Solution To PVP Warrior Burst...

[Thylacine]

I have discovered a flaw in your ideas though.

What about the pve warriors with the 2nd tier set? what are they gonna do w/o their poor inner rage?

I’m talking about after this expansion, when it no longer matters. Levelling gear will outstrip what raiders are currently wearing by level 82, so I doubt it’ll be an issue for very long. Plus, a small rework of a crappy set bonus wouldn’t be too much to ask. Let’s face it, Inner Rage is a failure; Blizzard wanted rid of Heroic Strike spam, then reintroduced it via this ability because they didn’t know what else to do with it.

But I know what to do with it.

Lose it.

[Stanton Biston]

This is something I don't understand.

People in this thread are complaining that warriors burst is nerfed because of colossus smash only taking away 50% of armor rather than 100%.

When you factor in all the other damage reductions and that the average amount of armor is around 30% damage reduction, the *net* amount gained would be somewhere around 8-10% once you factor in the multiplicative nature of damage reduction.

Hitting for 22k instead of 20k doesn't seem like a noticeable improvement compared to the burst of other classes.

Part of being constructive is complaining about the right things. Getting 100% CS wouldn't bring warriors back to being balanced or push them into OP territory. They'd just be better at killing paladins, DKs and other warriors.

[TJ]

100% CSmash was fucking retarded. I'd been saying that since Cata beta, and pretty much every Warrior with a shred of decency and intellect did as well. We told them, all the way since beta, that CSmash was going to be problematic - you're balancing Warrior DPS around it, and that window is only a few seconds wide, meaning burst will be high.

It's fine at 50%. It was fucking ridiculous for a Warrior to Throwdown-CSmash and global a fucking tank with 2 billion armor. Find Weakness needs to be nerfed into line, but I doubt that's gonna happen this season.[COLOR="red"]

I didnt say it wasnt.. think you misunderstood me. What i meant was after the Smash nerf patch they should have further nerfed warriors by changing recklessness so it couldnt be used with deadly calm, but instead they did that and OVERNERFED them with an 8% damage nerf. I dont mean the only change they should of made was the reck and left smash at 100%, hell no.

[assilley]

had to skip through a lot but it all sounds the same shit so w/e

Mobility... Ret says HI!! - My main is a ret paladin
Warriors have charge, leap, hamstring which costs 1 global
DKs have grip, spec specific slows
Druids pounce, skullbash minicharge, talented slow on mangle
Sub rogues step/sprint, crippling poisons
Shamans.. lolenhance?? Frost shock? Not familiar with enhance, i just know when I see one I burst one
RETS.. we get a shitty little sprint which only works if you are far enough away from your enemy and a dispellable freedom. Yes you say rets can spam cleanse.. yes we can to the point of oom and then what? If we want to slow a target then its at the trade off of gimping our dmg and so we rely on others to slow a target for us in order to keep up pressure. Can seal twist but SoJ is fucking pathetic imo and really needs a fix.
Warriors get a number of undispellable stuns and fears.. Rets get a stun and incapacitate which are on a 1min cd and dispellable... gg.. Our main burst is dispellable from a number of classes.. only druids, hunter and rogue? can dispell enrage effects (sorry if i missed a class) compared to mage, priest, shaman, hunter, prot war, lock pet? which can most of a pallys magic buffs.

Here is my opinion flat out and simple. IF BLIZZARD WAS TO GO AND GIVE EVERY CLASS EQUAL MOBILITY AND EQUAL BURST DAMAGE AND EQUAL SURVIVABILITY... WELL THEN WHERE IS THE FUN IN THAT???

You pick a class because of its playstyle. Rets offer pretty impressive off healing through selfless healer talents and rely on buffs from other classes to be powerful. The skill in arena is to make your comp work as effective as possible and to devise strats based on the situation. The winning team at blizzcon last year was holy pally, MM hunter and Unholy DK... People thought hunters were shit in arena but yet they picked a comp that wasnt popular to play and win the tournament because they adapted to their classes abilities and played it very very smart.

