Update on Retribution Paladin Bug

[Ascendant]

I can't imagine how screwed up Blizzard's code is that attempting to remove Vengeance in PVP somehow causes ret paladins to do 250k DPS.

And you're a professional programmer yourself and would know this?

[Seejay]

Seems a bit lacklustre to just revert the change they made back rather than attempt to fix what they were aiming to fix in the first place. I guess it's not that much of an issue but

[Fatal Jinx]

100,000 invites to D3 beta and i still didnt get in QQ

[ohgasauraus]

Let me give you an insight on how this might have happen.

Long long time ago, Ret pally have Seal of Corruption/Vengeance which is later combined into Seal of Truth. Ret pally also have a talent Seal of Command which have its effect later added into Seal of Righteousness.

Assumption:

• First implementation of Seal of Corruption/Vengeance is in the variable name "Vengeance"
• When Seal of Corruption/Vengeance becomes Seal of Truth, the variable name did not change (only the tooltips changed)
• All the Seals effect are written in the 1 function.

Simply doing a search and replace for "Vengeance" would be disastrous and would have affected the 1 function that deal with how Seals works. This is how fixing Vengeance might cause Ret pally Seal bug.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Ramman]

go to world of logs where you can find 10 man ret pally groups that blew ds away and tell me peeps went abusing this i mean really

[Raincrow]

Look, The LFR thing was also blizzards fault. It does not count as an exploit. Do you know why? Because blizzard are the ones who sat there and designed LFR, They sat there and discussed looting rules, how it would work, every tinsy little aspect of how it would work. They sat there and programmed exactly how it was supposed to work for loot. They posted it up on PTR to test it. They worked out the bugs... They posted it on live. Then they go on a banning wave because they, being blizzard, DID NOT use their brains for two seconds and consider how the loot system has worked SINCE LOOKING FOR GROUPS INCEPTION. That, puts blizzard at fault for not making sure their new lovely feature was working as intended BEFORE posting the damn thing on the ptr. So no, it is not an exploit or the players fault for using the loot system as its always been used. They never said it was not allowed before that day, They never said "you cant trade it." All they said was "You cant receive loot from a boss but once a week in lfr." They did not clarify under any circumstance you could not trade it with another raid member. Thats the truth of it. There for, Its blizzards fault for not considering how trading loot works after the player as won the roll. You can deny it all you want, blizzard can deny it, A blue post can come in here, tell me im wrong, and deny it. But it wont change the fact that I am right. Loot has always worked that way as far back as I can remember, which they would know if they actually played their own game, and its blizzards fault for not making sure the new feature was working the way they dreamed it up in their pretty little heads. They, being the guilds/people affected, raged about it because loot was working the way loot always did, and were banned for it. How in the hell is anyone supposed to know loot working the way its always worked was wrong? They weren't So no.. the LFR thing.... was NOT an exploit. Period. And no, I wont argue with you.

And yet this entire argument is invalidated by the fact that Blizzard VERY explicitly stated from before the day the LFR was ever released that the INTENTION of LFR looting system was that each player would have only one opportunity to receive loot from each boss. Being traded loot from subsequent attempts is more than one opportunity, and so while the code allowed it, it was WELL documented as being completely against the ground rules that Blizzard had established. Just because code ALLOWS you to do something does not implicitly make it Blizzards fault if you do it, when you have been given guildelines that instruct you not to do so. This is the same way laws work, for instance. Our legal "code" makes it possible for you to have a gun, but the INTENTION is that you not go gun down random people. Should you choose to do so, it isn't the laws fault for making guns available to you. You were warned well beforehand that jail (or banning) was a likely scenario.

The guilds in question knew what they were doing was wrong. Many of the higher end guilds admitted to the wrong doing. THey also knew that if other world first guilds were doing it, and IF, by some miracle or off chance Blizzard decided NOT to punish them, they would be at a significant disadvantage. So, they decided to take the risk, knowing it could blow up in their face, but also that it was likely to blow up in ALL their faces if it did.

[Allexiste]

Great that they fixed it, but they really should look at WoL and ban all of the paladins at the very top of the lists. On my server, one guild even used the bug for "progression".

