1. #10081
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    But on the other hand, it's a cheap source of energy. Getting off it means a reduction in the standard of living.
    Is it cheap? Consider the costs of demolishing mountains, transporting massive amounts of coal, dealing with environmental impacts if any accidents happen at any point along those lines. Coal is not cheap. The costs are just incredibly spread out so that it looks cheap. The costs of other forms of power are focused and high at specific points(such as plant construction).

    It's like comparing a lake with an inch of water in as opposed to a bath-tub filled to the brim.

    Getting off coal would only mean a reduction in the standard of living in the short term if we abruptly ended all coal-based power-generation and related activities. Getting off coal would mean an increase in the standard of living in the long term because the replacement technologies require a higher level of expertise, which means an increased demand for educated professionals and higher-quality materials and thus a higher value on education. There is no place wherein well-educated, well-paid individuals see a decrease in their standard of living from that. Go anywhere with an abundance of highly paid, highly-educated individuals and you will see nothing less than a high standard of living.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
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  2. #10082
    The Insane Catta's Avatar
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    I dont think i've ever seen a proper piece of coal...
    All we got here is charcoal because fuck natural resources in the underground...

  3. #10083
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    But on the other hand, it's a cheap source of energy. Getting off it means a reduction in the standard of living.
    and we have coal coming out the ass. seriously, we have a LOT of coal

  4. #10084
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    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    and we have coal coming out the ass. seriously, we have a LOT of coal
    But doesnt many of your cities have serious problems with smog?

  5. #10085
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    But doesnt many of your cities have serious problems with smog?
    Indeed, we do not need to increase our burning of fossil fuels.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  6. #10086
    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    But doesnt many of your cities have serious problems with smog?
    dont think for a minute that i am advocating coal. we use it because it's cheap and abundant. and we have none of the dependency issues with unreliable sources with coal. none of our sources of power are really awesome imo, id have to go with nuclear as the current best choice

  7. #10087
    Coal is incredibly dirty. The idea of "clean coal" is an oxymoron. It could be clean in comparison, but that's like saying you took a shit that didn't smell bad.

  8. #10088
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Is it cheap? Consider the costs of demolishing mountains, transporting massive amounts of coal, dealing with environmental impacts if any accidents happen at any point along those lines. Coal is not cheap. The costs are just incredibly spread out so that it looks cheap. The costs of other forms of power are focused and high at specific points(such as plant construction).
    You do realize that all those "spread out costs" are included in the final product which is the cost of producing electricity in coal plants?

    Quote Originally Posted by smrund
    Getting off coal would mean an increase in the standard of living in the long term because the replacement technologies require a higher level of expertise, which means an increased demand for educated professionals and higher-quality materials and thus a higher value on education. There is no place wherein well-educated, well-paid individuals see a decrease in their standard of living from that. Go anywhere with an abundance of highly paid, highly-educated individuals and you will see nothing less than a high standard of living.
    This is the most retarded argument for getting off coal I've ever heard. The only way getting off coal increases our standard of living in the long run is when you factor in potential living standard decreases due to environmental issues.

    You don't actually increase the standard of living by making things harder than they need to be.

    Two total logic fails by you smrund.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2012-10-05 at 10:45 PM.

  9. #10089
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Two total brain farts by you smrund.
    This is the most retarded argument for getting off coal I've ever heard.
    What happened to you? Is this how you talk to everyone who disagrees with you?

    If you think coal is cheap even including environmental devastation and death I'd love to see your numbers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  10. #10090
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    What happened to you? Is this how you talk to everyone who disagrees with you?
    If you think coal is cheap even including environmental devastation and death I'd love to see your numbers.
    You didn't read what I said. I specifically said that environmental issues are the only reason for getting off coal. Getting off coal just because it's easy and alternative energy is "hard", thus requiring society to educate more highly skilled people to perform tasks that lower skilled people could previously do, is insane.

  11. #10091
    In a vacuum maybe, but you haven't exactly demonstrated that you're willing to discuss the issue civilly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  12. #10092
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    You do realize that all those "spread out costs" are included in the final product which is the cost of producing electricity in coal plants?