My words to you are simple, stop bitching about wanting buffs or fixes.. hey I would love some changes to rets i.e a talented slow to remove SoJ completely but is it going to happen.. probably not. Instead, how about going away and being creative and working out different strats to use with other comps and get as high as you can. Just because warriors are the least represented class in the top 5% doesnt mean its all doom and gloom. If you are a good player and know your shit, then you will make it work.

[tinkabela]

You pick a class because of its playstyle

Warrior's playstyle is : bring weak damage, no utility and complete dependence on your teammates

That is the point, which you completely missed

[SkillOverKill]

Warrior's playstyle is : bring weak damage, no utility and complete dependence on your teammates

That is the point, which you completely missed

Warrior damage is Not weak, your crazy if you think that's an issue. Warriors bring high burst during cooldowns, and some of the best pressure in the game if you choose your targets correctly in arenas.

If any of you warriors dispute this, I mostly highly recommend you ask around your server for one of the top pve dps warriors and ask them to teach you to dps. I know you probably think you know everything about mashing buttons, but seriously - pve'rs know how to punch - frequent use of sweeping strikes proper priority for pressure versus burst rotations will have a huge difference on your warrior damage output.

Warrior utility is about caster control, frequent pummels and stuns make warriors one of - if not the - best class at controlling enemy casters and healers (excluding mages because god can't stop a mage). For example, say you are fighting RMP or RLS, if the warrior gets on the enemy healer (or the lock in RLS) the rogue is likely to come into melee to peel them. The measure of a good warrior is how well they can keep on target and shutdown their casts while dealing damage - getting good cleave damage onto the rogue and caster while keeping the caster from casting will shutdown damage or put them behind on healing (or both).

Warrior's are not a bad class right now, they just have very little synergy in 3's at the moment and a high skill cap with a sharp learning curve - but last night in the midst of an otherwise flawless night versus mostly RMP's and RLS's (we play RPS, which is a shitty comp by comparison to either of these), we kept getting destroyed by a 2300 MMR arms/feral/hpal that shat on our MMR a bit. We ended up concluding that the team was being carried by the warrior, not the feral as we originally figured it must be = good warriors are really good.

[tinkabela]

Skill- you make good posts usually, but saying warrior pvp dps is anything like pve dps is just completely wrong.
PvE - stand there, hit target, bladestorm adds, cheer when gurthalak procs 5x at once on heroic yorsahj, and get 55k dps.
PvP - ?? absolutely nothing like pve.

I can get #2 dps in my10man guild, with some pvp offpieces and a couple LFR pieces to boot, just behind our heroic geared hunter, and ahead of our legendary geared mage (albeit he's not fantastic at dps), but this in absolutely no way translates to pvp.

Vs players with resilience, Warrior burst is not really "high during cooldowns", it's slightly above average. Without cooldowns it's below average.

You lost to kitty cleave..but how much of that was the feral? You say the team was carried by the warrior...well unless he was god, I really do doubt that. Personally I don't even see how you can lose to a kitty cleave team as RPS, just CC pally to force warrior down, disarm him so he can't shield wall and kill in a bomb with a psychic scream onto the feral to stop peels during bomb.

[Shaderas]

This is something I don't understand.

People in this thread are complaining that warriors burst is nerfed because of colossus smash only taking away 50% of armor rather than 100%.

When you factor in all the other damage reductions and that the average amount of armor is around 30% damage reduction, the *net* amount gained would be somewhere around 8-10% once you factor in the multiplicative nature of damage reduction.

Hitting for 22k instead of 20k doesn't seem like a noticeable improvement compared to the burst of other classes.

Part of being constructive is complaining about the right things. Getting 100% CS wouldn't bring warriors back to being balanced or push them into OP territory. They'd just be better at killing paladins, DKs and other warriors.

I don't play a warrior.. but I do remember the Armor penetration stuff from WotLK, so I'm guessing that as you approach 100% armor reduction it gets better and BETTER. So that's probably why they nerfed it.

What I don't understand, is why did they nerf it to 50%? Why didn't they try it at like 70 or 75% (Rogue's find weakness is 70%)... this would have made more sense to me. It seems Blizzard always swings the balance pendulum wildly from one side to the other...

