1. #10021
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    The question ends up if you think it would be better under Romney -- which when it comes to military matters it seems unlikely at best.
    It's an issue with Obama because he rabidly attacked Bush and the republicans and ended up doing the same or worse.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  2. #10022
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    At best it's worthless jobs, at worst it's just manipulation of the numbers by this corrupt administration.

    It's probably both.
    How would the Obama administration be manipulating these numbers, and could you prove it? Also, what's your basis for the charge that they would manipulate the numbers in the first place. I know of some of the shady things the administration is doing, but I'm interested in seeing what your evidence for this notion is.

    Also, you didn't really answer my original question. You said that this bump occurs every year around the holidays. I think that's a reasonable assumption, but as Diurdi has said, this bump is larger than previous bumps since it takes into consideration the data from previous years. Are you rescinding that statement with the charge that the jobs are worthless?

  3. #10023
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    It's an issue with Obama because he rabidly attacked Bush and the republicans and ended up doing the same or worse.
    Oh trust me, Obama's a big flop in my book when it comes to his decisions around the military. The only things I give him for are that he isn't extending the wars and keeping to the timetables for withdrawl, and that he has moved to actions that don't put our troops in harm's way (drones, etc.).

    That all being said, I'd prefer much less romping around the globe period.

    There's not a lot of difference at the end of the day between the current Dems and the GOP on military matters. However Romney does seem to be itching for even more conflicts and an even bigger military. I'd rather the status quo over that, although it is certainly not what I'd pick if I had more than a binary choice.

  4. #10024
    It's unbelieve Mitt Just said at a press conference that the number is wrong. Claiming the real number is around ten percent because "People stopped looking for work. While Obama camp is claiming a victory and a sign that things are moving in the right direction. Two separate very different views.

  5. #10025
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    How would the Obama administration be manipulating these numbers, and could you prove it? Also, what's your basis for the charge that they would manipulate the numbers in the first place. I know of some of the shady things the administration is doing, but I'm interested in seeing what your evidence for this notion is.

    Also, you didn't really answer my original question. You said that this bump occurs every year around the holidays. I think that's a reasonable assumption, but as Diurdi has said, this bump is larger than previous bumps since it takes into consideration the data from previous years. Are you rescinding that statement with the charge that the jobs are worthless?
    I don't know how unemployment numbers are generated and neither do you and neither does Diurdi.

    I'll just wait and see what people that actually do have to say about it.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  6. #10026
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    I like Obama... Hope he win the coming election.. Romney reminds me of the typical douche that thinks he is better than everyone else...
    Go Obama =)
    "As Dark as a Ravens flight, Cold as Winters night"

  7. #10027
    Old God Grizzly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    I don't know how unemployment numbers are generated and neither do you and neither does Diurdi.

    I'll just wait and see what people that actually do have to say about it.
    Which is why I don't make claims about stuff I don't know anything about, and why I question your assertion that Obama's administration is manipulating the numbers. If you can provide past examples, I'll be more than willing to believe you.

  8. #10028
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Oh trust me, Obama's a big flop in my book when it comes to his decisions around the military. The only things I give him for are that he isn't extending the wars and keeping to the timetables for withdrawl, and that he has moved to actions that don't put our troops in harm's way (drones, etc.).

    That all being said, I'd prefer much less romping around the globe period.

    There's not a lot of difference at the end of the day between the current Dems and the GOP on military matters. However Romney does seem to be itching for even more conflicts and an even bigger military. I'd rather the status quo over that, although it is certainly not what I'd pick if I had more than a binary choice.
    I've seen nothing neocon about Romney.

    I prefer the Ron Paul ideas regarding our military footprint, with a little bit of Reagan mixed in to keep them honest.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  9. #10029
    Quote Originally Posted by FusedMass View Post
    It's unbelieve Mitt Just said at a press conference that the number is wrong. Claiming the real number is around ten percent because "People stopped looking for work. While Obama camp is claiming a victory and a sign that things are moving in the right direction. Two separate very different views.
    As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    Lots of people HAVE given up looking for work and more accurate measurements of the unemployment rate would show it higher. But at the same time things ARE moving in the right direction.

    Just as an aside, Canada created 52,000 jobs in September. Canada is 1/10th the size of the US, so it would be the same as the US creating about 520,000 jobs. Those are the numbers that the US SHOULD be putting up for a full recovery. Instead, the US gets these anemic ~150K numbers every month. It's still progress, but the slowness of the recovery just shows how weak the underlying fundamentals of the US economy really are, and how big picture things need to change in the long run.

  10. #10030
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunmonkey90 View Post
    I like Obama... Hope he win the coming election.. Romney reminds me of the typical douche that thinks he is better than everyone else...
    Go Obama =)
    I support this message.

  11. #10031
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FusedMass View Post
    Claiming the real number is around ten percent because "People stopped looking for work. While Obama camp is claiming a victory and a sign that things are moving in the right direction. Two separate very different views.
    One of the things that gets on my nerves when unemployment is discussed is that people mix up the definitions all the time.

    "Unemployment" as represented by the numbers reported has a very specific meaning that includes a specific group of people.

    "Underemployed" is a different group.

    Then there's the "hidden" unemployed, or whatever you want to call them -- people who stopped looking for work and stopped collecting unemployment.

    But some of those people are stay at home parents. Others may be taking care of a sick relative. Not everyone drops out of the workforce because of "bad economy juju."

