How can there be no trinity?

[Clash the DK]

Of course you have to communicate!

If you want face roll content, then just stick with WoW's Raid Finder raids.

A bit off topic, but why do you come in here and argue so hardly about a game that you don't know anything about? Just read the mass info post before trying to engage in discussions.

For instance, if you had, then you would know that for people like you who just want easy, low thought dungeons, there is the story mode. It's designed for PUGs to be able to clear. Explorable mode dungeons are the equivalent of Heroic raids in WoW.

I will excuse your ignorance and judgmental attitude because you do not know me.

Yes, I used to play WoW. And I've done my fair share of Heroic raiding. I'm a great player (most likely much better than you). But that doesn't mean I need to talk while I play. Some people like to talk. Some don't. I don't want to be forced to yell out everything I do or am about to do in game to down encounters. And that is the way this game will need to be played if the content is in anyway difficult. Otherwise it will be just as faceroll as LFR.

From the video on GW2 I saw earlier, it was hinted that there would be proximity aggro. If that is not the case, then I apologize for getting the easily excitable into a frenzy. From a design standpoint, I think it will be a mistake to totally rely on cooldowns as the only type of mob control.

[Agent Mercury]

I just finished a game of BF3. This is a serious question: Does Battlefield 3 have the holy trinity? You take damage, you deal damage, and you heal damage. So it's just a gimmicky version of the "holy trinity", right? (Really, this is a serious question, and I wanna know your opinion on it!)

My take on the issue: The holy trinity is NOT just "roles working in tandem with each other". The holy trinity is three specific roles, working in a very specific way, together. Specialized loadouts do not make the holy trinity any more than (IMO) Battlefield 3's class system makes a "holy trinity".

Different people will have different playstyles. They will use their differing playstyles together and participate in "teamwork". That doesn't make "the holy trinity".

I don't play that game. Is there a medic load-out with healing kits, de-fribs, and like a pistol? Or one with like a damage soaking armor that slows him down and a riot shield? Or one that uses grenades in place of say a med-pac?

(Simply put your using a cat to compare two dogs.)

Now you give me your definition of Holy-Trinity after attacking mine. Wait what?!

I am sure you can get by with people spreading Tanky, Healy, and Offensive-y moves across their bars but when you get more into serious play the Trinity is going to rear it's head. Groups are going to load out their weapon set with specific moves to fill a role instead of spreading them out.

[Borzo]

And you are missing his point. I am about to illustrate it for you. The holy trinity exists but has been "unlocked". In most MMOs picture it as the Tri-Force, the pieces fit together and must stay that way. By unlocking it effectively each piece can rotate it's position as needed, one taking the brunt while another does a little healing and one is behind dealing the majority of damage. !Cool-downs are ready so they shift! Still holding up parts of the trinity each with new parts.

Square peg, round hole. You're pushing it too hard. Not gonna fit.

The holy trinity requires taking damage. GW2 is designed so that you AVOID damage. Taking damage in GW2 will kill you very fast.

The holy trinity requires healing the person taking the damage. GW2 has no ally-targeted healing, so you can't directly do any "tank healing".

GW2 has Damage, Control, and Support. That's a different trinity... definitely not "the Holy Trinity".

People will do damage, people will CC mobs, and people will toss out buffs/debuffs (some of which do AOE heals). This is VERY different than the "Holy Trinity". And people will do all 3 at the same time. All the players will do whatever it takes to survive an encounter. That's not "The Holy Trinity", that's just referred to as "teamwork" by most normal people who play video games beyond MMORPGs.

Battlefield 3: no holy trinity, just teamwork. GW2 will be similar in that regard.

[Chronius]

This whole cenario is invalid, there is no aggro table. But if a mob cant get to a player becouse something/ a spell is in the way, well then my guess is it change into going after someone else

OFC there is an aggro table, however it's not a static as we know from wow.

[Agent Mercury]

Square peg, round hole. You're pushing it too hard. Not gonna fit.

