Solution To PVP Warrior Burst...

[deadgamedead]

The current problem with warriors in pvp is first their lack of sustatined mobility, and second their burst. If you are a warrior and get lucky enough to have a healer that is willing to heal and be a dispell bot for your mobility, its still looks bleak because your burst is gimped. While warriors are critting for 15-20k, other classes are spamming for 30k plus with some being able to hit from 5 times the distance. The reason for this is due to the nerf to colossus smash. Let me explain. Warriors have been given a real low crit rate in order to balance their burst with colossus smash. Now that pvp warriors have colossus smash nerfed to 50% and their crit rates still low, their burst is horrid. Their burst had already been balanced with the flat nerf to arms and the deadly calm/reck nerf, there was no need to hit CS that hard. The solution is to either buff their crit rate, or buff colussus smash...its that simple. Oh, and in before their damage is fine, no its not. Warriors sustained damage is ok, but thats only due to bladestorm and sweeping strikes being in the mix, you take that out, and its mediocre.

[palladish]

I hope you realize they fixed sweeping strikes to not proc off bladestorm in like wotlk

[Asmodejjj]

I doubt they'll fix CS back to what it was. Too much QQ about it, and we weren't smart enough to protest the nerf.....

[deadgamedead]

[/COLOR]

I doubt they'll fix CS back to what it was. Too much QQ about it, and we weren't smart enough to protest the nerf.....

We protested alright, they just did not read their own forums...

---------- Post added 2012-02-04 at 03:54 AM ----------

I hope you realize they fixed sweeping strikes to not proc off bladestorm in like wotlk

I know this....its just each move hits multiple targets by themselves and inflates our overall damage...

[PizzaSHARK]

Warriors are perfectly balanced right now. Using Shield Wall and Spell Reflection should be easier (they should still require shields), and Shield Wall's base cooldown should be reduced to about 3 minutes, but otherwise they're in a great place.

Really, the only two melee that are problematic right now are Ferals and Sub Rogues. Everyone else is in a pretty good place overall.

[deadgamedead]

Warriors are perfectly balanced right now. Using Shield Wall and Spell Reflection should be easier (they should still require shields), and Shield Wall's base cooldown should be reduced to about 3 minutes, but otherwise they're in a great place.

Really, the only two melee that are problematic right now are Ferals and Sub Rogues. Everyone else is in a pretty good place overall.

Lol..everyone else is in a good place? Mages should be on that balancing list as well. Being balanced is relative to other classes and how they perform, so the logic that all those other classes need to be tuned down, means warriors are not a in a good place!

[Zamix]

Warriors are perfectly balanced right now. Using Shield Wall and Spell Reflection should be easier (they should still require shields), and Shield Wall's base cooldown should be reduced to about 3 minutes, but otherwise they're in a great place.

Really, the only two melee that are problematic right now are Ferals and Sub Rogues. Everyone else is in a pretty good place overall.

Gratz you just described the warriors mediocre defense, completely disregarding our horrid damage, but our mediocre defense is suppose to make up for all of that and put us in a good place as you so said in your idiotic post

[Crushima]

Warriors are perfectly balanced right now. Using Shield Wall and Spell Reflection should be easier (they should still require shields), and Shield Wall's base cooldown should be reduced to about 3 minutes, but otherwise they're in a great place.

Really, the only two melee that are problematic right now are Ferals and Sub Rogues. Everyone else is in a pretty good place overall.

Perfectly balanced, what are you smoking? Go check the warrior 3v3 arena representation, its at its lowest ever.

[PizzaSHARK]

Gratz you just described the warriors mediocre defense, completely disregarding our horrid damage, but our mediocre defense is suppose to make up for all of that and put us in a good place as you so said in your idiotic post

I play multiple classes, including Warriors.

Warriors are in a pretty good place. The only melee that outperform them in all areas are Rogues and Ferals and everyone knows Rogues and Ferals are overpowered this season.

Honestly, you shouldn't be talking about balance if you can't keep your bias at arms' reach. I personally prefer my Enhancement Shaman but I'm not running around screaming about every little problem the spec has and acting as if Blizzard's design team have a personal grudge against me and my favorite spec.

Lol..everyone else is in a good place? Mages should be on that balancing list as well. Being balanced is relative to other classes and how they perform, so the logic that all those other classes need to be tuned down, means warriors are not a in a good place!

I said "melee." Yes, frost mages are overpowered, but they aren't melee. They aren't part of the discussion.

Relative to other melee classes, Warriors are only outclassed by Rogues and Ferals, who most everyone agree are at least very strong this season, if not outright overpowered. Warriors are not decisively weaker or stronger than DKs, Shamans, or Paladins.

[deadgamedead]

I play multiple classes, including Warriors.