[Vengfulr3ap3r]

And yet this entire argument is invalidated by the fact that Blizzard VERY explicitly stated from before the day the LFR was ever released that the INTENTION of LFR looting system was that each player would have only one opportunity to receive loot from each boss. Being traded loot from subsequent attempts is more than one opportunity, and so while the code allowed it, it was WELL documented as being completely against the ground rules that Blizzard had established. Just because code ALLOWS you to do something does not implicitly make it Blizzards fault if you do it, when you have been given guildelines that instruct you not to do so. This is the same way laws work, for instance. Our legal "code" makes it possible for you to have a gun, but the INTENTION is that you not go gun down random people. Should you choose to do so, it isn't the laws fault for making guns available to you. You were warned well beforehand that jail (or banning) was a likely scenario.

The guilds in question knew what they were doing was wrong. Many of the higher end guilds admitted to the wrong doing. THey also knew that if other world first guilds were doing it, and IF, by some miracle or off chance Blizzard decided NOT to punish them, they would be at a significant disadvantage. So, they decided to take the risk, knowing it could blow up in their face, but also that it was likely to blow up in ALL their faces if it did.

And yet this entire argument is invalidated by the fact that Blizzard VERY explicitly stated from before the day the LFR was ever released that the INTENTION of LFR looting system was that each player would have only one opportunity to receive loot from each boss. Being traded loot from subsequent attempts is more than one opportunity, and so while the code allowed it, it was WELL documented as being completely against the ground rules that Blizzard had established. Just because code ALLOWS you to do something does not implicitly make it Blizzards fault if you do it, when you have been given guildelines that instruct you not to do so. This is the same way laws work, for instance. Our legal "code" makes it possible for you to have a gun, but the INTENTION is that you not go gun down random people. Should you choose to do so, it isn't the laws fault for making guns available to you. You were warned well beforehand that jail (or banning) was a likely scenario.

The guilds in question knew what they were doing was wrong. Many of the higher end guilds admitted to the wrong doing. THey also knew that if other world first guilds were doing it, and IF, by some miracle or off chance Blizzard decided NOT to punish them, they would be at a significant disadvantage. So, they decided to take the risk, knowing it could blow up in their face, but also that it was likely to blow up in ALL their faces if it did.

My argument is not invalidated, If they wanted it to function a certain way they should have programed it to function they way they wanted it to. NOT released it, then ban people, then strip their gear and THEN fix it. NOT "rectified" after the fact and they specified each person would not be able to ROLL on loot once a week per boss. That you could not SEE the loot from the boss. They did not clarify you COULD NOT TRADE THE GEAR AMONG THE RAIDERS. How did they see what other people received? The log my friend, or xloot. Take your pick. In which case my argument is again NOT invalidated. It was in absolutely NO post I ever read concerning LFR. Not a single one. So yes, the code did allow it making it blizzards fault. BLIZZARDS. The player doesn't have any control over the code. THE PLAYER DOESN't <- capping so you understand btw. BLIZZARD does. So how is it the players fault when they forget to do something? how is it the players fault when they,blizzard, forget to code something in and punish the players its not right. It is NOT an exploit if the way the code was written ALLOWS IT. Again how was anyone supposed to know loot being loot was WRONG if blizzard never stated otherwise? They didn't the only thing they said is you cant get loot per boss but once a week, That you couldn't roll on it. Thats it. Nothing more, Nothing less.

So no dude, Sorry, if blizzard leaves something out of the code THEY create. Then their is no way it could be an exploit. Its a fuck up. Not an exploit. a fuck up on their part. Reason it isn't an exploit is also because a) An exploit is defined as "use of a situation or person in an unfair or selfish way" according to my macs dictionary. How is it unfair or selfish to trade loot the other person doesn't need to someone who does? answer; IT ISN'T. peer pressure you say? Loots in the kids inventory, let them kick the kid.. you know why? he can probably get in another party within minutes. So simply by saying that trading loot in LFR is an exploit is the same as saying blizzard has the power to go back and ban every single person in the game who has EVER traded loot to another team mate. Thats exactly what you're saying because "blizzard didn't code it in because everyone should be able to read ghost crawlers mind and determine his intention through his blue wall posts of bs". And that is one terrible analogy, a gun and trading loot have nothing in common. They dont sit there and ask you questions "are you going to kill someone with this gun? do you have any intention of shooting someone?" You buy a gun for defense, OF COURSE you're getting it with the intention of shooting someone should the time come and you like.. idk have someone break into your house or try to rob you or murder you. The law dictates that if you get attacked and are defending yourself and the other person dies… that is self defense. Meaning its okay. Lol what you said is the same as saying, "yeah so if a guy is trying to slit your throat with a knife and you shoot him, you go to prison for defending yourself". So yeah…. that was a pretty terrible analogy, Or did you just assume guns were just decoration?