The holy trinity requires taking damage. GW2 is designed so that you AVOID damage. Taking damage in GW2 will kill you very fast.

The holy trinity requires healing the person taking the damage. GW2 has no ally-targeted healing, so you can't directly do any "tank healing".

GW2 has Damage, Control, and Support. That's a different trinity... definitely not "the Holy Trinity".

People will do damage, people will CC mobs, and people will toss out buffs/debuffs (some of which do AOE heals). This is VERY different than the "Holy Trinity". And people will do all 3 at the same time. All the players will do whatever it takes to survive an encounter. That's not "The Holy Trinity", that's just referred to as "teamwork" by most normal people who play video games beyond MMORPGs.

Battlefield 3: no holy trinity, just teamwork. GW2 will be similar in that regard.

Whoa. Let's not lie. There are ally heals it even says so on their website. It is a minor part of a support line but the other things it can do like say stop damage is something that has fallen on the healers shoulders before whether it is through buffs, shields, and etc. Effectively keeping them alive.

Renaming and giving a new coat of paint doesn't destroy it. It's a new take and we all would love that but lets be honest with ourselves. And the truth is you will have to when it releases to mass play.

[Chronius]

Whoa. Let's not lie. There are ally heals it even says so on their website. It is a minor part of a support line but the other things it can do like say stop damage is something that has fallen on the healers shoulders before whether it is through buffs, shields, and etc. Effectively keeping them alive.

Renaming and giving a new coat of paint doesn't destroy it. It's a new take and we all would love that but lets be honest with ourselves. And the truth is you will have to when it releases to mass play.

I believe those AoE targetted heals are somewhat weak and on a cooldown. I doubt lets say an elementalist water attuned could keep a warrior/guardian up with multiple mobs banging on them. Also remember that death is not that big of a deal in this game, your mates should be able to get you up, even while the combat is still raging.

[Deleted]

Everyone should go and read this http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-gam...healing-death/ But now its time for bed over here, 6 in the morning and havent hit the sack yet *yawn*

[Borzo]

Now you give me your definition of Holy-Trinity after attacking mine. Wait what?!

I am sure you can get by with people spreading Tanky, Healy, and Offensive-y moves across their bars but when you get more into serious play the Trinity is going to rear it's head. Groups are going to load out their weapon set with specific moves to fill a role instead of spreading them out.

The abilities do not focus on "tanky" or "healy" stuff. The abilities are focused on "support" and "control" (and damage). Support is not healing, and control is not tanking.

There is a "trinity of abilities" in GW2, and that trinity is damage, support, and control. That is not the holy trinity, however (which is tanking, healing, and damage). Also, keep in mind that all players will be able - and in fact required - to use all of their "trinity of abilities" in difficult group encounters all at the same time.

Will certain players be biased towards playing with certain playstyles, or biased towards certain abilities/skills? Sure! But they'll have to use their combined "trinity abilities", and do so together. But that's not the holy trinity... as I already said, that's just called "teamwork".

A combat rogue, an arms warrior, and a affliction warlock decide to do some questing together. They are three different classes. Does that make them "the holy trinity"? No. Is it a variation of the holy trinity? No. It's just 3 people doing the same thing (killing shit) in 3 different ways. A trinity of some kinda...? Sure, 'cause they are working together as 3, but not the "holy trinity".

[Angella]

What would be cool is if all damage was area specific and didn't occur until 2 seconds after a spell/ability was cast. All the people in WoW that stand in fire would be crying soo loud. Which is about 95% of the WoW population, so it would be one hell of a wail.

[Chronius]

What would be cool is if all damage was area specific and didn't occur until 2 seconds after a spell/ability was cast. All the people in WoW that stand in fire would be crying soo loud. Which is about 95% of the WoW population, so it would be one hell of a wail.

How did this manage to make its way into this topic?
There are mobs with attacks in GW2 that will kill you outright if you don't move.