Warriors are in a pretty good place. The only melee that outperform them in all areas are Rogues and Ferals and everyone knows Rogues and Ferals are overpowered this season.

Honestly, you shouldn't be talking about balance if you can't keep your bias at arms' reach. I personally prefer my Enhancement Shaman but I'm not running around screaming about every little problem the spec has and acting as if Blizzard's design team have a personal grudge against me and my favorite spec.



I said "melee." Yes, frost mages are overpowered, but they aren't melee. They aren't part of the discussion.

Relative to other melee classes, Warriors are only outclassed by Rogues and Ferals, who most everyone agree are at least very strong this season, if not outright overpowered. Warriors are not decisively weaker or stronger than DKs, Shamans, or Paladins.

I really wish ehancement would quit comparing themselves to warriors when they have another spec that is doing great in pvp. The only viable spec for the entire class of warriors is arms, and it is severely underpowered. Regarding your comment for comparing warriors to just melee and leaving out mages, that is just absurd. First, when comparing a classes viablitiy to pvp, you cannot simply leave out casters. Second, this is my thread, and pvp as a whole is the discussion when comparing warriors viablity to classes regarding burst. Lol, one cannot join arena and choose the "melee" only option. Lastly, warriors are decisively weaker compared to dk's, shamans and paladins in higher arena brackets.

[PizzaSHARK]

I really wish ehancement would quit comparing themselves to warriors when they have another spec that is doing great in pvp. The only viable spec for the entire class of warriors is arms,

Protection is the only viable option for flagcarrying in high-rated RBGs. They have more mobility than any other flagcarrier and are the only flagcarrier that can effectively ignore the first Smoke Bomb.

Whoops, that means Warriors only have "two viable specs."

and it is severely underpowered.

No, it isn't. Arms is doing pretty well. They have solid sustained damage, the MS debuff, one of the best stuns in the game, and are harder to kill than most other melee. Even after the removal of Intercept, they still have some of the best mobility of melee as well. Just because you aren't globaling people during a stun like Rogues doesn't mean your spec is weak.

Regarding your comment for comparing warriors to just melee and leaving out mages, that is just absurd. First, when comparing a classes viablitiy to pvp, you cannot simply leave out casters.

You can when you're directing the discussion specifically as one melee spec compared to the other melee specs. That's what I'm doing. Frost Mages are also the only ranged that's clearly overpowered right now. Balancing melee to be able to fight Frost Mages 1v1 is a completely retarded idea and it's the entire reason we have core problems with the entire PvP system - because at some point Blizzard decided to balance the game around Arms Warriors and Frost Mages, all the way back to TBC. Anyone that takes a few minutes to pay attention to changes and problems during specific seasons can trace all of the problems back to that.

Second, this is my thread,

And how is this significant? Because it's your thread, people are not allowed to disagree with you, or their arguments are immediately invalidated?

and pvp as a whole is the discussion when comparing warriors viablity to classes regarding burst. Lol, one cannot join arena and choose the "melee" only option.

There's more to PvP than burst. Having strong, sustained damage can be even more challenging to deal with than burst, and Warriors have good, sustained damage, similar to MM hunters and Unholy DKs. You aren't going to global someone, and you aren't ever going to see ridiculous 50k crits, but you are going to be able to produce a lot of pressure by producing decent numbers consistently.

Lastly, warriors are decisively weaker compared to dk's, shamans and paladins in higher arena brackets.

How so? DKs are laughably easy to train down, enhancement shamans aren't there to do damage, and ret pallies are arguably the easiest melee in the entire game to tunnel-vision with all of their defensive abilities AND offensive abilities being dispellable.

The vast majority of shamans at high ratings are Restoration. The vast majority of paladins at high ratings are Holy. DKs are more represented than Warriors, but that's because they're work better with the current top tier classes than Warriors do in many cases. That doesn't mean Warriors are weak.

Warriors are in a solid place right now. They need some quality of life tweaks and there are a few select places where they could use some minor buffs, but they aren't crippled. You aren't doing anyone a favor by acting as if Warriors are incapable of participating in PvP meaningfully.

[Thompson]

Warriors are perfectly balanced right now. Using Shield Wall and Spell Reflection should be easier (they should still require shields), and Shield Wall's base cooldown should be reduced to about 3 minutes, but otherwise they're in a great place.

Really, the only two melee that are problematic right now are Ferals and Sub Rogues. Everyone else is in a pretty good place overall.

do you even play this game?

[tinkabela]

Warriors main problem is not the damage of our abilities, although it is on the weak side (see 15k MS crits v 30k backstab crits), it's our inability to stay on a target that is the main problem.

Now when you combine a real lack of ability to stay on a target, with stupid LTTS dropping off almost every time we get the slightest CC on us, with less than average damage : well then we can't output pressure.

Solutions?

Maybe buff LTTS to 30s, or just remove the talent and bake it into MS
Buff CS back to 100%, or maybe 75% if that's a bit too high
Bake hamstring into overpower or rend ticks- removing our ned to spend every fourth global using hamstring.

[Obelodalix]

Solutions?

Maybe buff LTTS to 30s, or just remove the talent and bake it into MS
Buff CS back to 100%, or maybe 75% if that's a bit too high
Bake hamstring into overpower or rend ticks- removing our ned to spend every fourth global using hamstring.

Surprisingly enough, I agree. Warrior damage is lackluster but it's not nearly as much of a problem as staying on a target is; One can't simply just go around shouting "warriors are fine" when you have to take other classes into account - let's put it this way, if warriors were the only melee class in the game, they'd be in a decent spot and only in need to minor tweaking. But are they? No? Right then, the fact a rogue works better than they do in 95% of the top tier comps (only ones they can compete in are the ones where they get carried by superior melee/classes in general, read kittycleave and WLS, though no warlock/shaman will EVER take a warrior over a rogue if their intention is to compete for gladiator/rank 1) means warriors are not fine.

I've said this before many, many times when warriors are the issue at hand - being balanced is very different from being at a solid place, the fact the class itself is probably the most balanced right now alongside holy paladins and disc priests but they simply can not compete because every other wipes the shit and stains off of the floor with them; that's not being at a solid place, and it would only be a "solid place" if every other class and spec that's over the top was brought down.

Back to the suggested solutions - Lambs drops constantly if you play a "normal" combo, simply because you're cc'd to fuck most of the time. Watching people let them drop when they could've easily refreshed the stacks makes me extremely sad (Hoodrych), and the warriors I play with can never stress enough how important keeping them stacked is. Bumping it to 30 seconds would definitely help lots, as would making hamstring become an "inbuilt" ability, even though it would dumb the class even further down compared to what it used to be. What can we do, though, it's not like they're willing to make ferals or rogues harder to play so the only reasonable solution would be dumbing down warriors to their level of play; while we're at it, make shield wall and spell reflect a shorter cooldown and not require a shield equipped. Or just wait for MoP and hope they manage to equalize melee classes again.

[tinkabela]

Surprisingly enough, I agree. Warrior damage is lackluster but it's not nearly as much of a problem as staying on a target is; One can't simply just go around shouting "warriors are fine" when you have to take other classes into account - let's put it this way, if warriors were the only melee class in the game, they'd be in a decent spot and only in need to minor tweaking. But are they? No? Right then, the fact a rogue works better than they do in 95% of the top tier comps (only ones they can compete in are the ones where they get carried by superior melee/classes in general, read kittycleave and WLS, though no warlock/shaman will EVER take a warrior over a rogue if their intention is to compete for gladiator/rank 1) means warriors are not fine.

I've said this before many, many times when warriors are the issue at hand - being balanced is very different from being at a solid place, the fact the class itself is probably the most balanced right now alongside holy paladins and disc priests but they simply can not compete because every other wipes the shit and stains off of the floor with them; that's not being at a solid place, and it would only be a "solid place" if every other class and spec that's over the top was brought down.

Back to the suggested solutions - Lambs drops constantly if you play a "normal" combo, simply because you're cc'd to fuck most of the time. Watching people let them drop when they could've easily refreshed the stacks makes me extremely sad (Hoodrych), and the warriors I play with can never stress enough how important keeping them stacked is. Bumping it to 30 seconds would definitely help lots, as would making hamstring become an "inbuilt" ability, even though it would dumb the class even further down compared to what it used to be. What can we do, though, it's not like they're willing to make ferals or rogues harder to play so the only reasonable solution would be dumbing down warriors to their level of play; while we're at it, make shield wall and spell reflect a shorter cooldown and not require a shield equipped. Or just wait for MoP and hope they manage to equalize melee classes again.

I agree with all that you said.

I agree baking hamstring in would dumb the class down to the level I ferals, but unfortunately it's probably needed unless you are playing TSG/kitty cleave.

Keeping up LTTS is very hard against most competent teams in 3v3 at 15s
Just buffing it to 30s would have a big impact on warrior viability.

CS is the obvious choice for changes that wouldn't affect pve, as is LTTS

Changing spell reflect and shield wall to not need shields- well I don't think that is really going to dumb down the class at all - what skill is there in a macro? It would however remove the oh so important GCD wasting/time delay of the macro, which can be the difference between life and death, would allow warriors to keep up pressure during shield wall (currently if you wall now your damage drops 50% bit realistically your pressure drops 100% ), and would make casters think before spamming spells on us willy-nilly. Would also rob ably allow for a higher skill cap with intervene/reflect macros not completely killing our pressure.

Those few changes would do nothing to pve, bit would go a long way to fixing warriors in pvp.

[Durmindo]

Protection is the only viable option for flagcarrying in high-rated RBGs. They have more mobility than any other flagcarrier and are the only flagcarrier that can effectively ignore the first Smoke Bomb.

Whoops, that means Warriors only have "two viable specs."




No, it isn't. Arms is doing pretty well. They have solid sustained damage, the MS debuff, one of the best stuns in the game, and are harder to kill than most other melee. Even after the removal of Intercept, they still have some of the best mobility of melee as well. Just because you aren't globaling people during a stun like Rogues doesn't mean your spec is weak.



You can when you're directing the discussion specifically as one melee spec compared to the other melee specs. That's what I'm doing. Frost Mages are also the only ranged that's clearly overpowered right now. Balancing melee to be able to fight Frost Mages 1v1 is a completely retarded idea and it's the entire reason we have core problems with the entire PvP system - because at some point Blizzard decided to balance the game around Arms Warriors and Frost Mages, all the way back to TBC. Anyone that takes a few minutes to pay attention to changes and problems during specific seasons can trace all of the problems back to that.



And how is this significant? Because it's your thread, people are not allowed to disagree with you, or their arguments are immediately invalidated?



There's more to PvP than burst. Having strong, sustained damage can be even more challenging to deal with than burst, and Warriors have good, sustained damage, similar to MM hunters and Unholy DKs. You aren't going to global someone, and you aren't ever going to see ridiculous 50k crits, but you are going to be able to produce a lot of pressure by producing decent numbers consistently.



How so? DKs are laughably easy to train down, enhancement shamans aren't there to do damage, and ret pallies are arguably the easiest melee in the entire game to tunnel-vision with all of their defensive abilities AND offensive abilities being dispellable.

The vast majority of shamans at high ratings are Restoration. The vast majority of paladins at high ratings are Holy. DKs are more represented than Warriors, but that's because they're work better with the current top tier classes than Warriors do in many cases. That doesn't mean Warriors are weak.

Warriors are in a solid place right now. They need some quality of life tweaks and there are a few select places where they could use some minor buffs, but they aren't crippled. You aren't doing anyone a favor by acting as if Warriors are incapable of participating in PvP meaningfully.

Exactly, the sustained the damage from warrior is awesome, the debuff 25% of heal rock's, The people just need to learn to play the class.

[tinkabela]

Exactly, the sustained the damage from warrior is awesome, the debuff 25% of heal rock's, The people just need to learn to play the class.

No. Just no.

[Jaojin]

Warriors main problem is not the damage of our abilities, although it is on the weak side (see 15k MS crits v 30k backstab crits), it's our inability to stay on a target that is the main problem.

Now when you combine a real lack of ability to stay on a target, with stupid LTTS dropping off almost every time we get the slightest CC on us, with less than average damage : well then we can't output pressure.

Solutions?

Maybe buff LTTS to 30s, or just remove the talent and bake it into MS
Buff CS back to 100%, or maybe 75% if that's a bit too high
Bake hamstring into overpower or rend ticks- removing our ned to spend every fourth global using hamstring.

Mists seems like it's trying to address the snare issue already. So, it's probably best to see what they come up with first, then suggest a change to that (otherwise it'll fall on deaf ears.) It might also address the CS issue, but who's to say; they tell us "We are working on it" so not much you can do in either department.

However, the LttS buff you suggested is greatly, GREATLY, needed. Not only for PvP but PvE as well. I played as strictly Arms from pre-Ulduar Wrath, and I went back to Fury just recently cause I was sick of spending all my time just barely keeping Slaughter stacked due to the high movement of most fights, and having to restack it whenever the fight had any kind of brief lull.

Also, Fury has great burst dps (far better than Arms.) Prehaps with the Shield Wall change (it won't require a shield in Mists) and the stuns being moved to a general talent tree that anyone can use, Fury will be a solid choice in MoP PvP. Giving us options.

TL: Wait for Mists beta, they won't change anything right now cause they won't give us all the information to make up-to-date suggestions. But overall I like the train of thought your on.

[kosechi]

every time i see a post complaining about warrior mobility i start laughing really really hard.

jk, charge stunned forever. jk, snared forever, jk, disarmed during cooldown burst, jk feared, jk, throwndown.


lets get this straight. warriors are not weak in pvp. rogues, ferals and casters in general to to fucking strong.

[deadgamedead]

every time i see a post complaining about warrior mobility i start laughing really really hard.

jk, charge stunned forever. jk, snared forever, jk, disarmed during cooldown burst, jk feared, jk, throwndown.


lets get this straight. warriors are not weak in pvp. rogues, ferals and casters in general to to fucking strong.

I cannot tell if you are using sarcasm or not. If all the other classes are "too strong" and pvp is based on classes competing relative to others, by default, that makes warriors weak.