a minute, it all makes sense now" sensation. Instead of "wtf happened to the story of ME1 and ME2?" excuse of a sensation.

    It just makes sense. I can't believe we are arguing about it.
    Flash forward a few months ago and your reasoning can be applied word for word for the Indoctrination Theory. Just change "Dark Energy" with "Indoctrination". We are discussing it because that is what the forums are for. And you are making a claim.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-18 at 11:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    It's just as much a theme as "Synthetics vs. Organics".
    If by theme you mean that Dark Energy is created by anything that uses Eezo then yes it is a theme. But it is never developed into a theme beyond that. And certainly not into one where the Galaxy will be destroyed if Dark Energy is not stopped. The actual existing lore of what creates Dark Energy would seem to indicate it isn't a problem that would lead to destruction since as I stated in another post every cycle creates massive amounts through using the Mass Relays alone.

    Where as Synthetics versus Organics have several developed plots to it. The only developed plot for Dark Energy being a problem was Haestrom and it began and ended with that mission.

    It was never developed. Genetic Diversity doesn't develop it nor does Human Reaper. They would have been related to a potential plot development but are not proof of that plot already existing.
    Last edited by rhorle; 2012-11-18 at 04:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If by theme you mean that Dark Energy is created by anything that uses Eezo then yes it is a theme. But it is never developed into a theme beyond that. And certainly not into one where the Galaxy will be destroyed if Dark Energy is not stopped. The actual existing lore of what creates Dark Energy would seem to indicate it isn't a problem that would lead to destruction since as I stated in another post every cycle creates massive amounts through using the Mass Relays alone.

    Where as Synthetics versus Organics have several developed plots to it. The only developed plot for Dark Energy being a problem was Haestrom and it began and ended with that mission.

    It was never developed. Genetic Diversity doesn't develop it nor does Human Reaper. They would have been related to a potential plot development but are not proof of that plot already existing.
    Maybe there was more developed plots for S vs. O, how you quantify these will vary from person to person. But let's say for the sake of discussion that I agree with you, read this: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...drew-karpyshyn

    "Yes, we had a plan, but it was very vague. We knew we wanted to focus on some key themes and bring in certain key elements: organics vs synthetics; the Reapers; the Mass Relays. Beyond that, we didn't go into detail because we knew it would change radically as the game continued to evolve,"

    "From what I've heard, they did go in a different direction than what we had originally planned, but that's not surprising - projects evolve, and you rarely end up in the place you expected when you first started."
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Maybe there was more developed plots for S vs. O, how you quantify these will vary from person to person. But let's say for the sake of discussion that I agree with you, read this: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...drew-karpyshyn
    And what exactly are you trying to say? That at one point they considered Dark Energy for a ending? Yes we know that. They also had Cerberus as just a throw away group but they evolved into something more because the Ascension book and took on a role critical to the plots of the games. The thing being discussed in regard to the Dark Energy theory isn't if it was every intended to be or thought up as a possible ending but if the theory would fit as the ending for mass effect given how the lore and stories of Mass Effect 1 and 2 evolved.

    https://twitter.com/DrewKarpyshyn/st...82584155590656 "From what I hear, the basic concept of the original ending is there, though some details may have been tweaked"

    https://twitter.com/DrewKarpyshyn/st...82864288960512 "Dark Energy was on the table at one point, but the original idea for the ending was all about Reapers and Mass Relays"
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And what exactly are you trying to say? That at one point they considered Dark Energy for a ending? Yes we know that. They also had Cerberus as just a throw away group but they evolved into something more because the Ascension book and took on a role critical to the plots of the games. The thing being discussed in regard to the Dark Energy theory isn't if it was every intended to be or thought up as a possible ending but if the theory would fit as the ending for mass effect given how the lore and stories of Mass Effect 1 and 2 evolved.

