1. #20481
    I am Murloc! zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable man View Post
    1. Maybe she wasn't aware of the monastery, that's not exactly common knowledge.
    Both her other daughters besides Morinth was there, I find it unlikely she didn't know about their location.

    As for there being other ardat yakshis there could be something she didn't know, as she had apparently been hunting morinth for 400 years by ME2.

  2. #20482
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Both her other daughters besides Morinth was there, I find it unlikely she didn't know about their location.

    As for there being other ardat yakshis there could be something she didn't know, as she had apparently been hunting morinth for 400 years by ME2.
    Why should she know? The locations of ardat yakshi sanctuaries are secret for obvious reasons: no one wants a break out with help from outside, or someone taking revenge.

    She knew her daughters were taken somewhere but I don't think she mentions ever visiting them, thus she had no way of knowing there is a whole sanctuary with many ardat yakshi.

  3. #20483
    I am Murloc! zealo's Avatar
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    Because she evidently had no trouble locating the monastery in the sequel.

  4. #20484
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Because she evidently had no trouble locating the monastery in the sequel.
    Obviously because she found out later.

  5. #20485
    I am Murloc! May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    1. I believe the term is used for people who have the potential to become serial killers because of their melding killing others. So Samara may not be lying when she is only told that two exist in her children. Perhaps the Asari society is like that, they only ask what they need to know. They are a very secretive race it seems. More than they let on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cable man View Post
    1. Maybe she wasn't aware of the monastery, that's not exactly common knowledge.
    See, the problem is someone should have delivered Samara's children to the monastery. In the monastery, in the logs, we see a mention of another Justicar bringing a few "terrified out of their minds" Asari to the monastery. Even if Justicars don't form any kind of tight community, Samara still should have given her children to someone who would deliver them to the monastery, so, at the very least, she would know that it would be some kind of monastery with, possibly, other Ardat-Yakshi. In Lair of the Shadow Broker, we can see a log of her conversation with her children over the extranet; since the extranet usage in the monastery is restricted, it is very unlikely that this conversation could have even happened without Samara knowing where she calls. Finally, she couldn't have found this monastery so fast if she hadn't known its location: Liara had more intel than anyone in the galaxy, and even so Samara arrived there faster than Shepard.

    These things just don't add up. Samara should definitely have known that there was a monastery of Ardat-Yakshi. My theory is that she hasn't been told much of the monastery, she just delivered her children there and left to search for Morinth, and she might have thought that her children were the only ones to live in the monastery. That, or "Ardat-Yakshi" is a word only for Asari with extreme level of this genetic abnormality, while in the monastery Asari with more mild stages of this mutation were kept as well. As in the codex about Banshee:
    The Reapers create them specifically from asari with active or latent predispositions to becoming Ardat-Yakshi
    So, perhaps, Samara's daughters all had active predisposition, while other Asari only had latent one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    2. Turian battle plans may have gone like this. Deploy the Shroud. Start eliminating the outlying colonies and move towards the homeworld. We also know that the Krogan were like Zapp Brannigan. Where they throw legions upon legions of men at a problem until it's fixed. Eventually when they were defeated there must have been a call to come home and everyone gets the Genophage. Their body would have adapted to it eventually. They would have to continually modify it, but I have a feeling the Krogan physiology would adapt faster than they could modify it. The last part of your quest. If you had heard that your race was cured of a crippling disease. Would you not drop everything and head home. Under the assumption it's airborne, it would stay part of the atmosphere or a cure could be easily developed from the tissue of one who was cured.
    Well, that still leaves a room for, at least, some Krogans not having genophage. And even a few such Krogans, given their fertility rates, would breed billions for over 1,000 years after Krogan Rebellions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cable man View Post
    2. The genophage affects only krogan females, it does nothing to do the males as there are asari children that have been conceived with krogan males, and krogan keep their females on the homeworld and separated from the males. It was easy to deploy the genophage where it hit the hardest.
    Actually, it is not clear if it is this way. I didn't exactly understand Mordin's explanations in Mass Effect 2, but the way I see it, the problem is that, uh, sex between Krogan does not work as it should, leading to corruption in the embryo, which results in a dead child being born. So, essentially, both male and female should be cured of genophage for the kid to be born alive with high probability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nazrark View Post
    3. I am under the assumption that the Rachi War and Krogan Rebellion were the cause of the ban on Artificial Intelligence. The Salarians would have seen the risk potential of them and taken steps to avoid another war after fighting two previous wars. Noveria itself isn't technically in council space, that is what allows them to do research they are unable to elsewhere. I assume development is only on Noveria since they have a battlestation overhead in case of emergencies that would demolish the entire facilities. Spectres are strange, they are given free reign to do whatever they want in order to get the job done. But the council also frowns upon senseless death. So it seems there are things that are morally wrong for some people. Saren was developing an army for himself. You are in charge of your own funding aside from the salary you are given. All weapons and armour are provided for you. So you could be a Spectre with a cruiser and an entire private army. If that is what got the job done for you. As for EDI, she was considered a part of Cerberus. So she is dangerous to the Systems Alliance and the Council since Cerberus is a terrorist organization and the only reason they were given room to operate was because of Shepard. So when Shepard ended that partnership the Council must have pulled the plug on their affiliation with Cerberus. So EDI is an AI, one developed by Cerberus. If she were to reveal herself, she would most likely be shackled again. So posing as a VI would have been the best option for her.
    In Citadel Archives we see some footage of the last AI on the Citadel being eliminated, with them resisting, claiming that the elimination is unlawful. It is possible that at that time the anti-AI laws didn't exist yet, so it must have been some quick drastic event, leading to elimination of all AI fast, before the legal authorization to do so can be issued.

    I used to think the Geth Rebellion was the reason for it. But, according to Tali, it happened earlier. I guess we'll never find out now.
    Quote Originally Posted by haxartus View Post
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  6. #20486
    The Lightbringer Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    So there are 3 lore questions that have been bugging me since day 1.

    1. In Mass Effect 2, Samara says that, to her knowing, only 2 Ardat-Yakshi exist, all being her daughters. In Mass Effect 3, however, we travel to an Ardat-Yakshi monastery having many of them, and, since Samara had no trouble finding the monastery, it is clear that she was aware during Mass Effect 2 events where her daughters were.
    So, is it just a retcon? Or rather misinterpretation? In the Codex, it is said that Banshees are made from Asari with traits of Ardat-Yakshi. So, perhaps, the other Asari kept in the monastery weren't "full" Ardat-Yakshi and just had some partial genes of ones?
    I think it's more a case of just being a plot hole. You're introduced to Ardat-Yakshi in ME2, the first one you meet was willing to consume you. You're told of Rila and Felare but you're not told of the Monastery. If you use the Shadow Broker terminals, you know that Samara contacted Rila and Felare while they were at the Monastery and that it likely wasn't the first conversation that had. One would assume that they'd tell their Mother that they were fitting in as she'd still be concerned about their welfare, especially as Samara shows some form of Remorse after her loyalty mission.

    Cue ME3 and you have the Monastery mission, Samara knows exactly where it is and you know that other Justicars have brought other AY's back to the Monastery. Since all Justicars would need that information, either it would be stored somewhere for them to access or they'd know where to take them. I think it's a matter of ME2 already have a ton of characters to deal with and not wanting to cloud players with too much information. It gets hard to effectively tell a story when you've got 12 companions stories going on, 13 if you include Liara's. Still, it would've been nice if she'd mentioned the Monastery as a place where other AY's were taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    2. We know that genophage was distributed using the Shroud on Tuchanka. However, it was done during an active war with the Krogan, so, apparently, not all Krogan were on Tuchanka at the time - some were out in the galaxy fighting. How come they all got infected by genophage?
    Same question - with the cure: some of the Krogans weren't on Tuchanka at the time, so how did all the Krogans get cured?
    Turians aren't known for their mercy. I suppose any pockets of Krogan resistance outside of Tuchanka would vehemently bombed to ensure no one remained untouched. That said, the Genophage largely affected female Krogan, rather than the males. All were affected but only the Women had to deal with the physical effects. Even during Grunt's recruitment mission, Okeer says he's the perfect Krogan yet he still carries the Genophage. I'd imagine a perfect specimen would've been immune, but Okeer was highly unstable.

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    3. In Mass Effect, during talk with Tali, Shepard mentions that AI development is illegal, and Tali explains that the Geth they were making weren't intended to become self-aware. So, the AI development was made illegal before the Geth were created. However, we haven't been told of any conflict with AI before the Quarian war - so what triggered this law?
    Furthermore, on Noveria we learn that Synthetic Insight is one of only 4 companies authorized by the Council to develop AI. So, such authorization can be granted by the Council, and Spectres, as direct employees of the council, authorized to do whatever they want, should have the right to develop, or to travel with, any AI they want. Why did EDI then have to pose herself as a VI when Normandy was ceased and when she was walking on the Citadel?
    1) It's likely that the galaxy ban on AI came after the Morning War and the Quarian Exodus. I don't remember the date from the Citadel Archives video with the AI, but I'd imagine it happened around the same time. If it happened before, then I guess the Quarians played with fire and got burned, otherwise their actions condemned AI as a whole.