[Balfire]

Whoa. Let's not lie. There are ally heals it even says so on their website. It is a minor part of a support line but the other things it can do like say stop damage is something that has fallen on the healers shoulders before whether it is through buffs, shields, and etc. Effectively keeping them alive.

Renaming and giving a new coat of paint doesn't destroy it. It's a new take and we all would love that but lets be honest with ourselves. And the truth is you will have to when it releases to mass play.

Its not a lie there are no ally TARGETED heals, the only healing in this game is
Self-Healing: Rather powerful meant to sustain yourself in combat on a cooldown
AoE Healing: From what we have been told rather weak and non stackable. Most in the form of actual regen Probably the same pip system as GW1. Meaning Heal 1 add 6 pips Heal 2 adds 5 but the max is 10 regen pips even if Heal 3 adds another 4 it will stay at 10.
Splash heals: Secondary very weak heals tacked onto damage or utility spells. Also comes from some class combos such as Thief unload into a ranger healing spring.

When someone is taking damage in this game their will be no way to save them by laying down a bunch of AoE heals they will get bursted before the regen can do shit. The AoE and splash heals are only meant to take the edge off they will no prevent you from dying while focused.

[Chronius]

Its not a lie there are no ally TARGETED heals, the only healing in this game is
Self-Healing: Rather powerful meant to sustain yourself in combat on a cooldown
AoE Healing: From what we have been told rather weak and non stackable. Most in the form of actual regen Probably the same pip system as GW1. Meaning Heal 1 add 6 pips Heal 2 adds 5 but the max is 10 regen pips even if Heal 3 adds another 4 it will stay at 10.
Splash heals: Secondary very weak heals tacked onto damage or utility spells. Also comes from some class combos such as Thief unload into a ranger healing spring.

When someone is taking damage in this game their will be no way to save them by laying down a bunch of AoE heals they will get bursted before the regen can do shit. The AoE and splash heals are only meant to take the edge off they will no prevent you from dying while focused.

Engineer Medikits, are "kinda" like a targeted heal.

[Borzo]

Balfire is right. You CANNOT directly target and heal an ally. The game doesn't let you. Seriously.

[Balfire]

Engineer Medikits, are "kinda" like a targetted heal.

We have no idea how those function yet and they have to be picked up and used by the player if I'm not mistaken so they couldn't be used in a situation where someone was attempting to tank a mob as it would leave them completely defenseless. I see the med kits as more like bandages in WoW when you need to you can step out and use it or when you have a breather you can help heal up the party, but if you are i the thick of things they will be difficult to utilize.

[Chronius]

We have no idea how those function yet and they have to be picked up and used by the player if I'm not mistaken so they couldn't be used in a situation where someone was attempting to tank a mob as it would leave them completely defenseless. I see the med kits as more like bandages in WoW when you need to you can step out and use it or when you have a breather you can help heal up the party, but if you are i the thick of things they will be difficult to utilize.

I hope the engi will be able to drop/throw them and that the person who first steps on it merely receives a regen boon.

[DrakeWurrum]

Wow. I have never read a thread that has tried so hard to fit a round peg into a square hole. Pushing harder won't make it go in. Some holes are square, and will never "get" the round peg idea, no matter how you spin it.

I'm surprised no one has posted this video yet:

Huh. Glad you linked that video.

I've never really liked the Holy Trinity exactly, but... I never saw it as having such intense drawbacks. As WoW has evolved, it's become less and less social... is it possible the Holy Trinity has been contributing to that all along?

---------- Post added 2012-02-06 at 11:30 PM ----------

Here, is a good place to start learning more about the game.

Well, I'll certainly do that, but the first thing I did was google up the official site and look into the professions and races. I've played Guild Wars somewhat, so already have a good idea of the basic level of the game. Thief profession looks highly tempting, though I normally go with an elementalist or warrior style class.

(this has caused me to re-install Guild Wars, though I never got around to buying the campaigns!)

[Lothaeryn]

Unless you provide a means of overcoming content for them you won't continue the same level of subs.

