1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Acewipe View Post
    Uh really. A primary care doc will spend around $200K and 11 years becoming an attending physician. Then, the primary care doc can expect to make around $110K per year (which is not a lot of money when you are paying 2200 per month in student loan repayments and working 70+ hours a week)

    Why would someone chose to do that (unless they really care about helping people) when you could get an engineering degree or chemistry or biochemistry and make $80-85K per year after only 4 years of effort?

    Granted. if you specialize in certain areas, you will make the money back. But, under the current system, there is no incentive to be a primary care physician.
    There are actually a good number of loan forgiveness programs for PCPs; rural medicine springs to mind. I do believe that a flaw with the system is when specialists are not allowed to work as generalists. For example, if you are a plastic surgeon, you have your 4 year BS, 4 year MD, 4 year residency, and 2 year fellowship before being board certified. At this point, you're no longer allowed to perform general surgery regardless of your skill, education, or capability. This system protects the opportunities of generalists so they're not left in the dust by specialists taking their patients, but if there actually is a need for more general medicine, specialists ought to be allowed to fill in the gap.

  2. #542
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by Bridgetjones View Post
    There are actually a good number of loan forgiveness programs for PCPs; rural medicine springs to mind.
    There are some, but not many (and you usually have to pay on the loans for 10 years anyway).

    Another problem (in addition to what you mentioned) is that generalists and pcps are not allowed to do many things that they are perfectly capable of doing without referring to a specialist - so it really goes both ways.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Acewipe View Post
    You are missing the point. There is no shortage of doctors. There is a shortage of primary care doctors (everyone wants to make more money as a specialist). As such, the cots go up. By the way, the salaries for primary care are pretty low historically.

    The problem is that medicare (and private insurance) force people to go to specialists and pay out to specialists at far more than they should, resulting in an imbalance in physicians (primary v. specialists) and in increased costs.

    By the way, there is no numbers restriction concerning how many people can go to med school. Just restrictions on quality of applicants, which I personally think is necessary.
    There's a limited amount that each medical school can take, and AMA through state medical boards control the amount approved schools as well involve themselves in the process of setting these restriction on who passes. Afaik they also have a say in the whole residency process.

    And you're wrong when you say that there are no shortage of doctors. Their high salaries are already a good indicator on that. Normally such higher wages would attract more doctors to the field. The increased demand for medical education would make it profitable to establish new medical schools. This would allow more doctors to be trained and would drive down the wages of doctors. This isn't happening though because there's an artificial bottleneck.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2012-03-13 at 09:21 PM.

  4. #544
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    There's a limited amount that each medical school can take, and AMA through state medical boards control the amount approved schools as well involve themselves in the process of setting these restriction on who passes.
    Each school has its own maximum based on many factors. What is your point? Should anyone be able to set up a med school and pump out unqualified docs? And as explained several times- med school is not the problem. No one wants to be a primary care doc. The pay is shit compared with specialists. Also, another reason for the shortage is lack of funding for residency spots.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...528424238.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...Q4Q_story.html

    Two good articles that help explain the problems.

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Acewipe View Post
    Each school has its own maximum based on many factors. What is your point? Should anyone be able to set up a med school and pump out unqualified docs? And as explained several times- med school is not the problem. No one wants to be a primary care doc. The pay is shit compared with specialists. Also, another reason for the shortage is lack of funding for residency spots.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...528424238.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...Q4Q_story.html

    Two good articles that help explain the problems.
    The recidency problem is a legit one. However, if the need for primary care docs was so much higher than that of specialists, then the wages of the primary care docs should rise. The fact is that their wages are already absurdly high compared to other high-education professions.

    And the question "should anyone be able to set up a med school" is a strawman. You don't need to let anyone set up a school, you just need to let more people do it. You also need to change the licensing to work around the residency issues, which AMA has control over . AMA is just looking out for their members, but it's unfortunately coming at a significant cost to society.
    Last edited by Diurdi; 2012-03-13 at 11:36 PM.

  6. #546
    While not directly pertinent to the points being made, I wanted to toss out that my dental student ex-girlfriend was wracking up $90K per year in debt ($70K+ of that from tuition, fees, and equipment). I could barely believe it till I saw it laid out here. I don't know exactly what's wrong with a system that does that, but something's clearly quite wrong.

  7. #547
    The Lightbringer eriseis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Not the ATX :(
    Posts
    3,880
    Quote Originally Posted by emulsion View Post
    Part of that is the nature of the medical procedures/technology. They're far more complicated and more thorough than they've ever been, and of course, more expensive.
    Not necessarily, the technology becomes more specialized but also more efficient and cheap.

  8. #548
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    451
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    The recidency problem is a legit one. However, if the need for primary care docs was so much higher than that of specialists, then the wages of the primary care docs should rise. The fact is that their wages are already absurdly high compared to other high-education professions.
    No the wages are no "absurdly high" compared with other high education professions. A primary care doc makes $110K after 11 years of education. An engineer or a chemist or a lawyer or a professor can all make close to $100K with only 7 to 8 years of training.

    The wages will not rise for the primary care docs unless congress increases medicare payouts for their work (private insurance base their payouts on medicare) and allow them to be paid for work that, while they are qualified to perform, they must refer out to specialists.