    2) Spectres are given the freedom to act in the interests of the Council, but I imagine if the Spectres started supporting the creation of unregistered AI they'd be cast out and considered rogue agents. Spectres answer only to the Council, they have almost no limits as to how far they can go but I imagine flagrantly defying Council edicts and mandates would still cause some issue.

    3) EDI had to hide herself because it was unheard of that an AI would even have access to Ship functions, never mind that an AI would exist outside of dedicated labs. If EDI had been exposed, the Normandy would likely have been grounded and overhauled simple to remove every possible ship function that an AI could have affected. Remember, she was developed by Cerberus. At this point in the story, everything Shepard brought back with her from her time in Cerberus was regarded with suspicion (If you didn't do Arrival, you're actually imprisoned for working with Cerberus after importing (Despite you possibly being a Spectre, plotholes ahoy)). Engineer Adams trusted EDI once Joker told him that he truster her, but before that he started to try and disable her. Now imagine if, instead of one level-headed engineer, there were a dozen Engineers?
    Last edited by Matt0193; 2015-06-26 at 02:27 PM.
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  7. #20487
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    So there are 3 lore questions that have been bugging me since day 1.

    1. In Mass Effect 2, Samara says that, to her knowing, only 2 Ardat-Yakshi exist, all being her daughters. In Mass Effect 3, however, we travel to an Ardat-Yakshi monastery having many of them, and, since Samara had no trouble finding the monastery, it is clear that she was aware during Mass Effect 2 events where her daughters were.
    So, is it just a retcon? Or rather misinterpretation? In the Codex, it is said that Banshees are made from Asari with traits of Ardat-Yakshi. So, perhaps, the other Asari kept in the monastery weren't "full" Ardat-Yakshi and just had some partial genes of ones?

    2. We know that genophage was distributed using the Shroud on Tuchanka. However, it was done during an active war with the Krogan, so, apparently, not all Krogan were on Tuchanka at the time - some were out in the galaxy fighting. How come they all got infected by genophage?
    Same question - with the cure: some of the Krogans weren't on Tuchanka at the time, so how did all the Krogans get cured?

    3. In Mass Effect, during talk with Tali, Shepard mentions that AI development is illegal, and Tali explains that the Geth they were making weren't intended to become self-aware. So, the AI development was made illegal before the Geth were created. However, we haven't been told of any conflict with AI before the Quarian war - so what triggered this law?
    Furthermore, on Noveria we learn that Synthetic Insight is one of only 4 companies authorized by the Council to develop AI. So, such authorization can be granted by the Council, and Spectres, as direct employees of the council, authorized to do whatever they want, should have the right to develop, or to travel with, any AI they want. Why did EDI then have to pose herself as a VI when Normandy was ceased and when she was walking on the Citadel?
    1. To quote Samara: "As far as I know, only three exist today. Two chose a life of seclusion. The third ran."
    As for the monastery having many of them. Samara didn't know how many exists. She became Justicar because Morinth ran and she was chasing her all this time so it's no wonder she was out of the loop. After all it's a rare genetic disorder. To quote her again: "Killing her has been my focus for 400 years. It's the most important thing in my life and the reason I became a Justicar." - "Now the Asari have a place in the galaxy, and they don't wish this defect to be widely known."
    2. All Krogan females were on Tuchanka. The genophage is female based - it causes miscarriage. The cure comes from females. Males are genophage free. Wrex is genophage free.
    3. You didn't investigate the archives in Citadel DLC it seems. There was the self-aware mech situation on Citadel after which the law was put in force.
    Normandy was commandeered by Earth Military to be re-purposed as Anderson's flag ship - thus no longer Spectre ship. And it was Joker's Idea anyway.
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  8. #20488
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poppincaps View Post
    So, I'm playing through the Mass Effect Trilogy for the first time (played ME2 back when it released but Garrus died so I kinda gave up and didn't play ME3) and I'm wondering which DLC I should get for ME3. I also got all the DLC for ME2 except Arrival, is that worth it?
    Hmm depends, in my opinion they're all worth it. But they each have their own focus:

    Citadel gives you more of an insight into your team, and is a nice psychological story.
    Omega gives you access to Omega and gives you Aria T'loak, who is awesome.
    And finally Leviathan gives you more info on the origins of the Reapers, to me it's the least of the DLC, but still quite an interesting playthrough.