    Epic fail Smrund.
    No, they are not. That's the whole reason they are "spread out". L2Read.

    Besides, even at the end of the day, coal is still more expensive than other forms of power. In fact this EXACT document has been linked in this discussion before makes this whole argument pointless and stupid.

    http://nuclearfissionary.com/2010/04...ind-and-solar/
    In case you don't like that document as it could be biased.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of...city_by_source

    And of course, as we develop more of an advanced technology, it becomes cheaper and cheaper to do. So resistance to the production of new technologies only maintains their high cost. It's ridiculous to suggest that we do not develop new and advanced technologies simply because the old ways are "cheaper", they are unsustainable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  13. #10093
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    In a vacuum maybe, but you haven't exactly demonstrated that you're willing to discuss the issue civilly.
    If an argument is completely retarded, then it's completely retarded.

    It's like saying we should switch this forum into only lines of code, because that way we would all have to educate ourselves in coding, and it would be great because places with higher level of education are usually prosperous places.

  14. #10094
    Not to mention moving towards other sources of energy will mean an expansion in high end manufacturing which is going to be pretty coveted.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-05 at 10:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    If an argument is completely retarded, then it's completely retarded.

    It's like saying we should switch this forum into only lines of code, because that way we would all have to educate ourselves in coding, and it would be great because places with higher level of education are usually prosperous places.
    That's not what he said at all but sure ok continue being unjustifiably smug and insulting. You have a knack for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  15. #10095
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    No, they are not. That's the whole reason they are "spread out". L2Read.
    Don't you realize that these costs are baked in the price for gods sake? The only things that aren't included are external effects that are paid by society like pollution (unless a particular government puts an extra tax on the use of coal).



    Quote Originally Posted by smrund
    Besides, even at the end of the day, coal is still more expensive than other forms of power. In fact this EXACT document has been linked in this discussion before makes this whole argument pointless and stupid.

    http://nuclearfissionary.com/2010/04...ind-and-solar/
    In case you don't like that document as it could be biased.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of...city_by_source

    And of course, as we develop more of an advanced technology, it becomes cheaper and cheaper to do. So resistance to the production of new technologies only maintains their high cost. It's ridiculous to suggest that we do not develop new and advanced technologies simply because the old ways are "cheaper", they are unsustainable.


    Coal usually recieves no tax breaks, other sources often do, which further skews the real cost in many tables.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2012-10-05 at 11:02 PM.

  16. #10096
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Not to mention moving towards other sources of energy will mean an expansion in high end manufacturing which is going to be pretty coveted.
    i can agree with this. a major reason for US's past success was getting out in front in industries and technology. would be nice if we continued that trend, instead of trying to make the country function like a quarter-to-quarter corporation

  17. #10097
    Don't you realize that these costs are baked in the price for gods sake? The only things that aren't included are external effects that are paid by society like pollution (unless a particular government puts an extra tax on the use of coal).
    All the costs are baked in except for the ones that aren't! Brilliant!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  18. #10098
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    All the costs are baked in except for the ones that aren't! Brilliant!
    Sigh, that's not what he was even talking about. He mentioned environmental impacts, and much of it is paid by the supply chain and thus included in the price. Like clean-up after shutting down a coal mine or similar. And transportation and mining most definitely is included in the price of coal, as well as the price of the equipment they use, the cost of building coal plants, of labourers in all phases of the electricity production and so on. I'm just amazed how you guys can't grasp these basic concepts.

  19. #10099
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Sigh, that's not what he was even talking about. He mentioned environmental impacts, and much of it is paid by the supply chain and thus included in the price. Like clean-up after shutting down a coal mine or similar. And transportation and mining most definitely is included in the price of coal, as well as the price of the equipment they use, the cost of building coal plants, of labourers in all phases of the electricity production and so on. I'm just amazed how you guys can't grasp these basic concepts.
    You're right, you probably shouldn't bother.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nixx View Post
    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fyre View Post
    Internet lives in the sky, don't need no cables for that.
    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  20. #10100
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    You're right, you probably shouldn't bother.
    It's a bit like debating creationists: Don't do it.

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