    https://twitter.com/DrewKarpyshyn/st...82584155590656 "From what I hear, the basic concept of the original ending is there, though some details may have been tweaked"

    https://twitter.com/DrewKarpyshyn/st...82864288960512 "Dark Energy was on the table at one point, but the original idea for the ending was all about Reapers and Mass Relays"
    That the Dark Energy plot could just as well fit into the ending, because it was hinted at (as confirmed by Drew himself).
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Right, but you are making a claim for it supporting Dark Energy. Rather then just being a trait of Humanity that sets them apart from everyone else. Why would Genetic Diversity be better to solve the problem of the universe being destroyed from Dark Energy?
    My claim was in the context of how they choose species to build a reaper from - it supports Dark Energy only because for Dark Energy you have to choose the best suitable. Considering that reapers are built from DNA - Genetic Diversity would be a huge plus for a resulting Reaper.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    It has to be the universe because the Reapers are capable of inter galactic travel. Why would they care if the Milky Way gets destroyed when they could just move somewhere else?
    How naive. What will happen to the "new" galaxy? Same thing. So they move on to the next one? GOOD PLAN.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Why is it okay for Bioware to say "Oh because the reapers know better no other explanation" and not "Oh an energy wave does it and no other explanation". You are willing to accept one "Just because" but not another. I'm not asking for you to write the story that Bioware would have but in order for you to explain and show how the leaked ending is far superior then the actual ME3 ending you have to be able to answer these things other then "Just because I said so".
    I said I have no problem with "energy wave".
    Also I didn't say "far superior" I said more plausible.
    Please stop trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Peaceful like telling the galaxy what the problem is and if they have any off the wall ideas on how to fix the problem. You know actually seeing if they can help before erasing them from existence and then finding out if they can help.
    They couldn't solve the problem by conventional means. Get it? They couldn't solve problem in reaper form. Get it?
    They couldn't just go and tell rookies - "here's the problem now solve it". It would achieve nothing. Half the rookies would just say "gtfo".
    There's an advantage in encountering the problem first hand and trying to solve it. It may lead to interesting results. New ideas, etc.
    If reapers would just tell about it - they would have to give their research data - and that would lead to fail - because that research has already failed. it would be a dead end. They needed a fresh view on the problem and devised the only way to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And Haestrom was noticed at least 300 years prior to the end of the Cycle. The Quarians had a scientific outpost there to study the unstable sun but were forced out by the Geth Rebellion. Hmm a synthetic vs Organic conflict causing troulbe perhaps the current ME3 ending is on to something... http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Haestrom and http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dholen
    Do not mix two scenarios. In Dark Energy scenario Geth or Synthetics - do not matter. They are part of the cycle. And their actions led to a failure.
    In Starchild scenario Dark Energy doesn't matter - synthetics were a menace to life, not galaxy.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    You should just stop. Because use of Eezo creates Dark Energy. Use of FTL, Biotics, Mass Relays all create Dark Energy.
    Maybe I should. Because you do not know lore of ME that well. Hence all the wiki links... you miss a lot of crucial details. The one in particular here is that: all that you mentioned was derived from Relays. The whole Mass Effect technology that causes the problem. Comes from Relays. The reaper technology placed there to be found... I explained that before already, numerous times.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Then we have the Reapers themselves using a Relay that requires a super large amount of Dark Energy in order for them to use it. Why would the Reapers populate the galaxy and have every cycle use technology that would cause a problem.
    To solve it, DOH! Do notice that the use of Mass Effect technology is PRETTY SHORT and signifies the coming of the Harvest.
    And reapers sleep in dark space using as little of Dark Energy and as far away from galaxies as possible. Explain this in "Synthetics are evil" scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    This also raises the question on how the Reapers counter act the effect of each cycles usage. Each cycle would be generating and adding to the problem of Dark Energy. Why would the reapers add to the problem in order to stop the problem? Eventually the Reapers own actions with the cycles would cause the galaxy to be destroyed by Dark Energy. Which means that Dark Energy can't be a problem because if it was then it would have destroyed the galaxy long before Shepards cycle.
    No. I don't even know where to begin. First of all, it's not like you turn the Core on and galaxy goes boom. No. The problem is there but it is far from being an immediate danger. The limited controlled use of Dark energy Technology is possible for the purposes of solving the problem.
    Reapers made a gamble. Limit the use of technology in cycles and use cycles to solve the problem. Each cycle have a potential to solve the problem or provides a new reaper. the more reapers there are the faster they will find the solution. The more cycles there are the higher the chance of finding the solution thru cycles.
    It can lead to two ends:
    1. Solution found.
    2. Time's up.

