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  1. #1

    How can there be no trinity?

    Isn't the concept of the trinity simply a necessity to overcome content more than it is a design decision?

    Unless I'm completely mistaken there is still going to be someone who takes the hits of the main enemy or at the very least maintains the focus of the enemy to keep them from slaughtering everyone else.
    There is still going to be one or more people involved in keep that person and the rest of the group alive.
    Finally there will be DPS done to the enemy to kill it.

    That's the trinity in a nutshell. In traditional MMO's there is a Tank, Healer, and DPS to fill those roles. Each of those people are focused on their single task. Now in reality we know that each of those people CAN do more than just their one task.

    Restro Priest can cast damage spells, tanks can use DPS equipment, and healers can self-heal to tank some times. The point is none of those things are the ideal job for those given classes and specs. In fact many of these classes do have the ability to do 1, 2 or all 3 of these roles when they solo, but in a raid environment its about maximizing your role in the group.

    Now in a non-trinity situation maybe it isn't 1 person that is always healing, but you will have someone who's responsibility it is to keep your group alive and someone to do DPS, ect. So why would GW2 be any different in the sense that they will want particular spec/skill combinations to fulfill the role you are bringing to the group. Even if you hybridized the roles such that one person cannot do all the healing for the group you will still have a set of people responsible for filling that role.

    So instead of doing heal heal heal heal during the fight you'll do heal, dps, tank, heal, dps, tank...except it will require an even higher level of skill because now instead of 1 person keeping track of 1 thing you have everything trying to keep try of everything.

    Tell me I'm wrong...because that's the way it looks to me...

  2. #2
    Probably somthing similar as 5 death knights doing ramparts.

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans Snow White's Avatar
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    Watch this:

  4. #4
    Why are ppl so obsessed with labeling things. a) There is no simple agro. You don't have tanks who hold mobs by default or can command mobs to attack them with a press of a button. b) There are no dedicated healers. You can't spam one healing spell after another.

    So what exactly are we talking about. Hard trinity known from classic MMOs is about having one guy who tanks everything, having one guy who heals everything and then some peeps who do dps.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  5. #5
    Herald of the Titans
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    so basically all the classes are some kind of hybrid between tank dps and heal and they can swap to each role incombat to their liking...

    doesnt this mean that gw2 is still using the trinity? giving every class the ability to be any of the 3 doesnt mean the trinity has been removed.. at least in my book

  6. #6
    Pandaren Monk GeordieMagpie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koudbiertje View Post
    Probably somthing similar as 5 death knights doing ramparts.
    ..OH HELL YEAH, thanks for reminding me, obviously it'll have a bit more responsibility, but..that's not a half bad idea. :P
    Howay the lads!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Why are ppl so obsessed with labeling things. a) There is no simple agro. You don't have tanks who hold mobs by default or can command mobs to attack them with a press of a button. b) There are no dedicated healers. You can't spam one healing spell after another.

    So what exactly are we talking about. Hard trinity known from classic MMOs is about having one guy who tanks everything, having one guy who heals everything and then some peeps who do dps.
    Exactly. GW2 has a soft trinity, but there is also much focus placed on controlling the battlefield. In the GW2 system, players are ultimately responsible for their own survival, but everyone will have numerous ways to help support the group as a whole.

  8. #8
    I've been kinda following GW2 on and off a bit, I never played the first one, but the video above sold it.
    100% sold it to me. I may not buy it day one, but I will buy it, and I will play it.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    Why are ppl so obsessed with labeling things. a) There is no simple agro. You don't have tanks who hold mobs by default or can command mobs to attack them with a press of a button. b) There are no dedicated healers. You can't spam one healing spell after another.

    So what exactly are we talking about. Hard trinity known from classic MMOs is about having one guy who tanks everything, having one guy who heals everything and then some peeps who do dps.
    This is not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying there are PEOPLE defined as tanks, there could be more than 1, but their job is going to be to pick up mobs and prevent them from killing people who cannot take hits. Unless you are saying everyone can take hits

    There is going to be someone who is involved in keeping people alive.

    There is going to be someone who is involved in killing mobs.

    Also I watched that video...they never said that NO one is going to have to heal, SOMEONE will it just sounds like ANYONE can fill that role. It doesn't mean that you don't have a healer in the group, it just means you don't have to have the SAME healer every time. So what is going to prevent all the arguments about who's going to fill what role? Again all it seems to be is they are blurring the lines such that people will have to sort out the system again.

    It doesn't seem like there isn't going to be any healers, tanks, or dps...they just aren't fixed into their roles.

    Also you are saying that you can actually switch abilities in combat? If that's the case how is it not going to be required to skill dance or some other convoluted thing to maximize your role?

    I really hope this doesn't descend into people calling each other trolls because I haven't found a single civil discourse on how this non-trinity system ACTUALLY works...just a lot of speculation about how they say its supposed to work.