And yeah. They admitted they did wrong because they had to so blizzard would cut them a break. Just because someone says "im sorry" doesn't mean they honestly mean it. Most people learn that around the age of 5. No, They didn't do wrong, They simply used more thought capacity then blizzard did and were punished for it. Its wrong to get a leg up on world first? Thats the same as saying because guild a) can dedicate 18 hrs a week to raiding and guild b) can only dedicate 12. That guild a) is exploiting. Exploiting is like… getting something thats unavailable in current content through a bug, Or using a bug to beat a boss, Or using some bug or work around to get into a heroic raid before its time. Things of that nature are exploits. An exploit is NOT using the loot system the way its always been. Let me put it this way. When you complete a dungeon. You get loot from each boss one time correct? once per run. Technically, because blizzard allows it, didn't put a block against it, didn't restrict it etc. The tank afk's RIGHT after the fight and misses the chance to roll on the gear. I win it. I trade it to the tank (who didn't roll mind you) according to YOU; Me and the tank should be banned for 8 days. We should have all gear we earned for that dungeon stripped away from us, and we should be punished or using something blizzard too no steps to stop. Lol… Righttt, and im the next pope… And yes, Thats pretty much what you just said, Because blizzard didn't code it to be "wrong" and allowed it i can still be punished. FOR USING THE SYSTEM THE WAY IT WAS CODED.

Here ill go at this from another angle since i highly doubt you'll get what I just said at all; Why do you think EULA are so long? because they try to cover every single Possible way you can get around something. Every possibility. Hence why apple says your ipod/iphone/idevce doesn't belong to you that you're renting it even though you paid for it. That they still have all rights to the device (no, that is NOT a joke or a lie, Why do you think apple tried so hard to say jailbreaking was illegal. Read the EULA sometime prior to jailbreaking being ruled legal you'll see what I mean) Because if they take steps to say what you cant do with it, Then you cant do.... ANYTHING without legal ramifications, Then they can punish you for it. By your logic they can put w/e in the hell they want in that end user license agreement. Because their intention were something totally different, even though it was not documented where the public could access it or read it in clearly formed sentences, they can take me to court for putting disturbed on my ipod because the lead developer of the ipod program hates that kind of music and his intention was to only ever use it for orchestra music. You make the rules clear before its released, you think of how you want it to function, then you code it the way you intend. if their intention (yes i know i keep repeating myself I know. Sorry) was to not have loot be traded, They should have coded it in. They were, and are, in the wrong for punishing players for using loot the way it was ALWAYS used.

Period. The guilds weren't wrong they just had to suck up, The players didn't deserve to be banned, They didn't deserve to have the gear stripped from them. Blizzard was just to butt hurt to say "whoops… we messed up sorry if you didn't jump on our failure". Blizzard almost NEVER admits when they make a mistake. Yet they do it all the time, Its that kind of behavior that has lost over 1.7 million subscribers in less then a year. That kind of childish behavior is exactly the kind of thing that leaves a sour taste in peopls mouths and makes those people not play any blizzard product any more. They get the mentality of "well if they want to treat the playerbase with so little respect... then they dont deserve my money". Besides they only punished people because it was easier then saying sorry to the community and everyone trying to get world first. If blizzard actually played their game, and moused over ANY item they received from a loot roll they would have thought to code it in to not be able to trade loot. But they didn't, Which further goes to show that blizzard doesn't play their own game, Proof enough of that is in their lovely pvp and pve posts.. Lol. So no, again. for the 3875873475 time. It was not an exploit or taking advantage in anyway.

[aggression]

When the F will Europe get invited

---------- Post added 2012-02-04 at 03:08 AM ----------

In Blizzard terms. Then what IS "Extreme cases"? To kill 2 hard bosses on heroic mode for first time, using 3 pallys in 370-gear (that never raided with the setup earlier)? Or using 3 pallys, downing same bosses week after week...that been there for every kill, ilvl 400? If none, then what?? I can see several new logs @ WoL.com with pallys doing all from 100k up to even above 1M (yeah, MILLION dee pee ass) dps, lol?

[Derpyhooves]

Great that they fixed it, but they really should look at WoL and ban all of the paladins at the very top of the lists. On my server, one guild even used the bug for "progression".

Yeah I am on a pretty bad raiding realm so it is easy to notice when a guild suddenly jumps up in progression overnight. There is at least one guild I know of who were.... lets say only mediocre in progression and that night they got 2 new heroic bosses down. Checked the logs they had uploaded and sure enough ret pally doing 500k dps on yorsahj, they killed him in like 2 minutes. Surely blizzard would consider this exploiting a bug to obtain an unfair advantage? I mean they got heroic gear they would not have otherwise been able to get.... how is that any different to exploiting LFR for gear?

[Vengfulr3ap3r]

clipped for space

It's not really an opinion, its the facts. If they leave it out of the code, because they didn't have the foresight to wonder "what if" Then it is on the fault of blizzard and no, You cant convince me to change my mind, for the singular fact what you're saying is that its okay for blizzard to punish people for not making their intentions clear. That because they intended a spell mace to only be used by a paladin but didn't code it out so that a druid cant use it. That when the druid gets that piece of gear and equips it he has the right to be banned and the gear stripped from him. They screwed up, They didn't think ahead, and instead of admitting failure they banned and stripped the players gear.

My opinion is my opinion and yours is yours. Im simply defending my point of view, its how a debate is started. But yes, I do believe its the devs responsibility to fix problems in the code. Its kinda what they get paid to do, Considering it is in the job description. See, I could understand the point of view you have of it being a bug... But heres the problem The game its self should have been internally tested first, as a kind of alpha. Then posted on the ptr as beta. Then posted on life. They had plenty of opportunity to see and fix said issue long before it ever hit live. It was on PTR for that long... and they didn't do anything to it, It was only after posting it on live that they took steps. That is the issue. Its their job to make sure things are working perfectly BEFORE the public gets it, that its working as intended. They clearly didn't do that so they made a mistake. I agree with you on the ping pong thing. Lol the 5ft rule would be stupid. But what blizzard did is the equvilant of saying "alright, as long as the ball or paddle aren't modified, as long as no one joins in its good!" then when you actually win they say, "okay.... i forgot, you weren't supposed to move more then five foot so you automatically forefit the match because we forgot to tell you that." Thats what they did. No their opinion isn't in line with mine. Their opinion isn't in like with around 90% of the playerbase. They think they are untouchable gods of the world who can do anything they want to the player base and keep them paying. They think they can treat the customers with no respect what so ever and still get their money. They dont believe they can do anything at all wrong, and that they never make mistakes. Blizzard as a company concerning wow is arrogant. So no, our opinions dont match up. But what they did was wrong on every level.

Neither do you, You dont know if they meant what they said or if they didn't. You dont know why they said it no more then I do. Im simply responding based on basic human psychology. If people are going to get punished, as in.. they get told off for doing something, most everyone will try to appease the other person. Its how humans work. It was only AFTER they stated getting the ban letters and what not that they did it, If they did it before then it was a bug and they were sure of it. If it happened after, it was to appease blizzard to earn leniency. Thats common sense.

Yes, I do, But blizzard didn't take steps to make it automatically bound on said character who wins the loot in the first place. In which case when they trade it to another member within the raid it doesn't count as an exploit. Thats my point. All blizzard said, again having to repeat my self, is that you couldn't roll/win/see loot from said boss but once a week (until it reset). They didn't specify if you could or couldn't trade. Their intentions mean nothing, Their thoughts mean nothing, All that matters is what they did and didn't tell the player base. To which they did not tell the playerbase it was wrong, else they would have coded against the fact. Truth is they didn't even consider the possiblity of someone using their brain to that extent. And no its not my party, Lol, It doesn't matter what I think. But then again.. it doesn't matter what you think either. If my opinion is meaningless on the matter then so is yours. To say it matters more then mine, is the same to say you're from blizzard and you're better then everyone else. And its exactly that reason that blizzard, as a company, are completely and utterly arrogant to their customers. That... and it means you are on one high horse and need to get off it and no, I do not believe it was a bug. I, as i said in my prior post, Believe it was a fuck up on blizzards part and they're to arrogant to admit they can make a mistake or fail at something. Its that same reason that the servers wont be merged even thou the mass majority are sitting pretty at "light"

If my opinion doesn't matter, Neither does yours. So we might as well agree to disagree. Else this will just continue until the tread is closed.