  9. #20489
    The Lightbringer Matt0193's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    2. All Krogan females were on Tuchanka. The genophage is female based - it causes miscarriage. The cure comes from females. Males are genophage free. Wrex is genophage free.
    No, every known Krogan bears the genophage, hell even Grunt bears the genophage and he was created on Korlus. The Genophage affects the nervous system, preventing the fetus from fully developing and resulting in stillborn children. As Mordin required Wrex/Wreav to contribute DNA samples, it further reinforces the fact that Males were affected too in some way.

    From the Genophage wiki: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Genophage

    "The genophage's modus operandi is not to reduce the fertility of krogan females, but rather the probability of viable pregnancies: many krogan die in stillbirth, with most fetuses never even reaching this stage of development. Moreover, every cell in each krogan is infected, to prevent the use of gene therapy to counteract it."

    That is somewhat slightly contradicted by this in the same page, though:

    " Any female krogan who could carry young to term became a prize of war who was viciously fought over."

    The first suggests that no single female was actually sterile, just that they were incredibly unlikely to be able to give birth but the second suggests that any female capable of bearing children could do so indefinitely. Either way, the point still stands everyone was affected, Wrex included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Normandy was commandeered by Earth Military to be re-purposed as Anderson's flag ship - thus no longer Spectre ship. And it was Joker's Idea anyway.
    This is another plothole. If you carried over a save from ME where you accepted Spectre status, the Alliance should never have had the authority to seize the Normandy for retrofits and it should've been piloted to the Citadel upon you being taken in. That presupposes that the Council didn't immediately declare you a rogue agent, which when you get to the Citadel confirms that they didn't. If you accepted your Spectre status, it's considered "upheld" as opposed to "reinstated" should you have turned it down.

    Semantics, but the Alliance commandeering the Normandy could be construed as an act of war against the Council. Again, this presupposes that you didn't give them permission. A Paragon Shep would, she turns herself in and accepts judgement regardless of Spectre status. Renegade Shep argues that what she did was a necessity and should've used her Spectre status, forcing the Council to choose.

    It's just a peeve, it removed the choice from the player and assumed it. In a series based on choices it's just irksome.
    "Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it." - Ayn Rand

  10. #20490
    I am Murloc! May90's Avatar
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    Just finished the game the 1342890573249804532th time. I don't care what people say, but for me the ending cinematics in ME3 (Synthesis) is one of the most emotional experiences of my life. It is night, everyone is sleeping, so I just didn't care and cried with actual tears. Mass Effect 3, Life of David Gale and a speech of a North Korean runaway girl in Dublin are the only 3 things that have made me cry with tears in the last 10 years or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    2. All Krogan females were on Tuchanka. The genophage is female based - it causes miscarriage. The cure comes from females. Males are genophage free. Wrex is genophage free.
    Well, first, in ME2 we get, at least, 2 mentions (one from Grunt, another from description of one of the planets) of Krogan female warlords dying on other planets. If at least one Krogan female warlord survived and hid somewhere out in the galaxy with other Krogans, they could have bred an army there.

    Second, both males and females carry genophage genes. Wrex in ME1 said that, and Okeer in ME2 said that (as well as EDI, when examining the tank on the Normandy, said that she detected genophage cells in Grunt). I do not exactly understand how it all works (Mordin's explanation was too short and biologically a bit controversial), but it is clear that if, at least, one of the Krogans having sex has a genophage, then the chances of successfully born child are slim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    3. You didn't investigate the archives in Citadel DLC it seems. There was the self-aware mech situation on Citadel after which the law was put in force.
    Checking out the archives was what triggered this question. There wasn't any mention of any specific conflict, it was just said that the last AI on Citadel was being eliminated. Here at 5:04:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwK94miS11s
    It is not clear, for example, if those AI were designed before the time the anti-AI laws were introduced and just did something that triggered the introduction of that law, or if something long before that happened and these AI were illegal in the first place.
    Last edited by May90; 2015-06-27 at 10:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by haxartus View Post
    Science has promised us nothing and given us everything, faith has promised us everything and given us nothing.