    They placed all their bets on finding the solution before the time runs out.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    " When subjected to powerful electrical currents, element zero releases dark energy that can be harnessed to create mass effect fields, effectively raising or lowering the relative mass of all objects within the field. With the eezo nodules and natural electrical impulses in their nervous systems, biotics can generate and wield dark energy biologically, but the effort is physically demanding. "
    http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Dark_energy

    And that is lore that exists prior to Mass Effect 3. The Dark Energy Theory is flawed from the very start of the leak. It was possible for Bioware to create new lore in Mass Effect 3 to attempt to explain it. But perhaps they changed directions because of the very flaws I'm pointing out. Or perhaps they are still going to go with Dark Energy as a larger issue but the Reapers weren't created to solve it but created to keep Organics and Synthetics from destroying each other. Which would leave time for Leviathan and the rest of their race to solve the problem. Dark Energy can fit but it doesn't really work for why the Reapers are doing what they do.
    WHAT FLAW?
    And how can you see any sense in Organic vs Synthetics? It's stupid. You do not need no cycles nor harvesting to achieve that. You can even go all the peaceful way you so enjoy... Please stop this bullshit. There will be no Dark Energy problem in ME unless they retcon ME3 entirely. Including DLCs. Like Leviathan.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Then why do you think the Dark Energy ending would have been any different? From the writer of the Dark Energy ending http://www.oxm.co.uk/39736/revealed-...efore-release/

    ""The original final choice was going to be 'Kill the Reapers and put your faith in the races of the galaxy in finding another way to stop the spread with what little time is left' or 'Sacrifice humanity, allowing them to be horrifically processed in hopes that the end result will justify the means.'"
    I'm not talking about ENDINGS.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There was still going to be the same ultimate choice that has nothing to do with your past choices and alliances. It all came down to finding another way to stop the spread or sacrificing Humanity to become a reaper. The premise of Dark Energy was still Forget everything else and here is what it is all about. The Theory of Dark Energy would never have been explained prior to Mass Effect 3. Just as the Theory of the Catalyst, Crucible and an Energy being able to do something unknown (since no one ever used the Crucible and only the Protheans successfully built it prior)
    The premise was MAKING SENSE. It wasn't "forget everything" - it was "remember all that? now you know what it meant"

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Explained in Mass Effect 1 by Vigil. The Protheans modified the Keepers and stopped the Alarm Clock from going off. This is why Sovereign assaulted the Citadel because he had to manually activate the signal. That Signal that had to be activate could have been the Catalyst. Or it could be what activate the Catalyst. Yes there are questions but it doesn't invalidate what happened just because something isn't known.
    Fuuuuuck... The question was: why the fuck do they need the keepers/sovereign/whatever. Who builds an enormous Alarm Clock and then places it so far away - so you need help hearing it? Couldn't they just come over every 50000 years to check things out? This is not just some question. It's plain stupidity in Synthetics vs Organics scenario. Why Reapers even retreat to dark space in the first place? Why? I do not get it. Arrival DLC was just plain stupid. No wonder, it was made in light of ME3. Somehow reapers came. So what's the point of Sovereign? Harbinger?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    The reason why they need them is regardless of what ever the Catalyst or Dark Energy. Because the Keepers are the care takers of the Citadel. The catalyst is shown to still be restricted by certain programing which is why the ending options only became available after the Crucible. Besides an AI can't do everything to accommodate life on the Citadel. The Keepers ran the place, repaired it, and kept the inhabitants from finding the central control room where the Catalyst was or the "Reapers were here" info is.
    Why they need them to make a call? Of course keepers have many other uses. That's irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because the Reapers don't just kill people off when they meet a certain criteria. It is established they they do whatever cleansing needs to be done in cycles. And Sovereign took control of the Geth because it wanted to replace the Keepers with the Geth. And the Geth allowed it to remain hidden while still attempting to follow its goal. And it worked as the events of Mass Effect 2 show. Everyone but a select few thought it was all the Geth and not Reapers.
    Yeah. it fits nicely into Dark Energy scenario. But not into the Synthetics vs Organics. the sole goal of Reapers - not allowing Synthetics. Sovereign was obligated to destroy Geth - he didn't. Keepers could be replaced by any other race - Asari would do nicely. Not to mention the fact that they do not need keepers. You're grasping for straws.


    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Because as Leviathan explains some being some where in the Galaxy always broke the rules and it kept leading to Chaos. That is why the Reapers were created to ensure the existence of Organic life (in Reaper Form) so they wouldn't cause Chaos. The ironic thing was that the AI created to solve the problem was originally a symptom of the problem.
    It just makes no sense. Reapers could patrol the galaxy and peacefully remind everyone to not build no AI. Punish the rule breakers. Keep the ORDER. Something we see in blue ending. Funny heh?
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    A peaceful solution was only possible through Synthesis with the Crucible. Otherwise it was stuff the Reapers have seen cycles ago. Just because the Quarians and the Geth can coexist peacefully doesn't mean all AI's start out that way. Which leads to a new conflict with a new AI and Organics. Remember that the Geth and EDI were really only able to become "evolved" through Reaper tech. Though the Legion didn't originally have reaper upgrades he was sort of a fluke amongst Geth (it was never really explained why Legion become Legion in the first place).
    A peaceful solution is to outlaw AI and enforce it - reapers can enforce it. There would've been no humans though as there would've been no cycles. But it would've worked.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Maybe they require each cycle to create enough Dark Energy for them to power themselves? The Reapers don't need to limit the usage of their Dark Energy tech. They would only need to do that if the Dark Energy theory was true. The Reapers just being Reapers create Dark Energy through the use of Eezo which is what their cores use (or at least the in game lore "speculates" since it is never really stated out right).
    They do not need cycles if it's not Dark Energy scenario.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They go into hibernation or Dark Space because what else will they do while they let the next cycle grow? They only cull sentient life at certain stages. Remember they left Asari, Hanar, and others alone when the culled the Protheans. They aren't just interested in all life, or all sentient life. But they are interested in specific kinds which requires them to wait. They also need to hide somewhere so they aren't discovered ruing the cycles maturation and possibly allowing that cycle to defeat them (as is shown possible by Liara and her drones doing if the current cycle fails).
    They could oversee. Prevent AI from being built. They do not need to hide. No reason for that what-so-ever. If they were peaceful police units - there would be no war with the reapers.
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Flash forward a few months ago and your reasoning can be applied word for word for the Indoctrination Theory. Just change "Dark Energy" with "Indoctrination". We are discussing it because that is what the forums are for. And you are making a claim.
    No IT fits perfectly fine into DE scenario.

  11. #11691
    Scarab Lord Puck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Apart from the link I provided here's a few hints that I remember:

    * Mordin pointing out the genetic diversity in humans in Mass Effect 2
    * Haestrom in Mass Effect 2
    * The Human Reaper in Mass Effect 2
    The organic VS Synthetic plot had more relevance to the game than just a few missions. I feel as thought the Dark energy plot would have been even more unexpected and convoluted.
    Last edited by Puck; 2012-11-18 at 07:44 PM.

  12. #11692
    Immortal Dezerte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The EagleOwl Mage View Post
    The organic VS Synthetic plot had more relevance to the game than just a few missions. I feel as thought the Dark energy plot would have been even more unexpected and convoluted.
    To me, the O vs. S plot felt very simple and generic. But I'm not here to discuss my opinion (I've already gone through this months ago ), just pointing out a few things.
    To declare that a personal, inner experience gives certainty about the workings of the universe is to assign far too much value to one’s subjective sense of conviction.
    I’m not that arrogant.

