1. #1

    Marauder/Sentinel 1.1.2 changes are DPS LOSS not increase

    The old system: (you can see a small test sample and a continuation of this discussion here)
    The current system tooltips do not match up with actual in game math. The currrent system is doing the following:
    Bleedout is currently giving us 30% damage to all bleed effects, not crit chance.
    Deep Wound is unconfirmed. Without watching and counting 1000 ticks (or combat log) we can only assume it is affecting Rupture's direct damage correctly.
    Hemorrhage is adding 4% instead of 6% additional damage to bleed damage. The first point provides ~2% increase, each additional point is ~1%.

    New system proposed:
    Hemorrhage: 15% bleed damage increase
    Bleedout: 30% critical multiplier increase

    Using the following stats as an example:
    131 unmodified unskilled Rupture/Deadly Saber dot
    25% crit chance
    70% crit multiplier

    Old System
    In the old system with Bleedout, Hemorrhage:
    131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177 normal dot
    131 * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.7 = 301 critical dot

    To explain those numbers we have the 131 base dot (no skills). We multiply that number times 1.3 for the 30% increase we WERE receiving from Bleedout. We then multiply times 1.04 for the 4% increase we WERE receiving from Hemorrhage. In the 2nd row, we multiply 1.7 for the critical multiplier.

    Let's normalize that across 1000 dots. With a 25% crit chance that is 750 normal dots and 250 critical dots.
    177 * 750 = 132,750 normal dot damage
    301 * 250 = 75,250 critical damage
    Grand total = 208,000

    New System
    In the new system with Bleedout, Hemorrhage:
    131 * 1.15 = 150.65 normal dot
    131 * 1.15 * 2 = 301 critical dot

    131 is still our base unskilled dot. The 1.15 is the new Hemorrhage (3 points at 5% for each point = 15%). The 1.3 is the "corrected" Bleedout critical multiplier number. We are multiplying times 2 because 70% is the base critical multiplier and Bleedout provides an additional 30% critical multiplier. We would assume it is additive. If that is incorrect and Bleedout is multiplicative then critical dot is 332 (and the final number still show new system a dps loss). We don't think Bleedout is multiplicative though.

    So lets normalize the new system across 1000 dots. Same as above, 25% base crit chance gives us 750 normal dots and 250 critical dots.
    151 * 750 = 114,000
    301 * 250 = 75,250
    Grand total = 189,250

    What about Juyo form and Juyo Mastery? The new system does value critical chance more than the old system, but you would still need over 98% crit chance for the new system to overtake the old system.

    TL;DR
    The old system and new system critical dot amounts are exactly the same. All that has changed is non-crit dots will be less than the old system's non-crit dots.

    Unless there is something we are missing, this is a damage decrease.
    SithWarrior.com - #1 TOR class and game mechanics forums
    Theorycrafting all Empire and Republic classes

  2. #2
    Your calculation was wrong. You multiplied the crit damage multiplier for the old system but did not do it for the new system for normal dots. Look on the original patch thread.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Pulledtea View Post
    Your calculation was wrong. You multiplied the crit damage multiplier for the old system but did not do it for the new system for normal dots. Look on the original patch thread.
    No it's correct. We were getting 4% from Hemorrhage (dont read the tooltips, the actual effect was an additional 4% damage increase when you had 3 points). We were also getting 30% from Bleedout (again don't look at the tooltips) we were actually getting 30% damage increase (not critical multiplier) to Rupture and Deadly Saber (and of course the Republic counterparts).

    New system, we only get 15% from the new Hemorrhage that provides 5% per point.

    15% vs 34%

    The new system has more crit multiplier but it's being multiplied versus a lower base number. THIS is exactly why it is a dps LOSS.
    SithWarrior.com - #1 TOR class and game mechanics forums
    Theorycrafting all Empire and Republic classes

  4. #4
    TL;DR

    You so dumb, they are not gonna sentinels after saying that they know sentinels need a buff.
    Bioware has made pretty good sense with the patching thus far, and i don't see why they would backtrack at all.

    Respect your fellow forum users. Do not call each other names. - Cula
    Last edited by Culadin; 2012-02-02 at 03:51 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullet1519 View Post
    TL;DR

    You so dumb, they are not gonna sentinels after saying that they know sentinels need a buff.
    Bioware has made pretty good sense with the patching thus far, and i don't see why they would backtrack at all.
    Thank you for your contribution.
    SithWarrior.com - #1 TOR class and game mechanics forums
    Theorycrafting all Empire and Republic classes

  6. #6

  7. #7
    Is the multiplier crit added together before multiplying it? cuz that would change a bit. 131*1.3*1.74 isnt the same as 131*1.3*1.04*1.7

  8. #8
    In all honesty, The numbers don't lie, and I can see exactly what you mean by a DPS decrease. But it seems to me like there is a variable missing of some sort. As you said, something we may have missed. I also feel as though there is a point at which the new system becomes better than the old. As if one of the stats diminishes over time so to speak.

    Also, you failed to calculate in % crit chance from the first tier of rage. Which does affect both rupture and deadly saber. Nor did you calculate the %crit we get from juyo form.

    I went ahead and did the math for my character. I'm in mostly Rakata, So I felt like I should test my own predictions.
    Old System:
    131 * 1.3 * 1.04 = 177 normal dot (This is base damage with no skills, therefore it stays the same, if I understand your math correctly)
    131 * 1.3 * 1.04 * 1.664 = 294.71 critical dot

    Over 1000: With 50.16% crit chance instead of 25% (15% from stacked juyo, 6% from rage tree)
    177 * 498 = 88,146 normal dot damage
    301 * 502 = 151,102 critical damage (292 came from subtracting 291.6 from 1000 and then rounding up. 708 is the different between the two)
    Grand total = 239,248


    Now with the NEW system:
    131 * 1.15 = 150.65 normal dot (Again, base.)
    131 * 1.15 * 1.994 = 300.4 critical dot

    over 1000:
    151 * 498 = 75,198
    301 * 502 = 151,102
    Grand total: 226300

    So you are indeed correct, it is a DPS loss. At least at this point in the gearing cycle. My numbers are of a smaller disparity than yours because of the crit chance levels, which will most likely only go up as the game progresses, unless of course level caps are extended. This doesn't even include berserk. The math is too complicated for me to do, but basically this is what I came up with.

    Again, I'm unsure whether or not I took that base value you gave as too literal. I'd have to actually go into the game and play to get exact numbers for myself. This is just what I developed for my current gear without going into combat and getting an average tick.

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