[Akea]

It's not really an opinion, its the facts. If they leave it out of the code, because they didn't have the foresight to wonder "what if" Then it is on the fault of blizzard and no, You cant convince me to change my mind, for the singular fact what you're saying is that its okay for blizzard to punish people for not making their intentions clear. That because they intended a spell mace to only be used by a paladin but didn't code it out so that a druid cant use it. That when the druid gets that piece of gear and equips it he has the right to be banned and the gear stripped from him. They screwed up, They didn't think ahead, and instead of admitting failure they banned and stripped the players gear.

My opinion is my opinion and yours is yours. Im simply defending my point of view, its how a debate is started. But yes, I do believe its the devs responsibility to fix problems in the code. Its kinda what they get paid to do, Considering it is in the job description. See, I could understand the point of view you have of it being a bug... But heres the problem The game its self should have been internally tested first, as a kind of alpha. Then posted on the ptr as beta. Then posted on life. They had plenty of opportunity to see and fix said issue long before it ever hit live. It was on PTR for that long... and they didn't do anything to it, It was only after posting it on live that they took steps. That is the issue. Its their job to make sure things are working perfectly BEFORE the public gets it, that its working as intended. They clearly didn't do that so they made a mistake. I agree with you on the ping pong thing. Lol the 5ft rule would be stupid. But what blizzard did is the equvilant of saying "alright, as long as the ball or paddle aren't modified, as long as no one joins in its good!" then when you actually win they say, "okay.... i forgot, you weren't supposed to move more then five foot so you automatically forefit the match because we forgot to tell you that." Thats what they did. No their opinion isn't in line with mine. Their opinion isn't in like with around 90% of the playerbase. They think they are untouchable gods of the world who can do anything they want to the player base and keep them paying. They think they can treat the customers with no respect what so ever and still get their money. They dont believe they can do anything at all wrong, and that they never make mistakes. Blizzard as a company concerning wow is arrogant. So no, our opinions dont match up. But what they did was wrong on every level.

Neither do you, You dont know if they meant what they said or if they didn't. You dont know why they said it no more then I do. Im simply responding based on basic human psychology. If people are going to get punished, as in.. they get told off for doing something, most everyone will try to appease the other person. Its how humans work. It was only AFTER they stated getting the ban letters and what not that they did it, If they did it before then it was a bug and they were sure of it. If it happened after, it was to appease blizzard to earn leniency. Thats common sense.

Yes, I do, But blizzard didn't take steps to make it automatically bound on said character who wins the loot in the first place. In which case when they trade it to another member within the raid it doesn't count as an exploit. Thats my point. All blizzard said, again having to repeat my self, is that you couldn't roll/win/see loot from said boss but once a week (until it reset). They didn't specify if you could or couldn't trade. Their intentions mean nothing, Their thoughts mean nothing, All that matters is what they did and didn't tell the player base. To which they did not tell the playerbase it was wrong, else they would have coded against the fact. Truth is they didn't even consider the possiblity of someone using their brain to that extent. And no its not my party, Lol, It doesn't matter what I think. But then again.. it doesn't matter what you think either. If my opinion is meaningless on the matter then so is yours. To say it matters more then mine, is the same to say you're from blizzard and you're better then everyone else. And its exactly that reason that blizzard, as a company, are completely and utterly arrogant to their customers. That... and it means you are on one high horse and need to get off it and no, I do not believe it was a bug. I, as i said in my prior post, Believe it was a fuck up on blizzards part and they're to arrogant to admit they can make a mistake or fail at something. Its that same reason that the servers wont be merged even thou the mass majority are sitting pretty at "light"

If my opinion doesn't matter, Neither does yours. So we might as well agree to disagree. Else this will just continue until the tread is closed.

Clear example of wall of text. You obviously have not taken a comprehensive writing class in college.

[Gage26]

Vengfulr3ap3r,

Wonderful Post

Rook you said everything I wanted to say much more elegantly. The LFR EXPLOIT involved comprehensive steps outside of how LFR should be normally used. The Ret Paladin BUG and the LFR EXPLOIT were handled differently because it was two different things.

[kclubb]

The Ret bug wasn't even on the PTR. Please read before commenting next time.

He quoted that because they didn't put that patch on a PTR before putting it live.... Please read before commenting next time. mmk?