  10. #10
    There is a video floating around the interwebs of a 5 man attempt at a dungeon... with 5 elementals. Basically, when one elemental got hit, he would instantly switch to earth, and just provide armour to himself and others, than the monsters focus switched to another, and that elemental switched to earth while the other switched to water and put down some healing spells on the ground that also buffed the damage of the other elementals, who were dodging out of the way of the monsters aoe attacks...

    It all comes to awareness... yes there is a soft trinity, but it all comes down to what do YOU like to play - if you die, that is your own damn fault... you didn't heal yourself or get out of the way with a dodge - I will be playing the guardian (sword and shield and 2h hammer), so I will probably be focused on dps and blinding people while pushing other mobs away - but if i wanted i can switch my weapons on a fly and switch to sword just for aoe damage, or maybe a stave for some awesome denial... the possibilities are awesome and endless.

    edit: TLDR - if you die it is always your fault, not a healers, not a tank, yours. You can heal yourself, heal others, deny places, do damage, and avoid damage by rolling. YOU HEAL YOURSELF, or you walk into a healing circle placed by your fellows (which everyone can do). Bottom line, you fail because you fail not someone else
    Last edited by Cassandrea; 2012-02-06 at 10:31 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Snow White View Post
    Watch this:
    Seems like they are subscribing to purely DPS ideals. For instance; I enjoy playing a pure healer and I know people who only like to tank. What about that kind of people?

  12. #12
    well, since a lot of concrete crunch isn't out yet, its all going to be speculation until beta comes out, I guess.

    And if there is going to need to be skill dancing to maximize your role, why is that bad? That sounds awesome to me. However, I hope it doesn't end up like arms warrior stance dancing that just gets macro'd into moves. I hope you have to thinking about it mid fight, choose it tactically, and I hope it is a smooth transition.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    This is not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying there are PEOPLE defined as tanks, there could be more than 1, but their job is going to be to pick up mobs and prevent them from killing people who cannot take hits. Unless you are saying everyone can take hits

    There is going to be someone who is involved in keeping people alive.

    There is going to be someone who is involved in killing mobs.

    Also I watched that video...they never said that NO one is going to have to heal, SOMEONE will it just sounds like ANYONE can fill that role. It doesn't mean that you don't have a healer in the group, it just means you don't have to have the SAME healer every time. So what is going to prevent all the arguments about who's going to fill what role? Again all it seems to be is they are blurring the lines such that people will have to sort out the system again.

    It doesn't seem like there isn't going to be any healers, tanks, or dps...they just aren't fixed into their roles.

    Also you are saying that you can actually switch abilities in combat? If that's the case how is it not going to be required to skill dance or some other convoluted thing to maximize your role?

    I really hope this doesn't descend into people calling each other trolls because I haven't found a single civil discourse on how this non-trinity system ACTUALLY works...just a lot of speculation about how they say its supposed to work.
    As for the "person who has to pick up the mobs" part, from everything we've been shown every CAN take at least a few hits before needing to get away, so it's logical that it may be a necessity for the clothie to go in and grab a guy. That being said though, a lot of it is properly controlling/kiting mobs and avoiding damage so that you don't NEED to take the hits. That's a group effort, not just an individual.

    As for the "someone involved in keeping people alive", that's a mixture of the group effectively controlling the mobs, players effectively using their own personal heals, and maybe 1-2 players throwing out support heals. There aren't any spammable heals in the game, and there are no targeted ones. You might get an elementalist swapping into water to toss out a weak AoE heal or a guardian busting a symbol to temporarily improve group regen, but no individual will be able to do any kind of significant amount of group healing. Again, it's a team effort to keep everyone alive.

    As for the "someone involved in killing mobs", that's the entire group. The entire group is actively doing something to the mobs, either damage or control based, to kill them.

    There aren't any traditional tanks/healers because the system they have doesn't support it. Instead, if you still need to toss the labels in there, imagine the group as a whole fulfilling both roles, with no individual being able to do so by themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Disis View Post
    Seems like they are subscribing to purely DPS ideals. For instance; I enjoy playing a pure healer and I know people who only like to tank. What about that kind of people?
    There are a lot of healers I know who enjoy playing "support" roles, and healing is the closest thing in most games to "support", so they can effectively transition over, same thing with tanks and controlling ect.

    But if all you want to do is tank or heal, then this game isn't for you. It's not supposed to appeal to everyone.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandrea View Post
    There is a video floating around the interwebs of a 5 man attempt at a dungeon... with 5 elementals. Basically, when one elemental got hit, he would instantly switch to earth, and just provide armour to himself and others, than the monsters focus switched to another, and that elemental switched to earth while the other switched to water and put down some healing spells on the ground that also buffed the damage of the other elementals, who were dodging out of the way of the monsters aoe attacks...
    I saw those videos...again you CAN run dungeons with all DK's, but that doesn't mean that its ideal or fun. So maybe in GW2 you can run as 5 of anything, but how does that not make each person feel like they have no significant value in the party? I mean if I can just as easily be replaced by any random then what makes anyone loyal to me? Then I'm even more dependent on the whims of other people even more than I was before. Not to mention it will be even harder for you to have any clue if I'm good or not.