[tinkabela]

I don't play a warrior.. but I do remember the Armor penetration stuff from WotLK, so I'm guessing that as you approach 100% armor reduction it gets better and BETTER. So that's probably why they nerfed it.

What I don't understand, is why did they nerf it to 50%? Why didn't they try it at like 70 or 75% (Rogue's find weakness is 70%)... this would have made more sense to me. It seems Blizzard always swings the balance pendulum wildly from one side to the other...

keeps people playing

case in point : I got fed up and rerolled a fun class

[Bane Falcon]

Warrior damage is Not weak, your crazy if you think that's an issue. Warriors bring high burst during cooldowns, and some of the best pressure in the game if you choose your targets correctly in arenas.

If any of you warriors dispute this, I mostly highly recommend you ask around your server for one of the top pve dps warriors and ask them to teach you to dps. I know you probably think you know everything about mashing buttons, but seriously - pve'rs know how to punch - frequent use of sweeping strikes proper priority for pressure versus burst rotations will have a huge difference on your warrior damage output.

Warrior utility is about caster control, frequent pummels and stuns make warriors one of - if not the - best class at controlling enemy casters and healers (excluding mages because god can't stop a mage). For example, say you are fighting RMP or RLS, if the warrior gets on the enemy healer (or the lock in RLS) the rogue is likely to come into melee to peel them. The measure of a good warrior is how well they can keep on target and shutdown their casts while dealing damage - getting good cleave damage onto the rogue and caster while keeping the caster from casting will shutdown damage or put them behind on healing (or both).

Warrior's are not a bad class right now, they just have very little synergy in 3's at the moment and a high skill cap with a sharp learning curve - but last night in the midst of an otherwise flawless night versus mostly RMP's and RLS's (we play RPS, which is a shitty comp by comparison to either of these), we kept getting destroyed by a 2300 MMR arms/feral/hpal that shat on our MMR a bit. We ended up concluding that the team was being carried by the warrior, not the feral as we originally figured it must be = good warriors are really good.

Re-read the thread, where many different people all agree that Warriors DO NOT have high burst during CDs. Not compared to the other melee classes that are currently being used in arenas. They bring pressure, sure. They're good against casters, as long as we have a disspell-bitch covering our ass. But that does NOT mean that Warriors have high burst. We have mediocre burst at best, currently, and even less so considering the other potential burst classes.

[SkillOverKill]

Re-read the thread, where many different people all agree that Warriors DO NOT have high burst during CDs. Not compared to the other melee classes that are currently being used in arenas. They bring pressure, sure. They're good against casters, as long as we have a disspell-bitch covering our ass. But that does NOT mean that Warriors have high burst. We have mediocre burst at best, currently, and even less so considering the other potential burst classes.

It really depends how you define burst though, I mean if you say "burst is only what you can do in 6 seconds" - then shadowdance or tiger's fury or a hunter with a full focus bar are more threatening than CS/BS, but CS/BS isn't your only burst, warriors have deadly calm and recklessness and the like to weave in as well. Now sure, popping everything at once deals maximal burst - but most good warriors I see will pair 2 cooldowns to fish out some defensive CD's, and then use the other burst cd's when the target is vulnerable again.

If you say "burst is only what you can do in 12 seconds" then Recklessness + CS is way better than Shadowdance or Berserk or hunter burst. If you say "burst is only what you can do in a global" then shatter combo is the most reliable massive GCD-burst, and Mind Blast+Death is probably the highest potential (but low odds). Sorry but the warriors I know, while they don't global people (and Shouldn't, don't compare yourself to RMP burst - it's OP) put out excellent burst during recklessness, some of the best I can think of from any class.

[TJ]

Re-read the thread, where many different people all agree that Warriors DO NOT have high burst during CDs. Not compared to the other melee classes that are currently being used in arenas. They bring pressure, sure. They're good against casters, as long as we have a disspell-bitch covering our ass. But that does NOT mean that Warriors have high burst. We have mediocre burst at best, currently, and even less so considering the other potential burst classes.