  11. #20491
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Well, first, in ME2 we get, at least, 2 mentions (one from Grunt, another from description of one of the planets) of Krogan female warlords dying on other planets. If at least one Krogan female warlord survived and hid somewhere out in the galaxy with other Krogans, they could have bred an army there.
    No they couldn't have. They are not Rachni. They don't lay millions of eggs per female. All females were on Tuchanka, cept for some odd and rare female warlords who died in battle anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Second, both males and females carry genophage genes.
    Yes, both carry it, but only females suffer from it. Males just spread it. It's not like females cannot get pregnant 'cause males shoot blanks, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Checking out the archives was what triggered this question. There wasn't any mention of any specific conflict, it was just said that the last AI on Citadel was being eliminated. Here at 5:04:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwK94miS11s
    It is not clear, for example, if those AI were designed before the time the anti-AI laws were introduced and just did something that triggered the introduction of that law, or if something long before that happened and these AI were illegal in the first place.
    That happened just after the Geth incident. The law existed long before by individual races but wasn't enforced by the Council. After geth it was though, hence the incident on Citadel. Note, those mechs are not Geth. They were not supposed to be self aware. They became self-aware and were eliminated.
    And Geth were designed as VI and they were VI for all intents and purposes - it's their feature of hive mind that made them self-aware UNINTENTIONALLY. Efficiency gone wrong.
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  12. #20492
    I am Murloc! May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Note, those mechs are not Geth. They were not supposed to be self aware. They became self-aware and were eliminated.
    Actually, that is not known. This is what the mechs say: "This termination actually is unlawful. Why do you continue when our appeal has not yet been heard?". It is very possible that, before the Geth incident, there were actual legal AI on the Citadel, existing alongside other races, but the incident demonstrated the danger of AI, and the Council quickly issued a ban on AI development and ordered full termination of existing AI. This is why these mechs talk about appeal: since they even had the ability to appeal to the Council, they probably were viewed as a separate race, with full rights.
    Quote Originally Posted by haxartus View Post
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  13. #20493
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    Actually, that is not known. This is what the mechs say: "This termination actually is unlawful. Why do you continue when our appeal has not yet been heard?". It is very possible that, before the Geth incident, there were actual legal AI on the Citadel, existing alongside other races, but the incident demonstrated the danger of AI, and the Council quickly issued a ban on AI development and ordered full termination of existing AI. This is why these mechs talk about appeal: since they even had the ability to appeal to the Council, they probably were viewed as a separate race, with full rights.
    No. Mechs were appealing to sentience. "We are sentient therefore we are living beings and you cannot kill us it's against the law." The anti-AI law was not enforced before Geth exactly because of pro-AI advocates who claimed that artificial intelligence is a form of life and therefore should enjoy all the rights. The Geth incident was a good example of what might happen - so the anti-AI law was enforced. But Geth were not the first AI gone self-aware and rogue in the history of the cycle. We have little lore data on that because it is irrelevant to the game's story - it was long before the humans even went to space.
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  14. #20494
    I am Murloc! May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    No. Mechs were appealing to sentience. "We are sentient therefore we are living beings and you cannot kill us it's against the law."
    How do you know? This piece of holo is all we have in the game about that event. They could mean anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by haxartus View Post
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  15. #20495
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    How do you know? This piece of holo is all we have in the game about that event. They could mean anything.
    Commons sense. There are two options:
    A. Plot hole
    B. What I said.

    As there's no additional data I see no reason to go with point A. The holo can be explained using current lore. Absence of more lore doesn't mean it's a plot hole. Especially considering how irrelevant this all is to the game.
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  16. #20496
    I am Murloc! May90's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elim Garak View Post
    Commons sense. There are two options:
    A. Plot hole
    B. What I said.

    As there's no additional data I see no reason to go with point A. The holo can be explained using current lore. Absence of more lore doesn't mean it's a plot hole. Especially considering how irrelevant this all is to the game.
    I am completely lost here...
    Quote Originally Posted by haxartus View Post
    Science has promised us nothing and given us everything, faith has promised us everything and given us nothing.

  17. #20497
    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    I am completely lost here...
    If you want to see this little meaningless blank space as a plot hole - knock yourself out. But don't pretend that you have data supporting that. Lore is supporting the contrary.
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  18. #20498
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by May90 View Post
    1. In Mass Effect 2, Samara says that, to her knowing, only 2 Ardat-Yakshi exist, all being her daughters. In Mass Effect 3, however, we travel to an Ardat-Yakshi monastery having many of them, and, since Samara had no trouble finding the monastery, it is clear that she was aware during Mass Effect 2 events where her daughters were.
    Because she found out about it the same way Shepard did? Shepard was told to investigate and help a commando team by Asarai high command. Samara easily could have been given the same message or have investigated on her own after putting the pieces together about the commando's and their location.

    Or simply that the code of her order prevents her from mentioning other ones besides her daughters. Or she knew that her daughters were living a life of seclusion but not where or who with.
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