    People complain about lack of skill right now, I can't imagine how any casual is going to be able to wrap their heads about something like this. Maybe that's a good thing for the skilled players, but I think its going to be a severe hinderence to the average player. Or as I said its going to be so easy that your role won't really matter much.

  15. #15
    I think the answer is not that there is no trinity as such, but that no-one is locked into their role in the trinity. You don't go into an encounter with 2 healers 2 tanks and 6 dps, more that you go into an encounter with 10 players that will adapt as needed.

    That's not to say that there is no tank or damage dealers or healers, but from what I understand it's more fluid than the kind of fixed roles you have currently.

    Also from the video it seems like the fun in playing is more about working symbiotically to beat bosses rather than having the healer stare at health bars, the dps focus on their rotations and avoiding mechanics, and the tank focusing on mitigating damage/avoiding.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    This is not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying there are PEOPLE defined as tanks, there could be more than 1, but their job is going to be to pick up mobs and prevent them from killing people who cannot take hits. Unless you are saying everyone can take hits

    There is going to be someone who is involved in keeping people alive.

    There is going to be someone who is involved in killing mobs.

    Also I watched that video...they never said that NO one is going to have to heal, SOMEONE will it just sounds like ANYONE can fill that role. It doesn't mean that you don't have a healer in the group, it just means you don't have to have the SAME healer every time. So what is going to prevent all the arguments about who's going to fill what role? Again all it seems to be is they are blurring the lines such that people will have to sort out the system again.

    It doesn't seem like there isn't going to be any healers, tanks, or dps...they just aren't fixed into their roles.

    Also you are saying that you can actually switch abilities in combat? If that's the case how is it not going to be required to skill dance or some other convoluted thing to maximize your role?

    I really hope this doesn't descend into people calling each other trolls because I haven't found a single civil discourse on how this non-trinity system ACTUALLY works...just a lot of speculation about how they say its supposed to work.
    I don't get what is your point. There will be specs that are better at soaking damage, there will be specs that are better at dealing damage, there will be specs that are better at supporting others. There will be jobs to be done when fighting in group. That are fundamentals of action based rpg combat.

    The important thing is you will be able to take ANYONE. How often do you see guildmates struggling to find the rigid tank-dps-heal class setup for group ? Nothing worse than when 4-5 friends want to do something together, but can't because they have classes with wrong roles.

    In GW2 everyone is hybrid and you can switch weap sets in fight which will effectively change you from bruiser to support or pure dps. Basically for group combat in GW2 what you need are ppl who want to play together ... not ppl who have classes that can fill these 3 roles and are in the right ratio of tanks:heals:dps.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  17. #17
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    There's plenty of online games without a trinity in it. Vindictus, for example, excels at this, even if much of the game isn't that great.

    If I can find an online game that's as polished at WoW and does away with the trinity, I'll gladly play it. I always hated the notion of tanks and taunting. We're adventurers. We don't go out adventuring with the plan to just heal allies. That's weird and unorthodox. Even D&D wasn't like that, originally.

    I imagine it would be easier to balance PvP in a game that doesn't have some ridiculous holy trinity, as EVERY class would have to be designed with DPS, survival, and support in mind. Rather than a DPS class ending up being super squishy because the company is trying desperately to prevent them from becoming tanks.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  18. #18
    In GW2 the 5man dungeons are the elite group content really, so any random player isn't really going to be looking to do them. You'll need a decent group of players that can communicate with each other, you may not be tanking and healing like the traditional MMO but you now need to master damage and control by yourself. You're no longer relying on a tank or healer to correct you mistakes or group mistakes.

    It will be easy to tell who's good from who's bad, simply by looking at the damage people take. If people are taking alot of damage they're not utilizing their abilities or dodge.

  19. #19
    What worries me more about a lack of threat table etc. is how mobs will move and how melee players will be at a disadvantage. If I'm in a group of 5 people all fighting at different ranges spread out around a room, won't the enemy just run around like mad trying to hit everyone? Because I've played melee classes in WoW and trying to keep up with an unpredictable NPC that isn't being tanked properly is just hell.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    Isn't the concept of the trinity simply a necessity to overcome content more than it is a design decision?
    Nope. Not at all. Trinity based class systems are totally a design choice.

    It's a system that is often best used to create, or rather enforce, encounter design in which game designer * players can control a number of elements absolutely. This doesn't necessarily apply to just simply the well known raid bosses of Warcraft and the like. There is a design function to a trinity system in how a player kills Hogger, for example. And that specificity is what allowed devs to create a "Hogger" encounter.

    Do also keep in mind, WoW and it's predecessors didn't create the system, as trinity systems originally applied to any interdependence on specific roles. For example, in the early days fo EQ the trinity was Tanking, Healing and Control. Earlier game design didn't even have the "tank" component as tanking in the manner of creating disproportional virtual threat didn't truly exist.

    So to answer you OP- it's merely a design conceit in how a designer wants combat to flow in a game.

    Non-trinity based class system do exist and have existed previously quite successfully. Trinity / no trinity, is not a better or worse scenario. They are merely differences in game style and presentation.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-02-06 at 10:41 PM.

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