Arena balance might be just a couple of nerfs away...

[redderz1]

Rogues aren't about burst and I don't think they will open with ambush on a healer tbh.

And yet the OP wants Rogue burst damage nerfed.

On rare occurances you can open with ambush. But most often yes you'll open with Garrote.

Talking from RBG exsperience around the 2k level, I'm seeing backstab CRIT Holy paladins, Resto shammys, disc priests even Hunters for around 16-17k WITH FW up. Tanking classes im seeing it crit for sub 7k. Ive seen 5 point eviscerates crit for 7k.

My point is, that unlike the OP's assumption, actual facts, actual experience of dealing out damage as a rogue does not indicate that burst is too high. In fact you might say that that is the reason rogues retain so much utility.

If you want to look at why certain classes do so well in certain arena comps you have to look at class synergy. Disc and Frost have amazing synergy for 2's. Add in a rogue who need only contribute smoke bomb, sap and blind to the mix and you have a very strong comp. The mage is providing the majority of the burst damage here.

[Deleted]

mmm i can see why frost and ferals might need a slight nerf at the moment but i dont think rogues are that op. Frost mages have been op since the beginning of time, they have just too much cc, damage and if you go against one with a legendary you have no hope. The ferals bleed affects are killer at the moment and when near death they just transform to get a ridiculous amount of dodge and health. Rogues are great for dropping people but i find them to struggle to finish people off (im a holy pala) and compared to the other 2 clases don´t deal half the damage.
I think it would be impossible to have arenas balanced, as soon as they nerf one class another becomes stronger.

[Johnmatrix]

If you think mage is OP in 3s you're clearly a low rated idiot, melee can sit mages all day in 3s and lock the mage out.

I think we both have issues with mages: im frustrated, you are biased but our opinions really don't define if mage really is OP in 3s or not. Simple raw data from the brackets shows that the comps that I listed in the original posts are very much presented in top teams, and most of those comps are there because of how absurd frost mage is. You can sit on them as a melee for a while, but it depends a lot of what comp you play.

There is a huge difference between good and bad mages, and i don't think mage should be balanced with the bad players in mind :P

EDIT: I don't think that rogues should be balanced around backstab crits on a holy paladin (or any other healer) in 1v1 situation either :P Rogue is about so much more than just backstab crits without cooldowns. Their damage is too high compared to their control and utility. Even hemo spam works too effectively nowadays. My brother and team member plays a rogue and im pretty familiar with their damage and most of the numbers pointed out in this topic are not quite there :P

[Penances]

Talking from RBG exsperience around the 2k level, I'm seeing backstab CRIT Holy paladins, Resto shammys, disc priests even Hunters for around 16-17k WITH FW up. Tanking classes im seeing it crit for sub 7k. Ive seen 5 point eviscerates crit for 7k.

I'm usually being hit for ~20k by any well enchanted and gemmed rogue with 397 daggers as a 4.2k resil Disc Priest (with Focused Will on). As Holy Priest, it's about 23/24/25k.

Anyway, I don't find rogue damage insane. Just saying that if you're a decent geared rogue I find hard not to hit for less than 20k with BS while FW is up.

[chemicader]

On that list only one thing is op...and that is Ferals!! Mages are not op in 3v3 atall.

Feral's at the moment are so op its unreal.
Rogues are strong not op its the nerd gear pre-nerf that mage them op!

Rogues alone are not op, but in some comps they are. Its not really fun when you get double smoke bomb and 2-3 dps nuking you without a way out.

[redderz1]

I'm usually being hit for ~20k by any well enchanted and gemmed rogue with 397 daggers as a 4.2k resil Disc Priest (with Focused Will on). As Holy Priest, it's about 23/24/25k.

Anyway, I don't find rogue damage insane. Just saying that if you're a decent geared rogue I find hard not to hit for less than 20k with BS while FW is up.

Which i think is probably in line with what i was saying, taking into account the fact I'm going against 4.7k+ resi oponints.

Simply put. Rogue burst is not as high as other burst specs out there. Its not as hight as frost, frost dk or ferals. It makes up for this by having slightly more utility.

[Deatheryn]

What needs to be understood is that the fact blizz wants to not separate abilities based on whether you are in pvp or pve, therefore pvp will never be balanced because to balance for only pvp purposes screws up balance in pve!
Pvp won't ever be balanced until Blizz makes abilities function differently in pvp than they do in pve like how stuns/roots have a decreased duration in pvp as compared to pve!

[Flaks]

On that list only one thing is op...and that is Ferals!! Mages are not op in 3v3 atall.

Feral's at the moment are so op its unreal.
Rogues are strong not op its the nerd gear pre-nerf that mage them op!

Mage: does 120k damage in a single deep freeze. Balanced
Rogue: Brings smokebomb TWICE and deals 70k+ in a single shadow dance without vial. Balanced

[Deleted]

Please stop making balancing suggestions if you dont know how these classes actually are. Blizz listens to QQ like this; therefor the game gets more and more out of balance.