Smash + reck + trinket is actually really good burst, its not as good as dance in a bomb or a mages shatter etc but its still pretty good. Obviously it has the biggest disadvantage of all being 20% increased damage taken.. seriously wtfs up with that? they better remove it in mop because its pointless and stupid.

[FuryPride]

Warrior damage is Not weak, your crazy if you think that's an issue. Warriors bring high burst during cooldowns, and some of the best pressure in the game if you choose your targets correctly in arenas.

If any of you warriors dispute this, I mostly highly recommend you ask around your server for one of the top pve dps warriors and ask them to teach you to dps. I know you probably think you know everything about mashing buttons, but seriously - pve'rs know how to punch - frequent use of sweeping strikes proper priority for pressure versus burst rotations will have a huge difference on your warrior damage output.

Warrior utility is about caster control, frequent pummels and stuns make warriors one of - if not the - best class at controlling enemy casters and healers (excluding mages because god can't stop a mage). For example, say you are fighting RMP or RLS, if the warrior gets on the enemy healer (or the lock in RLS) the rogue is likely to come into melee to peel them. The measure of a good warrior is how well they can keep on target and shutdown their casts while dealing damage - getting good cleave damage onto the rogue and caster while keeping the caster from casting will shutdown damage or put them behind on healing (or both).

Warrior's are not a bad class right now, they just have very little synergy in 3's at the moment and a high skill cap with a sharp learning curve - but last night in the midst of an otherwise flawless night versus mostly RMP's and RLS's (we play RPS, which is a shitty comp by comparison to either of these), we kept getting destroyed by a 2300 MMR arms/feral/hpal that shat on our MMR a bit. We ended up concluding that the team was being carried by the warrior, not the feral as we originally figured it must be = good warriors are really good.

Ok you're right about the little synergy but that's another one of the reasons why our class sucks. We cannot compete with other classes simply due to us not providing enough, why would anyone take a warrior with a bloody stun and a fear then a rogue with stuns,blinds,smokebomb,insane burst,great survivabillity? A dk with a 100% automatic applying slow, caster protection , great burst , DECENT selfhealing and great synergy with other classes like warlocks (unholy that is.). You sir have never played a warrior before, you don't even know how frustrated you become as a warrior after playing a match at 2.4 perfectly with the perfect strategy and then enemy team wins because you cannot offer enough burst to bring down the DPS/Healer. While other classes just faceroll you to death. Don't even make me start about how bad warrior burst is in PVP. You're talking about PvE too, warriors are doing VERY well in PVE. But in pvp we cannot do well becauser WE HAVE NO PROTECTION FOR CASTERS, WE CAN BE KITED , WE HAVE HORRIBLE SUSTAINING DAMAGE BECAUSE OF LTTS AND AT LAST AND WORST , TERRIBLE MOBILITY.

[TJ]

Ok you're right about the little synergy but that's another one of the reasons why our class sucks. We cannot compete with other classes simply due to us not providing enough, why would anyone take a warrior with a bloody stun and a fear then a rogue with stuns,blinds,smokebomb,insane burst,great survivabillity? A dk with a 100% automatic applying slow, caster protection , great burst , DECENT selfhealing and great synergy with other classes like warlocks (unholy that is.). You sir have never played a warrior before, you don't even know how frustrated you become as a warrior after playing a match at 2.4 perfectly with the perfect strategy and then enemy team wins because you cannot offer enough burst to bring down the DPS/Healer. While other classes just faceroll you to death. Don't even make me start about how bad warrior burst is in PVP. You're talking about PvE too, warriors are doing VERY well in PVE. But in pvp we cannot do well becauser WE HAVE NO PROTECTION FOR CASTERS, WE CAN BE KITED , WE HAVE HORRIBLE SUSTAINING DAMAGE BECAUSE OF LTTS AND AT LAST AND WORST , TERRIBLE MOBILITY.

Dont forget having to sacrifice nearly all damage output to use a defensive cd (shield wall and spell reflect), whereas rogues can maintain ALL of their damage and go unchanged whilst using one. Heroic leap could be easily changed to make warriors back to being badass but nooope "wait till mop guys".

[Korgoth]

This is something I don't understand.

People in this thread are complaining that warriors burst is nerfed because of colossus smash only taking away 50% of armor rather than 100%.

When you factor in all the other damage reductions and that the average amount of armor is around 30% damage reduction, the *net* amount gained would be somewhere around 8-10% once you factor in the multiplicative nature of damage reduction.

Hitting for 22k instead of 20k doesn't seem like a noticeable improvement compared to the burst of other classes.

Part of being constructive is complaining about the right things. Getting 100% CS wouldn't bring warriors back to being balanced or push them into OP territory. They'd just be better at killing paladins, DKs and other warriors.

I think your math is flat out wrong. You also forgot Resto Shamans. Mail + Shield = Plate. Which are a part of over 50% of 2400+ Arena teams now if you believe the stats. Having that 100% C Smash would help with getting kills on the shaman, and since the other targets usually are rogue, lock; that was probably your best bet anyway.

Average Resto Shaman should have around 30k armor or 53.5% physical damage reduction. 50% of that, 15k armor you are looking at around I think 37% damage reduction. So going from 50% to 100% should mean going from 37% reduction to 0%! So If I am critting a resto shaman now for 20k (which is extremely rare btw almost unheard of, double trinkets and all that) then I would be critting for around 31k with 100% C Smash.

Now seeing how the last time I had 100% C Smash I was critting shamans for 22-25k with S9 gear, that amount of scaling seems about right.

Is 100% C Smash the proper buff for warriors? No. Is it one they could hotfix in a couple hours and would help immensely. YES! and id rather they just do something already instead of leaving it broke till MoP.

[SkillOverKill]

Ok you're right about the little synergy but that's another one of the reasons why our class sucks. We cannot compete with other classes simply due to us not providing enough, why would anyone take a warrior with a bloody stun and a fear then a rogue with stuns,blinds,smokebomb,insane burst,great survivabillity? A dk with a 100% automatic applying slow, caster protection , great burst , DECENT selfhealing and great synergy with other classes like warlocks (unholy that is.). You sir have never played a warrior before, you don't even know how frustrated you become as a warrior after playing a match at 2.4 perfectly with the perfect strategy and then enemy team wins because you cannot offer enough burst to bring down the DPS/Healer. While other classes just faceroll you to death. Don't even make me start about how bad warrior burst is in PVP. You're talking about PvE too, warriors are doing VERY well in PVE. But in pvp we cannot do well becauser WE HAVE NO PROTECTION FOR CASTERS, WE CAN BE KITED , WE HAVE HORRIBLE SUSTAINING DAMAGE BECAUSE OF LTTS AND AT LAST AND WORST , TERRIBLE MOBILITY.

My main was a warrior in vanilla, I played to 20 points short of gladiator on her in s1 (then rerolled a spriest in s2, and started arenas again just before s3), but it's true that I don't pvp on my warrior this expansion (she's my main pve alt though, as prot). Yea warrior's have some issues compared to rogues - but that's true for every class right now:
Do you play melee dps? Are you a subtlety rogue? Why should we bring you over a subtlety rogue?
Do you play caster dps? Are you a frost mage? Why should we bring you over a frost mage?
Do you play a healer? Are you a resto shaman? Why should we bring you over a resto shaman?
Now there are some variations on the above, like if you already have a rogue you should bring a feral instead of a second rogue - and if you already have a resto shaman you should use a disc priest, and if you already have a frost mage.... well... I guess just the two exceptions given that fmage/fmage/healer is going rank 1 this season.

Your protection against casters is your control of casters, your ability to shut them down is far better than the presence even of Anti-Magic shell, dks can kick - but warriors are reliably harder to juke than dks, in part because they have more than just pummel to interrupt casts. dps DK's are often the first choice for meleecleave to kill as well, they are more vulnerable than pretty much any other melee, a trade-off for their big anti-caster toolset. I'm sorry but if your sustained damage comes anywhere close to "horrible".. it's not the class, it's you - arms is one of the highest sustained dps specs right now even on single target pve fights - and as one of the least gear dependent specs it translates pve dps to pvp dps very well: warrior sustained damage is above average in pvp, it is certainly not horrible.