    It is obvious that you are stuck on the AMA as the cause for our medical ills- and that is fine for you to think that if you want to. But the simple fact is that if you were actually close to the situation like I am and actually understood what doctors do, how they are paid, and what they go through, you would understand.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Acewipe View Post
    It is obvious that you are stuck on the AMA as the cause for our medical ills- and that is fine for you to think that if you want to. But the simple fact is that if you were actually close to the situation like I am and actually understood what doctors do, how they are paid, and what they go through, you would understand.
    AMA's only explains the absurdly high wages of medical doctors in the US, not only through the restriction of new entrants to the profession, but also by enacting strict restrictions what nurses and similar medical personell are allowed to perform. There are a plethora of other problems such as low out-of-pocket paying due to regulated insurance policies that have to cover everything etc.

  10. #550
    Stood in the Fire
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    451
    [QUOTE=Diurdi;15910865]AMA's only explains the absurdly high wages of medical doctors in the US/QUOTE]

    I just cannot take you seriously when you miss every point that I have made and that you still think doctors (including primary care docs.) make "absurdly high wages"

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by Acewipe View Post
    No the wages are no "absurdly high" compared with other high education professions. A primary care doc makes $110K after 11 years of education. An engineer or a chemist or a lawyer or a professor can all make close to $100K with only 7 to 8 years of training.
    This doesn't effect your point much, but a huge number of chemists and professors have more 7 or 8 years of training. In science, postdoctoral work's pretty much the norm, and getting job as a tenure track professor typically requires a pretty significant body of research, publications, and often grants to follow. Postdoc work is pretty analogous to residency.

  12. #552
    The Lightbringer eriseis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Not the ATX :(
    Posts
    3,880
    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    This doesn't effect your point much, but a huge number of chemists and professors have more 7 or 8 years of training. In science, postdoctoral work's pretty much the norm, and getting job as a tenure track professor typically requires a pretty significant body of research, publications, and often grants to follow. Postdoc work is pretty analogous to residency.
    I like reading your comments in science-related matters, Spectral

    (this is not sarcasm)

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by eriseis View Post
    I like reading your comments in science-related matters, Spectral
    Thank ya! I try...

  14. #554
    There definitely is a shortage of doctors and there is no doubt that it is the medical community intentionally engineering the shortage. This doesn't happen just in the US either. For example, Canadian medical associations do this deliberately as well, though you won't ever get them on the record admitting to this.

    My father has practiced medicine for the past 35 years. He sits on several medical boards and advisory bodies. I get to hear more about the rather corrupt and political machinations of the medical world than I really wanted to know.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    My father has practiced medicine for the past 35 years. He sits on several medical boards and advisory bodies. I get to hear more about the rather corrupt and political machinations of the medical world than I really wanted to know.
    The practice pretty much started with the hippocratic oath lol.

    But this is what Unions do. They attempt to improve the conditions of their members and increase their competetiveness usually by making it difficult for outsiders to compete. That's totally fine, you just need to remember this when you give them power at different boards or other decision making organs. They will use this power for the benefit of their members at the potential expense of everyone else.

  16. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    The practice pretty much started with the hippocratic oath lol.

    But this is what Unions do. They attempt to improve the conditions of their members and increase their competetiveness usually by making it difficult for outsiders to compete. That's totally fine, you just need to remember this when you give them power at different boards or other decision making organs. They will use this power for the benefit of their members at the potential expense of everyone else.
    The problem isn't the unions per se, but the motivations of the people behind it. In a culture where greed rules, of course union power will often be abused.

    I definitely have a love/hate relationship with unions. They are certainly needed to protect workers from being abused by employers, but sometimes they go too far because they are too powerful and cause more harm than good.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by ptwonline View Post
    The problem isn't the unions per se, but the motivations of the people behind it. In a culture where greed rules, of course union power will often be abused.
    You can't get greed out of it. People will always be greedy. You just need to realize that when you stack the medical boards of different states with people who all belong to the same union, they will probably try to push their union agenda at the same time.

  18. #558
    The Lightbringer eriseis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Not the ATX :(
    Posts
    3,880
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    The practice pretty much started with the hippocratic oath lol.

    But this is what Unions do. They attempt to improve the conditions of their members and increase their competetiveness usually by making it difficult for outsiders to compete. That's totally fine, you just need to remember this when you give them power at different boards or other decision making organs. They will use this power for the benefit of their members at the potential expense of everyone else.
    I usually disagree with you, but you just nailed it with this. The problem with barriers of entry in medicine is that while you wanna keep riffraff and incompetent people out, these barriers may have transformed into something purely self-servient.

    I don't get why education of doctors and their salaries needs to be such a problem. Doctors in other countries can be educated without much restrictions and are not as highly paid (still paid relatively high to the rest of their respective population, though) as American doctors and they do just fine. Just ask all the people in Texas and the rest of the border with Mexico who cross the border for health care.

  19. #559
    By the way, did anyone notice that borderline terrorist Randall Terry got himself a delegate? He even says he's going to win! Lolzy link.

  20. #560
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Århus
    Posts
    17,815
    Quote Originally Posted by eriseis View Post
    I usually disagree with you, but you just nailed it with this. The problem with barriers of entry in medicine is that while you wanna keep riffraff and incompetent people out, these barriers may have transformed into something purely self-servient.

    I don't get why education of doctors and their salaries needs to be such a problem. Doctors in other countries can be educated without much restrictions and are not as highly paid (still paid relatively high to the rest of their respective population, though) as American doctors and they do just fine. Just ask all the people in Texas and the rest of the border with Mexico who cross the border for health care.
    its quite easy to retain high quality while not restricting amount of entries based on what the AMA wants and what the universities actually has the capacity for

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •