1. #11441
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    Right now, the scewed US system produces only one of those, and that's healthcare innovation for the world. Roughly 80% of all biotech R&D spending in the world happens in the US. The rest of the world is getting a free ride on the back of the american patient's wallet.
    The thing is, that research is pretty profitable. The cost of drugs and equipment developed here isn't exactly low. Sure, we spend a lot on biotech in the United States, but we get a fantastic return on our money not just domestically, but internationally. This is one of the things our government is getting right in terms of spending, as it's resulted in us attracting tons of researchers and having very strong private sector research as well.

  2. #11442
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    The thing is, that research is pretty profitable. The cost of drugs and equipment developed here isn't exactly low. Sure, we spend a lot on biotech in the United States, but we get a fantastic return on our money not just domestically, but internationally. This is one of the things our government is getting right in terms of spending, as it's resulted in us attracting tons of researchers and having very strong private sector research as well.
    My point was that US healthcare spending/costs are much higher because pharmaceuticals generate most of their profits there. They sell the drugs to Europeans and other areas at lower prices because once you develop a good drug there are almost no costs to producing more of that drug. But if they couldn't get the massive profits from Americans, there would be much less R&D.

    I'm not saying the pharma industry is good or bad, I'm saying that one of the factors contributing to the huge difference in healthcare costs in Europe and US is this. We get higher quality treatment (in the form of more available drugs) because Americans pay more.

  3. #11443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    My point was that US healthcare spending/costs are much higher because pharmaceuticals generate most of their profits there. They sell the drugs to Europeans and other areas at lower prices because once you develop a good drug there are almost no costs to producing more of that drug. But if they couldn't get the massive profits from Americans, there would be much less R&D.

    I'm not saying the pharma industry is good or bad, I'm saying that one of the factors contributing to the huge difference in healthcare costs in Europe and US is this. We get higher quality treatment (in the form of more available drugs) because Americans pay more.
    And your risk pool is divided by all your citizens.

  4. #11444
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    And your risk pool is divided by all your citizens.
    That's a completely separate issue. And it's also a very simplistic way of looking at it, because you also suffer from higher moral hazard.

  5. #11445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    That's a completely separate issue. And it's also a very simplistic way of looking at it, because you also suffer from higher moral hazard.
    Healthcare costs in Europe are cheaper than in the US because of the reality that younger people will have less check-ups, higher chance of preventative healthcare, and not use the service, yet still will have to pay the tax that comes with it. The vast majority of healthcare costs in the US come from the last three months of a patients' life. A pretty shitty ROI. We are too liberal in the US in terms of giving families and the elderly choices in the twilight of their lives, especially when it is all paid by medicare and medicaid.

  6. #11446
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    The vast majority of healthcare costs in the US come from the last three months of a patients' life. A pretty shitty ROI. We are too liberal in the US in terms of giving families and the elderly choices in the twilight of their lives, especially when it is all paid by medicare and medicaid.
    I could not agree more, and I'm glad to see someone other than me making this point.

  7. #11447
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    I could not agree more, and I'm glad to see someone other than me making this point.
    it is a logical point... but the implied solutions are pretty cold dont you think?

  8. #11448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    Healthcare costs in Europe are cheaper than in the US because of the reality that younger people will have less check-ups, higher chance of preventative healthcare, and not use the service, yet still will have to pay the tax that comes with it. The vast majority of healthcare costs in the US come from the last three months of a patients' life. A pretty shitty ROI. We are too liberal in the US in terms of giving families and the elderly choices in the twilight of their lives, especially when it is all paid by medicare and medicaid.
    Need a scooter? That's fine. The taxpayers will pay for it!

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-26 at 09:24 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    it is a logical point... but the implied solutions are pretty cold dont you think?
    There's quite a difference between giving grandma her morphine so her death isn't as unpleasant, and giving grandpa a penis pump, all paid for by Medicare.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  9. #11449
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    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    it is a logical point... but the implied solutions are pretty cold dont you think?
    No colder than mandating preventative healthcare measures in your 30's and 40's as to decrease your chances of having a catastrophic ailment later on in life, which will in turn lower this final cost.

    Everyone dies, and if they will use funds from the government to pay for them (the vast majority of Americans), I think there needs to be some kind of conversation.

  10. #11450
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    We are too liberal in the US in terms of giving families and the elderly choices in the twilight of their lives, especially when it is all paid by medicare and medicaid.
    You mean older people should not recieve super expensive healthcare with low chances to improve their life in form of medicare? I would agree. Public healthcare money should be primarily spent on people who can't afford basic healthcare.

  11. #11451
    Quote Originally Posted by smelltheglove View Post
    it is a logical point... but the implied solutions are pretty cold dont you think?
    Well, yes, but that's what fiscal decisions are. People like to gloss over them, but the reality is that many necessary budget cuts will result in some quantifiable number of deaths.