[Stanton Biston]

Average Resto Shaman should have around 30k armor or 53.5% physical damage reduction. 50% of that, 15k armor you are looking at around I think 37% damage reduction. So going from 50% to 100% should mean going from 37% reduction to 0%! So If I am critting a resto shaman now for 20k (which is extremely rare btw almost unheard of, double trinkets and all that) then I would be critting for around 31k with 100% C Smash.

I forgot that damage reduction due to armor doesn't scale linearly.

[Beefkow]

What blizzard can simply do is buff CS to 70% and leave 100% to pve, or honestly just bring back CS completely. There are lots of clothies/leather wearers these days and if your a plate, just deal with it by simply kiting the CS. Honestly if you think CS is a threat, get resilience (resilience fixes everything except pve DURP!!!) or just kite the cs.

Or blizzard can just bring back 20% weapon dmg and inner rage (the deadly calm/inner rage at same time should be fixed already) and just leave CS alone.... honestly i thought warriors were PERFECT in patch 4.1 but the 8% weapon dmg was 100% unnecessary.

Lastly, bring back spell reflect to 10 sec but not 5 sec, i know what a feels like to get reflected every 5 sec.. yes its pretty annoying.

Maybe buff shield wall...?

[Bane Falcon]

It really depends how you define burst though, I mean if you say "burst is only what you can do in 6 seconds" - then shadowdance or tiger's fury or a hunter with a full focus bar are more threatening than CS/BS, but CS/BS isn't your only burst, warriors have deadly calm and recklessness and the like to weave in as well. Now sure, popping everything at once deals maximal burst - but most good warriors I see will pair 2 cooldowns to fish out some defensive CD's, and then use the other burst cd's when the target is vulnerable again.

If you say "burst is only what you can do in 12 seconds" then Recklessness + CS is way better than Shadowdance or Berserk or hunter burst. If you say "burst is only what you can do in a global" then shatter combo is the most reliable massive GCD-burst, and Mind Blast+Death is probably the highest potential (but low odds). Sorry but the warriors I know, while they don't global people (and Shouldn't, don't compare yourself to RMP burst - it's OP) put out excellent burst during recklessness, some of the best I can think of from any class.

Personally (and I've been told I was wrong for trying to "balance" the game around 1v1, 2v2, or my personal experiences in a non-RBG/3s environment), I view my burst as being weak if I can't kill a healer with all of my CDs up. If they bubble, I understand. If they CC me, I understand. But if I'm completely unmitigated, blowing my entire load on them, and they can stay alive...? Yeah, my burst isn't strong. Not when there's several other classes/specs who can out-burst me.

[SkillOverKill]

Personally (and I've been told I was wrong for trying to "balance" the game around 1v1, 2v2, or my personal experiences in a non-RBG/3s environment), I view my burst as being weak if I can't kill a healer with all of my CDs up. If they bubble, I understand. If they CC me, I understand. But if I'm completely unmitigated, blowing my entire load on them, and they can stay alive...? Yeah, my burst isn't strong. Not when there's several other classes/specs who can out-burst me.

If you can solo any healer who doesn't have a cooldown active, your spec is absurdly overpowered - not even rogues and mages have that much damage right now and they're both broken - they can both kill healers pretty quick - but nobody should be gibbing healers as soon as they run out of cooldowns, why would anyone bring a healer if they could only survive for the first 6-10 seconds of a fight with just one dps on them, that's insane. Healers are balanced around not dying to a single dps quickly, That is balance - if you can't do that then good, your balanced - if you think a rogue/mage/feral can, then you are agreeing that they are OP but not that that is how all dps should be.

Seriously, think about the implications of what you just said for a second, if all dps kill all healers as soon as their cooldowns end, why bring a healer to pvp at all? You wouldn't, everyone would run triple dps - and given how important openers are in triple dps vs. triple dps fights, the only three classes allowed in pvp would be rogues, druids and mages... if you think your class sucks now, just wait till stealth is a pvp requirement!