    So when person A talks about a number that is just Unemployment and person B talks about Unemployment + Underemployment -- then you get a muddled argument that most people can't makes heads or tails out of.

  12. #10032
    Quote Originally Posted by Grokan View Post
    Which is why I don't make claims about stuff I don't know anything about, and why I question your assertion that Obama's administration is manipulating the numbers. If you can provide past examples, I'll be more than willing to believe you.
    timing and desperation, desperation and timing.

    This is a timid teleprompter reading ineffectual leader without any plan or even a clue.

    He had access to the job numbers before the debate, if they were so solid he would have been in his "we've turned the corner, my policies ARE working mode". He wasn't, he was clueless and rudderless.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  13. #10033
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    I've seen nothing neocon about Romney.
    He wants to increase the military budget and he has thrown out some pretty strong words regarding Iran and Russia. Now, much like just about everything else, what he would ACTUALLY do in office is a big unknown, but I don't think he'd keep the military status quo.

    I prefer the Ron Paul ideas regarding our military footprint, with a little bit of Reagan mixed in to keep them honest.
    I certainly lean this way, but I think there's a middle ground that is appropriate.

    Plus the reality is that the shrinking of the military would have to be done gradually or you'd give a nasty shock to an economy that can't absorb it.

  14. #10034
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    He wants to increase the military budget and he has thrown out some pretty strong words regarding Iran and Russia. Now, much like just about everything else, what he would ACTUALLY do in office is a big unknown, but I don't think he'd keep the military status quo.

    I certainly lean this way, but I think there's a middle ground that is appropriate.

    Plus the reality is that the shrinking of the military would have to be done gradually or you'd give a nasty shock to an economy that can't absorb it.
    I still don't see anything neocon about Romeny, but that seems to usually be decided by the cabinet appointments.

    I'd rather us shrink our base footprint around the world, and stick to a cruise missiles from a far method. It's not always effective, I know... but it's certainly cheaper.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  15. #10035
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    I still don't see anything neocon about Romeny
    I'm not sure what you mean by this. I tend to ignore labels like this because they don't have universally agreed upon definitions.

    Are you denying he hasn't stated he wants to increase the military budget?

  16. #10036
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean by this. I tend to ignore labels like this because they don't have universally agreed upon definitions.

    Are you denying he hasn't stated he wants to increase the military budget?
    Well, without a doubt you could detect some neocon in Bush.

    I just don't see Romney the same way.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  17. #10037
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    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    Well, without a doubt you could detect some neocon in Bush.

    I just don't see Romney the same way.
    Trust me Romney is a Zionist, he puts Israel on a pedestal, just like all of our politicians.

  18. #10038
    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    As usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

    Lots of people HAVE given up looking for work and more accurate measurements of the unemployment rate would show it higher. But at the same time things ARE moving in the right direction.

    Just as an aside, Canada created 52,000 jobs in September. Canada is 1/10th the size of the US, so it would be the same as the US creating about 520,000 jobs. Those are the numbers that the US SHOULD be putting up for a full recovery. Instead, the US gets these anemic ~150K numbers every month. It's still progress, but the slowness of the recovery just shows how weak the underlying fundamentals of the US economy really are, and how big picture things need to change in the long run.
    Not really a fair example. We Canadian's avoided much of the nonsense you guys went through when it came to the economy collapse because you know, we actually had banking regulations.

    That's the other thing that always annoys me when I hear Republican's saying "The Economy is weak! Why hasn't Obama fixed it yet!" I'm sorry, you are expecting miracles if you think ANYONE could fix a collapse comparable to the great depression not only in 4 years but with that small of a stimulus package. That package was designed to stop the 750k jobs that were being lost a month and make sure the Auto industry didn't completely collapse in on itself. He accomplished that. Now people who listen to Rommney actually are saying "We need more of the same policies that caused the collapse in the first place!" I'm sorry, are you insane?

  19. #10039
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    I don't know how unemployment numbers are generated and neither do you and neither does Diurdi.

    I'll just wait and see what people that actually do have to say about it.
    Do you know if there is a difference between the way the 8% was generated and the new 7.8%?

  20. #10040
    Quote Originally Posted by Juno86 View Post
    Not really a fair example. We Canadian's avoided much of the nonsense you guys went through when it came to the economy collapse because you know, we actually had banking regulations.

    That's the other thing that always annoys me when I hear Republican's saying "The Economy is weak! Why hasn't Obama fixed it yet!" I'm sorry, you are expecting miracles if you think ANYONE could fix a collapse comparable to the great depression not only in 4 years but with that small of a stimulus package. That package was designed to stop the 750k jobs that were being lost a month and make sure the Auto industry didn't completely collapse in on itself. He accomplished that. Now people who listen to Rommney actually are saying "We need more of the same policies that caused the collapse in the first place!" I'm sorry, are you insane?
    Actually, I am Canadian too. Banking regulations did help Canada, but what also really helped was the Liberal government fixing the budget problems in the 1990's and carrying that forward through different economic hits like the tech bust, 9/11, SARS. But what also kept Canada up is that we are a resource-based economy and there is still demand for that, and so we keep our jobs, our tax revenues keep coming in, and our hosuing market hasn't collapsed.

    But still, the US should be producing at least twice as many jobs in a recovery. They aren't because of the policies and the corporate takeover of gov't really starting since Reagan. There are fundamental things in their economy that will have to be changed or else the next recovery will be even slower.

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