This is where I stopped listening to anything you have to say, as clearly you know next to nothing on how this game is being developed,or you are trying to troll everyone here.

There are more than ten pages describing how this system will work, you have blatantly ignored them and continue the same rabble repetitively trying to argue how a system without a trinity cannot work well or does not exist. The irony is that rpgs never started with the trinity, it was a system added to dumb down roleply to the point where laymen could understand what they were trying to do in an rpg and excell at doing that on erole well. It makes things a lot easier when you can focus on one thing, but a lot more skill oriented when you take on everything at once.

This game is about skill, there won't be much hand holding by the devs by thelooks of it either. The game was designed to reward player by their mrit, not for what class or role they play in the trinity.

By the looks of your signiature, you are a bear tank who is probably getting tired of WoW, and are trying to find a new way to get your ego fix by filling the important role of the game. However, it seems your at an impasse because you can't find your niche role in GW 2's combat system,and you came to these forums to try and justify to yourself why a system without the trinity cannot work or does not exist, and that it will either fail because its too easy, or too hard.

Newsflash, GW2 isn't innovating with this, they are simply doing what very few RPG's in the late past have done. If you cannot grasp the concept of a game that can be challenging without a trinity than this game probably was never designed for you in mind. TBH, it sounds like your afraid that without being able to fall back on the fact that your a tank and that your needed, you feel like people will not take you along because your either not skilled eough or not wanted, which is exactly how things should be.

No one should be forced to deal with people they rather would never talk to to begin with, and hopefully this will pave a way for people to actually bond together in their niche group of freinds instead of being player # 5837.

Edge, I seriously hope you close this thread, as the OP has had morethan his question answered by this forum. And there are better threads to adres any further questions he may have in the future.

By the way, GW2 doesn't have a subscription model either, they make profit off of box sales and micro transactions via store, s they don't need to worry about keeping subscriptions, as long asthey make good content they know they will make bank.

[tibben]

I totally understand that. No where was I saying that WoW's threat system was the only way. But there is ALWAYS a reason you are being attacked. It could be simply that the mob is standing closest to you, but you move away and you are no longer the tank. Fine but you are still the tank as long as you are being hit.

Huh? You are still the tank as long as you are being hit? I thought when the healer was getting hit he was still the healer. When the DPS was getting hit he was still the DPS. But apparently just being hit by a mob makes you the tank. No wonder no one can convince you the holy trinity doesn't exist in GW2.

I would define a tank as the player who is purposefully designed to take hits and distract mobs from attacking anyone else and even comes equipped with skills designed specifically to get and keep an enemy's attention. If you are "tanking" a mob as a DPS or healer in a holy trinity system then you are going to die unless you severely out-gear/out-level the content. I certainly would not go so far as to say whoever is getting hit is the tank.

The same is true of a healer/support class. If your primary function is to heal/support and your decision on how to spec completely nerfs your ability to do anything outside of healing/support then you are a healer. I used to toss out a couple of Holy Radiances on my Prot Paladin in WoW on some of the more healing intensive fights just to help out. That does not mean I was ever a healer on that toon. I was the tank and that is all. I just had a few support spells to help ease the burden on healers.

If your definition of tanking extends to healing then you would have to call my Prot Paladin a healer. I imagine you would have a hard time convincing people that Prot Paladins are actually healers. Just like you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that has read up on this game that the holy trinity actually exists in GW2.

[Maconi]

I think most people are confused as to how GW2 works.

Yes you can tank, yes you can heal, yes you can DPS.

You can't stay in one role for an entire fight though. No class can tank enough/heal enough to have 1 person keep aggro for an entire fight. That person is going to slowly go down and someone is going to have to swap them.

Cooldowns are also designed so that 1-2 people can't just keep swapping with each other. Everyone is going to have to take a turn because your cooldowns won't be back up in time otherwise.

I will agree that it is misleading to say that the Trinity is gone. However you also have to admit they've done a good job at restructuring/rebuilding it.

[Jaerin]

Tibben the thread is over...you should read it through before responding to posts.