  12. #11452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    You mean older people should not recieve super expensive healthcare with low chances to improve their life in form of medicare? I would agree. Public healthcare money should be primarily spent on people who can't afford basic healthcare.
    But not those that choose to not buy insurance. You choose to not buy insurance (when you could have afforded it) you deserve to go bankrupt with the medical bills.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  13. #11453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    You mean older people should not recieve super expensive healthcare with low chances to improve their life in form of medicare? I would agree. Public healthcare money should be primarily spent on people who can't afford basic healthcare.
    Yes, means test the shit out of medicare. Make sure the wealthy are not attributing the vast majority of their medical costs to medicare. Medicare should also rigorously push preventative healthcare instead of end of life care.

  14. #11454
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Well, yes, but that's what fiscal decisions are. People like to gloss over them, but the reality is that many necessary budget cuts will result in some quantifiable number of deaths.
    yeah. i know the conversation must at some point be had, im just not looking forward to it. the amount of rhetoric involved will be astronomical, and some will steer it into some truly nasty territory

  15. #11455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dakia View Post
    The FDA considering self diagnosis kiosks for prescriptions that can literally kill you if you don't properly understand drug interactions.
    Bzzzzt. Not quite. The FDA is considering making some medication OTC (like they did with some allergy medications) and the kiosks would dispense those. They are not (at least not according to what I read about it) going to have self diagnosis for prescriptions.

    And Aspirin can kill you if you don't understand drug interactions, so let's not get too hysterical...

  16. #11456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    In Finland unless your life depends on it you're not going to get the surgery in any reasonable (under 1 year) time. They're also (obviously) much more reluctant to give you any service at all compared to private healthcare services here.

    How is it that public healthcare in Finland has much much lower quality than private healthcare here? How is it that all the experienced and good doctors work in the private sector and all the beginners and less skilled doctors work in the public sector (apart from the administration ofcourse)? How is it that there are massive queues for public care but very short ones for private? And Finnish private care isn't *that* expensive. It's cheaper than care in the US.

    The fact is that public healthcare is best designed to take care of people who are too poor to afford basic healthcare themselves. Those who can afford to pay for it themselves should do so. Capitalism in the healthcare industry is absolutely vital to keep costs down, cut unnecessary overhead and to see good progress in healthcare innovation. Right now, the scewed US system produces only one of those, and that's healthcare innovation for the world. Roughly 80% of all biotech R&D spending in the world happens in the US. The rest of the world is getting a free ride on the back of the american patient's wallet.
    Because they have to when they finish medicine?

  17. #11457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    And Aspirin can kill you if you don't understand drug interactions, so let's not get too hysterical...
    This one time, I took Benedryl with alcohol....
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybran View Post
    Both of those links don't provide any evidence. They make unsubstantiated statements

  18. #11458
    Quote Originally Posted by Daelak View Post
    Yes, means test the shit out of medicare. Make sure the wealthy are not attributing the vast majority of their medical costs to medicare. Medicare should also rigorously push preventative healthcare instead of end of life care.
    It's not just the wealthy. The middle class (depending on how you define it) can also afford healthcare quite well. The problem is the poor (again, depending a bit how you define poor). With a couple changes you could make healthcare even more affordable to everyone, but there will always be those who just can't afford it, and public healthcare should be aimed at them. But again, there has to be a limit. You can't just blow millions upon millions per patient just because there's a theoretical chance you might survive or it improves your health marginally. You need cost control when it comes to public healthcare.

    The way I've understood the current medicare, it's not very good.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2012-10-26 at 04:27 PM.

  19. #11459
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    Bzzzzt. Not quite. The FDA is considering making some medication OTC (like they did with some allergy medications) and the kiosks would dispense those. They are not (at least not according to what I read about it) going to have self diagnosis for prescriptions.

    And Aspirin can kill you if you don't understand drug interactions, so let's not get too hysterical...
    I've had to manage pharmacists, and while I don't have any real understanding of pharmacy.. I can tell you that 95% of the time the pharmacist does nothing but count pills like a cashier counts change.

    So eliminating the need for that on some medications can only be a savings for people.
    The most successful tyranny is not the one that uses force to assure uniformity but the one that removes the awareness of other possibilities.

  20. #11460
    Quote Originally Posted by oblivionx View Post
    I've had to manage pharmacists, and while I don't have any real understanding of pharmacy.. I can tell you that 95% of the time the pharmacist does nothing but count pills like a cashier counts change.

    So eliminating the need for that on some medications can only be a savings for people.
    Yeah but the other 5% of that time is pretty damn helpful. Like finding out if one medication I'm taking could kill me if I take another one.

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