U.S. Presidential race - Democrat Discussion

[obdigore]

Anyone else getting tired of this? I keep seeing it happen. Poster makes ridiculous claim, is asked for any form of source whatsoever, vanishes, comes back next day to throw a ridiculous claim into the next conversation.

There are a number of posters who do it all the time.

[belfpala]

Anyone else getting tired of this? I keep seeing it happen. Poster makes ridiculous claim, is asked for any form of source whatsoever, vanishes, comes back next day to throw a ridiculous claim into the next conversation.

The last ridiculous claim I saw was made by you.

[semaphore]

Still, if the stats are still consistent, these late-term abortions make up for about 0.17% of all abortions.
<...>
Injecting my personal opinion, abortions shouldn't be allowed past 20 weeks, unless the mother's health is in danger. If you haven't made up your mind after 20 weeks, the decision's been made for you. Just my opinion.

Late term abortions are virtually always carried out due to reasons of health.

I know you aren't saying ban it completely, but the general focus on late term abortions are unwarranted since it essentially does not happen except for cases where all sane people agree it is a good idea.

[Vyxn]

You can't have personhood if you aren't a person. You don't have the rights sentient beings get if you aren't sentient. We shouldn't make laws on uneducated opinion, but upon provable facts.

Liberals will use the excuse that human life doesn't begin at conception to justify murder but when asked when does life begin they either wont tell you or give an opinion not based on facts right after they just said it was just an opinion that life begins at conception and not based on facts

[Chrysia]

The last ridiculous claim I saw was made by you.

What ridiculous claim did I make? I was wrong about late-term abortions being illegal, I'll admit, but that's not a ridiculous claim. It's a wrong one, as I misunderstood the law as it is applied.

A ridiculous claim is "life begins at conception," which is not what was being argued. What was being argued was whether it's a human at that point, and thus deserves human rights.

A ridiculous claim is that Obama "left people to die," when a rescue team was sent.

[Lenonis]

And Yet so far I've been flamed for my not perfect writing skills, Being a conspiracy theorist and using and exaggerated statement to prove a point But still not one has given me or others a reasonable answer that if Obama did give the order to help that the white house claims he did but other that was on the ground in Benghazi claim an order was given to stand down why doesn't he provide the proof their isn't any political reason not to. it doesn't take an investigation.

Why ask for a discussion when you have shown you have no interest in listening? That is why you aren't getting any dialogue other than pointing out your over the top rhetoric and poor writing skills.

When you don't start the conversation out at a reasonable tone, you don't get a conversation. That's kinda how life works.

[Vyxn]

What ridiculous claim did I make? I was wrong about late-term abortions being illegal, I'll admit, but that's not a ridiculous claim. It's a wrong one, as I misunderstood the law as it is applied.

A ridiculous claim is "life begins at conception," which is not what was being argued. What was being argued was whether it's a human at that point, and thus deserves human rights.

A ridiculous claim is that Obama "left people to die," when a rescue team was sent.

Why would that be a Ridiculous claim? as a state senator Obama fought against a bill that would require doctors to give medical attention to babies who survived a late term abortion. So if Obama didn't have a problem with babies who where still alive after a failed abortion to be thrown away to die would you then also agree he would not have a problem to do the same thing to grown men

[Lenonis]

If the issue is abortion, then its fair to say you either support murder or you don't.

What is with you conservatives and your amazing ability to take two entirely different issues and try to claim they are equal?

If you can't see why marriage equality and abortion have vastly different levels of complexity and layers then you really need to get a few more brain cells going and up your critical thinking skills.

The abortion issue has several factors:
1) Which trimester is a fetus considered viable/alive?
2) What about health of the mother issues?
3) What about rape/incest?

The marriage equality basically has two factors:
1) Do you declare marriage equal to all?
2) Do you go down a civil union path giving the legal rights but leave marriage defined as it is today?

And that's not even bringing into the religious factors and separation of church and state arguments.

[Rukentuts]

Liberals will use the excuse that human life doesn't begin at conception to justify murder

It's not an excuse if the claim is valid. You cannot 'murder' what isn't a human being. Choose your words with more tact.

[Grizzly Willy]

Why would that be a Ridiculous claim? as a state senator Obama fought against a bill that would require doctors to give medical attention to babies who survived a late term abortion. So if Obama didn't have a problem with babies who where still alive after a failed abortion to be thrown away to die would you then also agree he would not have a problem to do the same thing to grown men

Leaps in logic aren't exactly the best form of argument. Here, I'll present one that is actually a bit more effective than yours: if life begins at conception, then a women who has a miscarriage is guilty of manslaughter. Therefor, we should be locking up women who have miscarriages.