    The brain, marvelous instrument though it is, isn’t infallible. It can misfire, seize or hallucinate, and it can do so in a way that’s utterly indistinguishable from reality to the person experiencing it.

  13. #11693
    Rhorle, chill mate. Not only I just ignored whatever you wrote, but the ending also still sucks =(

    Did I mentioned already how silly it is that magical space wave that turns tree's into cyborgs?!?! ah ah ah ~ robot tree's ~

  14. #11694
    Herald of the Titans Yakobro's Avatar
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    AAYFSDAY AFK PEOPLE!!!

    Just lost out on playing with this guy ;__;

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 07:09 AM ----------

    Well, first platinum done

    Fuck waves 5&8

  15. #11695
    Quote Originally Posted by Yakobo15 View Post
    AAYFSDAY AFK PEOPLE!!!

    Just lost out on playing with this guy ;__;

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 07:09 AM ----------

    Well, first platinum done

    Fuck waves 5&8
    Nice one! I thought that sort of thing was nigh on impossible in a group of randoms.

  16. #11696
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrmwing View Post
    Nice one! I thought that sort of thing was nigh on impossible in a group of randoms.

    It is, but Yakobo got boosted.
    Last edited by Gravath; 2012-11-19 at 10:54 AM.

  17. #11697
    Herald of the Titans The Illusive Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myobi View Post
    Rhorle, chill mate. Not only I just ignored whatever you wrote, but the ending also still sucks =(

    Did I mentioned already how silly it is that magical space wave that turns tree's into cyborgs?!?! ah ah ah ~ robot tree's ~
    How can you guys still discuss the endings after so many months? Had to laugh at how rhorle tried to argue desperately on that topic

    BTW: Looking forward to Omega ... finally something to get me back to ME3 for a few days.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 01:48 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzual View Post
    Starchild and the nightmare scenes you have to do are the only things I sincerely dislike about ME3. I know Shepard is human, but it bothers me that the "super badass renegade" you spend two games building who "takes no sh*t" is plagued by the memory of ONE dead child. It's not even like it was gruesome, he didn't see the child's corpse. It's a shame and I don't like it. (The scenes themselves are an absolute bore to go through)
    This and the stupid body scanner on the Normandy are the things I hated the most in my countless playthroughs. One silly child is able to cause sleepless nights and nightmares on my xenophobic and ruthless renegade shepard. This does not fit ...

    Those nightmare scenes aren't even skippable and Shepard is running in slow motion ... Would have been amazing if those scenes were skippable instead of having to do them 1000 times.

  18. #11698
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megaira View Post
    This and the stupid body scanner on the Normandy are the things I hated the most in my countless playthroughs. One silly child is able to cause sleepless nights and nightmares on my xenophobic and ruthless renegade shepard. This does not fit ...

    Those nightmare scenes aren't even skippable and Shepard is running in slow motion ... Would have been amazing if those scenes were skippable instead of having to do them 1000 times.
    Add the "civilian" running animation of female Shep....

  19. #11699
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    mething else is.

    Leviathan was always planned and of course you won't here about a surprise secret character until their role is revealed. Every one thought the Wizard in Wizard of OZ was a floating head until it is revealed that it really is just a man behind a curtain. The Catalyst has never been seen before by anyone in any of the cycles since the first. Why would you expect there to be something about it?
    No Leviathan was not planned.

    http://social.bioware.com/msg.forum/...dex/14844500/1

    "“It's different for every DLC,” Condominas explains. “Some of them were never thought of before ME3 was done, like Leviathan. But with Omega it's a bit different. It's a huge DLC exploring an iconic place and characters we knew before ME3 was released."

    So no Leviathan was retconned in to try to make some sense of their endings, i'll get to the rest when i have minute.

  20. #11700
    Quote Originally Posted by Gravath View Post
    It is, but Yakobo got boosted.
    Heh, give him his moment of glory. ^^

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