Besides that, blizz cares more about pve then pvp. They will never balance pvp perfectly because it will affect pve.

[ophion1990]

Feral survivability (which is the real problem with them atm) is seeing a nerf, with the splitting off of the guardian spec.

Rogues are losing ShStep or Prep, tho overall are looking pretty strong.

Rogues are gonna be kiteable as fuck, throwing weapons are removed for out class, this means no ranged crippling apply (except with fok but that can easily be outranged), deadly throw is becoming a talent, our only ranged snare, a talent. Combat Readiness is on the same tier as deadly throw, thats a pretty big chunk out of our survival.
Prep and ShS will become talents in the same tier, both are very powerful, prep offers an extra smokebomb/vanish/... and shadowstep is shadowstep, a gap closer and a very good one. In short, rogue doesn't look that great atm but I doubt the class will ever be bad in pvp though.

Feral is getting its survivability nerfed to the ground, I'm interested to see how it will work out.

But even with these 2 strong classes nerfed, a new one will arise. I honestly doubt blizzard will every be able to get each class reasonably balanced, some specs are just doomed to be less effective forever unless they got some outrageous damage buff (see boomkin s8). Or have the class reworked. Its just a part of PvP I guess, I can't say I ever played an online game where there was never atleast 1 class that was better then the rest.

Also funny you mention mage, rogue, feral and affli lock but stay quit about some other classes with their retarded burst. "coughhunterretcough" They lack control (well, they have less control then some others) but their damage is just absurd, look at some ele vs ret duels, good stuff. Or ret vs anything really, the amount of damage they do and survival they have, not to mention they can go defensive for their team mates aswell.

TLDR: Nerfing the classes you mentioned won't do anything, alot more needs to be done.

[Shaderas]

Honestly, I started playing Rogue back in vanilla because of burst. I wish they would reduce some of our control a bit, and let us keep the burst.

[Tyrean]

Which i think is probably in line with what i was saying, taking into account the fact I'm going against 4.7k+ resi oponints.

95ish resilience rating for 1%. So you go from 44%ish to 49%ish. So that 20k goes to 19k. focused will and inner will probably counteract the gains from plate (I am guessing here). So I would say that the argument that 4200 resilience is scrub pvp while 4700 resilience is the real pvp is not exactly a good one.

[Kalan]

Rogue/Mage problem is not their damage... it's their CC/survivability... if they were actually REAL glass canon, it would be balanced.

[Trigunflame]

My point is, that unlike the OP's assumption, actual facts, actual experience of dealing out damage as a rogue does not indicate that burst is too high. In fact you might say that that is the reason rogues retain so much utility.

4600 res, rogue takes me from 100% to 15% before I ever get out of the initial stun lock.

Rogues are gonna be kiteable as fuck, throwing weapons are removed for out class, this means no ranged crippling apply (except with fok but that can easily be outranged), deadly throw is becoming a talent, our only ranged snare, a talent.

You don't need a ranged snare; your crippling poison is the most potent (70%) snare in the game + ShadowStep to re-apply.

--

You're both wrong.

[Deleted]

Arena balance will only happen, when you PvP with PvP gear and 0 PvE.
Ofcourse PvP gear should serve its purpose and characters should be balanced around it.
This and some class fixes are the solution to the endless balance question.

[Deleted]

On that list only one thing is op...and that is Ferals!! Mages are not op in 3v3 atall.

Feral's at the moment are so op its unreal.
Rogues are strong not op its the nerd gear pre-nerf that mage them op!

10 bucks that you play RMP.

Mages are rogues are fucking overpowered, seriously...

[Nyaldee]

We've too many wrongs with different classes to fix it in this expansion - unreal control/dmg/survivability for rogues/mages, crazy sustained dmg/unavoidable undispellable CC from feral druids coupled with crazy survivability, even hunters with top tier raiding gear (2xpve set, MoD weapon, agility stacking trinket) are doing insane amount of dmg, 3 dps setups zerging healers during immunities/trinkets etc. etc. etc. We can only hope for Blizzard going through with making pvp gear BiS for pvp and new talent system forcing ppls to make real choices between abilities that matters.

So all in all not expecting any big balance changes in cata, only hope we won't have to wait 8 months for MoP.

[Brosemon]

People play sub and frost in pve?

Sub is the top dps rogue spec right now.
Idk how good frost is, but its fun in pve.

[Kasreyn]

If you think mage is OP in 3s you're clearly a low rated idiot, melee can sit mages all day in 3s and lock the mage out.

Are you high? Mages are the most OP class in the game right now. Sounds like you are a bad mage who has no clue how to gain distance and control.

[redderz1]

4600 res, rogue takes me from 100% to 15% before I ever get out of the initial stun lock.



You don't need a ranged snare; your crippling poison is the most potent (70%) snare in the game + ShadowStep to re-apply.

--

You're both wrong.

You are just flat out lying. There is not one spec in the game that a rogue can take to 15% inside "stunlock"

You also havent looked at the rogue MoP talents.

So no. Its you who is wrong.