[Kalyyn]

Liberals will use the excuse that human life doesn't begin at conception to justify murder but when asked when does life begin they either wont tell you or give an opinion not based on facts right after they just said it was just an opinion that life begins at conception and not based on facts

Hello, Republican here! It is a fact that life begins a very long time before conception. Sperm cells are alive, believe it or not. However, they are not people. Some believe that you become a person at conception. I honestly don't see how you can look at something like that and call it a person.

To me, you don't count as a human until your brain becomes operational. And to extend that even further, I don't count humans as people until the point where they become self-aware.

So if it isn't aware of it's own existence, I say do whatever you want with it.

[Vyxn]

It's not an excuse if the claim is valid. You cannot 'murder' what isn't a human being. Choose your words with more tact.

So tell me when does human life begin since you ignored the rest of my post. And i want facts not an opinion since you say it is wrong to use an opinion to say that human life begins at conception

[Kalyyn]

Leaps in logic aren't exactly the best form of argument. Here, I'll present one that is actually a bit more effective than yours: if life begins at conception, than a women who has a miscarriage is guilty of manslaughter. Therefor, we should be locking up women who have miscarriages.

If it were up to me, manslaughter wouldn't even be a crime. Reckless manslaughter, of course (drunk driving, throwing shit at people, running around with a sword while spinning and yelling DEMACIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA) but if a hammer falls out of your belt while you're shingling a roof and kills somebody, that shouldn't really warrant a prison sentence. At the very most, you could possibly pay damages to the victim's family.

[Rukentuts]

So tell me when does human life begin since you ignored the rest of my post. And i want facts not an opinion since you say it is wrong to use an opinion to say that human life begins at conception

Good luck finding facts, considering nobody really knows at this point.

But here's a fact for you, we don't even have brains at conception, all we are is globs of DNA. Guess what? Dead skin contains globs of DNA, so does excrement; doesn't make it human life.

Kalyyn's view is closest to my own. Human life begins when the brain is self aware, and ends at brain death.

[Grizzly Willy]

I think there's problems with manslaughter laws as well. I'm just pointing out how this should play out, given the assertion that life begins at conception, and that manslaughter is a crime.

We could even have reckless fetal manslaughter, where a miscarriage is caused by reckless behavior. Then the reckless manslaughter rule would come into effect.

[Lenonis]

So tell me when does human life begin...And i want facts not an opinion

There really is nothing but opinion on this issue so you are asking for the impossible.

[Vyxn]

Hello, Republican here! It is a fact that life begins a very long time before conception. Sperm cells are alive, believe it or not. However, they are not people. Some believe that you become a person at conception. I honestly don't see how you can look at something like that and call it a person.

To me, you don't count as a human until your brain becomes operational. And to extend that even further, I don't count humans as people until the point where they become self-aware.

So if it isn't aware of it's own existence, I say do whatever you want with it.

So explain when does that happen when is it that a person is self aware. is a person in a coma self aware should they be allowed to be killed? or a person in a veggative state are they self aware? would you then also agree that some fetus develop faster then maybe others so they might become self aware sooner then others so how could you base it on time would you then need to run a self awareness test before every abortion to make sure you are not committing murder

[Rukentuts]

or a person in a veggative state are they self aware?

Depends if their brain is goo or not. If they were say...deprived of oxygen for a long time and their brain is goo, they definitely aren't self aware: autonomic reflexes or no.

[Kalyyn]

So explain when does that happen when is it that a person is self aware. is a person in a coma self aware should they be allowed to be killed? or a person in a veggative state are they self aware? would you then also agree that some fetus develop faster then maybe others so they might become self aware sooner then others so how could you base it on time would you then need to run a self awareness test before every abortion to make sure you are not committing murder

Yes, people in comas are self-aware.
If they've entered a vegetative state, there is no way to bring them back so we may as well let them die. And no, they are not self-aware.
I don't know if a fetus can develop faster, but fortunately we can test for brain function!

[Lenonis]

So explain when does that happen when is it that a person is self aware. is a person in a coma self aware should they be allowed to be killed? or a person in a veggative state are they self aware? would you then also agree that some fetus develop faster then maybe others so they might become self aware sooner then others so how could you base it on time would you then need to run a self awareness test before every abortion to make sure you are not committing murder

You do realize that you can "pull the plug" for someone who is dependent on life support with no medical hope of recovery right? And it's not considered murder?

They are still alive at that point--yet people can make the decision to take them off life support. So.....not sure what you are arguing?