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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    You see this in almost any online game that involves interacting with more than 1-2 people, it's not unique to any particular game. Stop singling out one group over any others.
    For the year or so I played the original Guild Wars I was very impressed by the quality of the community. Warhammer's wasnt bad, just very competitive. I played Aion at launch and I think 3/4 of the community was a bot so hard to gauge that one. Rift was as bad as WoW.

  2. #162
    Titan vindicatorx's Avatar
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    Not sure why you think it will be the best ever. It will contain a lot of the people who make WoW's community horrid. The thing is in GW2 you can make troll toons thats why I think the FFXI community was the best I have yet to see you had 1 character and sometimes a mule if you pulled some asshattery as a lot of the WoW kids do you would not get a invite to do anything and in FFXI you have to have a group to do anything beyond level 10. Like the one guy who wiped my guilds World dragon kill cause he managed to get claim of our mob at 1% that guy got booted from his guild, tried to make his own which once people saw what guild they were in would boot them from a group so they would leave his guild for one that had a good reputation. He eventually joined the goldseller guild as they were the only people who would touch him. I think he quit like 2 months later. Point of the story in FFXI there were consequences for your actions.

  3. #163
    [QUOTE=YouMadBrosky;15354872]I also agree with you 100%. Forums like Guild Wars 2 Guru are filled with losers with no lifes. Its a game that hasn't even been released yet and some people LIVE on those forums, its pretty pathetic. And if you dont adhere to what they want, they go running to the forum mods to have you kicked off the forums for upsetting them. And the forums mods are not any better. No life losers who volunteer to mod forums all day??? Ummm ya


    They just have a strict system there thus why people post here on champ or other forums about gw2. BTW Kouki had a constructive post that I would not see from a GW2guru poster for 1. and 2 If you prefer horrible post such as the one you aimed at kouki. find a different forum to troll cause its not welcomed here. If you think the community is bad in gw2.you don't know. no ones knows its just opinions or thoughts from the news given from Anet. so please stop crying in your pancakes about how you want a jerk community and just don't play gw2 cause you won't find much welcome if you decide to play GW2.
    Last edited by Noodlebun; 2012-02-06 at 06:18 AM.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    You see this in almost any online game that involves interacting with more than 1-2 people, it's not unique to any particular game. Stop singling out one group over any others.
    Ofcourse these groups are present in every single MMO out there but my point is that unlike WoW, they're minorities. In WoW, these groups are the community.
    I've got to say I have the same experience as General Typhus, with the one exception that the community in Aion were behaving pretty bad, mostly due to all the people in generalchat spamming WoW vs Aion comparisons and how they disliked Aion because X was present in WoW and not in Aion.

    As I said however, lets see these players in a different setting, one that actually inspires cooperation.

  5. #165
    High Overlord Primal Zed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    Ofcourse these groups are present in every single MMO out there but my point is that unlike WoW, they're minorities. In WoW, these groups are the community.
    I don't think they are the majority in WoW. It's just that WoW has greater number of people to begin with, and you're more apt to take notice of a person who's being a troll or similar. You can be in a 5 man group and one person in that will be obnoxious, exploit loopholes, and throw his weight around. Your takeaway from that won't be "Man, those three people in that group were really helpful and well behaved, it's too bad that one person ruined it for all four of us." It will be "Man, why are people in this game such jerks?"

    This is especially poignant when it's in general chat, like you described - you never think to compare the number of people being obnoxious in the public chat to the number of people in the zone.

    Sorry to disagree with you, DiamondDust, but as demonstrated in this thraed, the overall impression of a very large community isn't going to be how many well-behaved people there are, it will be how the loud, poorly behaved people are dealt with.

    edit:
    It's also a self-propagating problem as the size of the community grows. If one person with bad inclinations see another person engaged in it, the first will be encouraged. Say one in every fifty members of a given community think 'Anal ___' spam is funny. If there's fifty people online, and only one 'Anal' spam person, he'll do it on occasion but without anyone else participating he'll get bored pretty quickly. If there's one hundred people online, and two 'Anal' spam people, they'll feed off each other. If there's 150 people online, and three 'Anal' spam people....well, you see where I'm going with this. Then, there's going to be some in that other 98% that decide "well, everyone else is doing it, I might have some fun doing it as well." (Of course, 'everyone else' is not doing it, but as in my previous point it will generally seem that way.)

    It doesn't matter how many nice people there are. It matters how the moderators deal with the people who aren't so nice, and where they set the bar.
    Last edited by Primal Zed; 2012-02-06 at 02:10 PM.
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  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    Ofcourse these groups are present in every single MMO out there but my point is that unlike WoW, they're minorities. In WoW, these groups are the community.
    I've got to say I have the same experience as General Typhus, with the one exception that the community in Aion were behaving pretty bad, mostly due to all the people in generalchat spamming WoW vs Aion comparisons and how they disliked Aion because X was present in WoW and not in Aion.

    As I said however, lets see these players in a different setting, one that actually inspires cooperation.
    Hmmm yes I'll admit you just reminded me that for the ~2 weeks I played Aion I had the general chat channels turned off. That was an abomination.

  7. #167
    The Lightbringer jvbastel's Avatar
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    Remember that a good community starts with yourself. If, every time someone meets a new player, the first thing players think is "damn another asshole stealing my kills", of course the community won't be great. When playing GW2, my goal will be to just go with the flow, and if I meet someone, or a group of people, try to just group up as much as I can, running events together.

    I'm curious if Anet's ideas of bringing players together will really help in that matter.
    Monk, I need a monk!!!

  8. #168
    Stood in the Fire MissCleo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Zed View Post
    I don't think they are the majority in WoW. It's just that WoW has greater number of people to begin with, and you're more apt to take notice of a person who's being a troll or similar. You can be in a 5 man group and one person in that will be obnoxious, exploit loopholes, and throw his weight around. Your takeaway from that won't be "Man, those three people in that group were really helpful and well behaved, it's too bad that one person ruined it for all four of us." It will be "Man, why are people in this game such jerks?"

    This is especially poignant when it's in general chat, like you described - you never think to compare the number of people being obnoxious in the public chat to the number of people in the zone.

    Sorry to disagree with you, DiamondDust, but as demonstrated in this thraed, the overall impression of a very large community isn't going to be how many well-behaved people there are, it will be how the loud, poorly behaved people are dealt with.

    edit:
    It's also a self-propagating problem as the size of the community grows. If one person with bad inclinations see another person engaged in it, the first will be encouraged. Say one in every fifty members of a given community think 'Anal ___' spam is funny. If there's fifty people online, and only one 'Anal' spam person, he'll do it on occasion but without anyone else participating he'll get bored pretty quickly. If there's one hundred people online, and two 'Anal' spam people, they'll feed off each other. If there's 150 people online, and three 'Anal' spam people....well, you see where I'm going with this. Then, there's going to be some in that other 98% that decide "well, everyone else is doing it, I might have some fun doing it as well." (Of course, 'everyone else' is not doing it, but as in my previous point it will generally seem that way.)

    It doesn't matter how many nice people there are. It matters how the moderators deal with the people who aren't so nice, and where they set the bar.
    You make some very good points here, and aside from the few trolls in this thread (and the fact that it was probably created as a troll thread in the first place), the discussion has been interesting and I think there's something to learn from it.

    There are basically two ways to foster a good community, and these parallel the two ways to foster health in any organism or dynamic system - they are preventative measures (before the fact) and curative measures (after the fact). Both ArenaNet and individual players themselves are responsible for the successful execution of both of these.

    ArenaNet is trying to prevent some of the leading causes of bad community in an MMORPG setting through a number of design points. We all know what these are, as they've been mentioned quite a bit in this and other threads. But it's also each player's responsibility to help prevent the community from festering by exemplifying -slash- modeling the types of behavior they want to see out of others. Call it the Golden Rule, call it setting a good example, call it "being the change you want to see," or any other cliché you want, it's not naive if you tailor your expectations correctly. It would be unrealistic to expect that acting like a nice person in-game will cause everyone around you to adopt the same mentality. However, under the right conditions, if enough people make an effort, it might have a far-reaching effect on the community without people even realizing it's happening. It's about shaping the expectations of the community a little bit at a time. In some MMOs, being selfish is rewarded - not purposefully, but as a side-effect of game design. If Guild Wars 2 works as advertised, acting selfish will not be incentivized. The conditions of the game environment might just be right for the community to foster good behavior and cooperative play.

    That said, there will still be people who don't get along, there will still be fights amongst otherwise well-intentioned and good-natured people in the community, and there will still be "bad apples" who just get a kick out of trolling people for the sake of trolling people, given the freedom and anonymity the internet provides. When it comes to the vocal minority who may hinder the enjoyment of the game for the mostly benevolent majority, the preventive measures put in place by ArenaNet and encouraged by cooperative players won't be enough. What matters in this case is the actions taken in response, from the moderators/developers and from the community members troubled by this behavior. Game Masters and Moderators have to be active, and sensitive to potential issues, but it is up to players to quash any harassment or trolling as well. If you don't like it, ignore it. Bad behavior can't thrive in a vacuum, and won't live long without being fed. If it's still a problem, quietly report the issue to those moderating the game and go on your way.

    This, by the way, is the response usually given by Blizzard Blues when players complain about trolling/harassment, but they give it for a reason. Some people aren't satisfied with this answer, but unfortunately that's probably because it's a relatively small bandage on what has become a gaping wound in WoW. It might be a case of "too little, too late" for that game's community - the problem is now systemic. However, it becomes a much more realistic solution if it's paired with good preventative care, and carried out in an environment that discourages dickish behavior in the first place.

    Will the community in Guild Wars 2 be perfect? No, of course not - that is a pipe dream, and opinions on what exactly constitutes a "perfect" community will differ from person to person anyhow. Might it be a decent community, perhaps better than other MMORPGs, from which these complaints about the game community came in the first place? That, I think, is possible - but only if ArenaNet delivers on their end, and we as players put forth the effort on ours.
    Last edited by MissCleo; 2012-02-06 at 04:27 PM.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    Ofcourse these groups are present in every single MMO out there but my point is that unlike WoW, they're minorities. In WoW, these groups are the community.
    This has got to be the most ridiculous statement I've read in a long time. You can't possibly be serious, can you?

    Maybe YOU attract these types of people, but I rarely, if ever, see any of this in WOW. WOW's community is not any worse than any other internet community. Maybe YOUR personal community on WOW is/was bad - but that has more to do with YOU and less to do with WOW.

  10. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Borzo View Post
    This has got to be the most ridiculous statement I've read in a long time. You can't possibly be serious, can you?

    Maybe YOU attract these types of people, but I rarely, if ever, see any of this in WOW. WOW's community is not any worse than any other internet community. Maybe YOUR personal community on WOW is/was bad - but that has more to do with YOU and less to do with WOW.
    I'm happy that you've found a server on WoW that differs from the norm, unfortunately I think you're being dishonest when you claim that you rarely see any people in WoW behaving poorly through any of the following:
    Plain ignorance
    Spamming the general chat, preferably even after being asked to stop
    Acting elitist*
    Extreme hostility towards other games**


    *Now this is my favourite. In general the consensus among players in the battlegroups I've played in has been that if person A has killed boss X before, then person B should have learned the fight before attempting the boss the first time, because otherwise this person is 'bad'.

    ** Try it, hop onto your glorified server and tell people you enjoy another game as much as or more than WoW, observe the results.

    Obviously it could just be me, but I'd rather turn it around and claim that you are most likely just delusional.

  11. #171
    The Lightbringer Kouki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    So people in WoW are all the way through behaving well in the game? They're not elitist and refuse to take advice? They do not spam the generalchat/tradechat with complete and utter junk and they do not relocate to every single subforum bashing away at other games?
    The community in WoW has changed alot and it have not been changing for the better.
    Personally I actually think the community got worse in WoW when they introduced cross-realm LFD, obviously not the only reason but simply because that allowed the more obnoxious players more leaway with their poor behavior. Before the introduction of x-realm LFD you would usually find some people on the server that behaved poorly or just refused to listen. They'd rarely however get to join a group ever again but that's all gone now and people are simply worse than ever.

    The phenomena is fairly limited to WoW tho, you won't see the same kinda poor ranting going on in generalchats of Daoc, Lotro, Rift, Swtor, AoC or GW1, yes there are the occasional bad eggs but hey, they get cut off fairly quickly. But if they want to join, hey bring them along.. after all, GW2 encourages cooperation far more than WoW does.
    Actually your right on the money on the problem.

    Pre LFD/LFR You had to play by making your own group "yes it was tedious" but to make sure you never had to /trade too often you made friends with people on your server, and later used them for more runs raids or they invited you, Community was built on that, and blacklists where everyone on the server knew who the ninja was.

    In Cross realm, there is more anonymity and not enough ignore slots or friend slots or at the moment of this post a non real id cross server friend system.
    Some people actually risk real names to make cross server friends, they want to make friends and a community.

    When LFD Came to Rift it killed that community too, and faster then wow.

    LFD Can't Be implemented except in server only on guildwars2, as other servers are your enemy why would you want to help them?

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Bongomadness View Post
    If there is 1 thing ive learnt from this thread is that people that do play swtor are hated by a few of the mmo-champion gw2 fanbase.
    Completely warranted, judging by the behavior of the vast majority of TOR fans. And not necessarily by the GW2 fanbase, more like hated by every fanbase due to their blind loyalty and devotion to the great messiah Bioware, the feeling that opinion = fact (only their opinions, mind you, which are always correct), and no game/developer can touch the mighty Star Wars IP or it's all-powerful carboncopy-ness. I'm not saying you in particular are one, or were even acting like that, but the responses have not been out of hand IMO, since it appeared like you might be the type to try and lift one game by bashing another.

    It seems to me that this thread has run its course, hasn't even been remotely constructive for at least the last 6 pages. It's not even an issue with a particular community, whether we're talking about WoW, GW1, SW:TOR, Rift, etc., it's that the internet community at large has become a giant steaming pile of whiny shit. Although with that said, Xbox live/LoL/HoN's are arguably worse than most.

    Quote Originally Posted by jvbastel View Post
    Remember that a good community starts with yourself. If, every time someone meets a new player, the first thing players think is "damn another asshole stealing my kills", of course the community won't be great. When playing GW2, my goal will be to just go with the flow, and if I meet someone, or a group of people, try to just group up as much as I can, running events together.

    I'm curious if Anet's ideas of bringing players together will really help in that matter.
    I've often wondered this as well, seeing as how they're really designing the mechanics of the entire game around "I want to have others around" in place of "asshole is gonna steal my loot/kills." Unfortunately, here's how I see it: "Make it troll proof, they invent a better troll."
    Last edited by Drakhar; 2012-02-06 at 05:52 PM.

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    I'm happy that you've found a server on WoW that differs from the norm, unfortunately I think you're being dishonest when you claim that you rarely see any people in WoW behaving poorly through any of the following:
    Plain ignorance
    Spamming the general chat, preferably even after being asked to stop
    Acting elitist*
    Extreme hostility towards other games**


    *Now this is my favourite. In general the consensus among players in the battlegroups I've played in has been that if person A has killed boss X before, then person B should have learned the fight before attempting the boss the first time, because otherwise this person is 'bad'.

    ** Try it, hop onto your glorified server and tell people you enjoy another game as much as or more than WoW, observe the results.

    Obviously it could just be me, but I'd rather turn it around and claim that you are most likely just delusional.


    I rarely see it. I do see it sometimes, yes you're right... but I see it sometimes in other games. I see it less in SWTOR, but only because people are new... in new games people tend to help each other more, and make enemies less (since they have no friends yet).

    But I have to say that I think it's completely ludicrous to claim WOW is somehow worse than other communities. Or to go as far as you did, and claim that the ENTIRE community is like that. How the hell would you know... do you personally know the 5-10 million players that play WOW? Of course you don't, but you're judging the ENTIRE playerbase based on what... 30 people you've seen spam general chat and the forums? That's hardly fair, nor statistically significant. For every 30 people that spam the forums/general/trade you have 3000 who don't. But if you don't pay attention to the quieter members, you might think that the 30 are the majority, when they are not.

    A video game's online community improves DRASTICALLY just by ignoring the 10 loudest offenders. I did it in SWTOR, and my perception of the community went from 1/5 to 5/5!

  14. #174
    The Lightbringer Kouki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    Completely warranted, judging by the behavior of the vast majority of TOR fans. And not necessarily by the GW2 fanbase, more like hated by every fanbase due to their blind loyalty and devotion to the great messiah Bioware, the feeling that opinion = fact (only their opinions, mind you, which are always correct), and no game/developer can touch the mighty Star Wars IP or it's all-powerful carboncopy-ness.

    It seems to me that this thread has run its course, hasn't even been remotely constructive for at least the last 6 pages. It's not even an issue with a particular community, whether we're talking about WoW, GW1, SW:TOR, Rift, etc., it's that the internet community at large has become a giant steaming pile of whiny shit. Although with that said, Xbox live/LoL/HoN's are arguably worse than most.
    Well i Believe the issue with all the current mmo's is the carbon copy design they all have the same fundamental issues that create the bad community in the first place.

    Many free mmo's do not experience as many bots hackers gold sellers or dicks.
    Many of these games get that part by being cheap, your not feeling entitlement and because they are built on the community.

    Guildwars2 Is sorta free.
    Guildwars2 also has functions in place to guide the community to work together they set you up to be agressive only to other servers then your own.
    Within your server in pve and pvp you know everyone and want to help them anyway you can its no different then my cities hockey team is better than yours.

    So ultimately i think the community will be better at least enough to not have a headache over it.

    P.S i want to stress i dont care about anal this or chuck norris that, that is actually a postitive thing its people talking and not swearing or fighting about things but just cracking a joke or two, its preferable to swearing and elitism.

  15. #175
    Stood in the Fire MissCleo's Avatar
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    I think Borzo's posts bring up a good point here - one of the points Primal Zed was making: People usually seem to focus on the negative, or remember their bad experiences with people in-game more often than their neutral or maybe even slightly friendly interactions. If someone really goes out of their way to be nice, that might stick with you, but that sort of reinforces the point - the extreme ends of the behavior spectrum are more noticeable/memorable.

    Don't let a few bad apples spoil the bunch. If you focus on negative behavior, you are probably more likely to respond to negative behavior, and that doesn't always help. Sometimes it makes the situation worse, and things can spiral out of control quickly. If you ignore the assholes or report them without directly responding to them, and instead focus on and respond to the people who are nice to you, the community won't only seem better to you, you'll be actively working to improve the community by discouraging the bad while encouraging the good.

  16. #176
    OP I agree 100%... cause you are one of the people that will make that community suck. I can tell that by reading your posts, I mean, you knew this thread was going to be like it is now, and denying that would be just childish. By the way, glad you got banned.-

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moinaldo View Post
    OP I agree 100%... cause you are one of the people that will make that community suck. I can tell that by reading your posts, I mean, you knew this thread was going to be like it is now, and denying that would be just childish. By the way, glad you got banned.-
    Due to the post he made on top of page 9 and yea we dont need that kind around, they only bring the community down

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Drakhar View Post
    Unfortunately, here's how I see it: "Make it troll proof, they invent a better troll."
    I totally disagree. Most "trolls" are labelled 'cause they're self-serving, instead of working with others. Kill-stealing, ninja-looting, etc etc.

    As a general rule of human (internet) behavior, most people choose personal gain over helping others.

    VERY FEW people sacrifice personal gain simply to grief others, though.

    The motivation behind "bad players" is not to ruin other people's days, but simply to look out for themselves.

    If GW2 fixes this by increasing rewards for team play, instead of decreasing it, then 99% of the problems in these games will be removed because: Personal gain AND helping others will coincide!!

  19. #179
    Pandaren Monk
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    Any rationally thinking person wouldn't think otherwise... obviously the "community" of any game is as bad as the next one. But I will quote TotalBiscuit: "There are no "community" spanning an entire game. There are just people playing the game. Communities are born within the games by likeminded players."

    If you think assholes won't play GW2, that there is some kind of barrier that stops them from playing you're in for a reality check.

  20. #180
    The Lightbringer Hanto's Avatar
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    I can imagine that, for a while, the GW2 community will be a lot like how Rift's and SWTOR's has begun: full of tards telling each other to go back to WoW and shouting Your Momma jokes and calling one another kids. It may be on a higher scale as well since it does not require a subscription to play, which means the trolls don't have to pay to have fun.

    I'm hoping that after a while the community will settle down and people will fall into their own way of handling the game. I vaguely remember Rift's community mellowing out shortly before I quit, SWTOR's should reach that plateau soon since all the short-term subbers will be falling off. Here's hoping GW2's community doesn't stay full of em.

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