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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    I saw those videos...again you CAN run dungeons with all DK's, but that doesn't mean that its ideal or fun. So maybe in GW2 you can run as 5 of anything, but how does that not make each person feel like they have no significant value in the party? I mean if I can just as easily be replaced by any random then what makes anyone loyal to me? Then I'm even more dependent on the whims of other people even more than I was before. Not to mention it will be even harder for you to have any clue if I'm good or not.
    So a person who helps tank and helps heal and helps dps in party is insignificant, but person who just heal or just tank or just dps is significant ? You think that if you just heal, you can't be easily replaced by some random healer ? Nobody claims that GW2 is game for everyone and I would like this kind of mentality where ppl ask for strict rules, so they can feel special by just making one simple choice be gone.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandrea View Post

    edit: TLDR - if you die it is always your fault
    A bit harsh and not entirely the truth. In explorable mode dungeons I'm fairly sure you can die due to others failing to understand a part of the encounter, or from you being checkmated by mobs because someone else stepped out of the game-plan... but in general terms, yes you are correct.

    @Jaerin: "There is going to be someone who is involved in keeping people alive." Yes - the entire group is. Everyone has group-support skills and need to use them to survive in an encounter. Due to activation time and CDs you can't depend on somone, it's all for one, one for all

    Same goes for tanking. Different professions have different ways of tanking, group synergy between professions are huge, but synergy within professions are also high as long as each group member syncs active skills to cover up the weaknesses of one set of skills with each other.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    I saw those videos...again you CAN run dungeons with all DK's, but that doesn't mean that its ideal or fun. So maybe in GW2 you can run as 5 of anything, but how does that not make each person feel like they have no significant value in the party? I mean if I can just as easily be replaced by any random then what makes anyone loyal to me? Then I'm even more dependent on the whims of other people even more than I was before. Not to mention it will be even harder for you to have any clue if I'm good or not.

    People complain about lack of skill right now, I can't imagine how any casual is going to be able to wrap their heads about something like this. Maybe that's a good thing for the skilled players, but I think its going to be a severe hinderence to the average player. Or as I said its going to be so easy that your role won't really matter much.
    That is a very depressing statement, and I'm not exactly sure how to respond to that, because I'm not sure if you are trolling or not.

    Just because anyone can do the role, does not mean that everyone can do the role. In wow, there are 4 specs that can tank, 5 specs that can heal, and 21 that can dps, however, of those 21, how many are that great at DPS? I mean, they are all viable, but seriously, unless you really really love boomkin, how many do you see now? When the raidbot sims came out for 4.3, half the boomkins I know switched to either resto or feral, and the other half rerolled, or switched to another 85.

  4. #24
    that kind of people? well, there are a lot of MMOs - that aren't GW2 - for those kind of people, right? and where are those people anyway? trade chat is always full of LF tanks, LF healers, and LFG queues are long because of a lack of tanks and healers. i tip my hat to those folks who like to play those classes, but where are you all?? log in and tank and heal for us! personally, i can't wait for this game to break the norm. i'm ultimately responsible to keep myself alive AND i can help out in group play? BRING IT ON!

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Findus View Post
    What worries me more about a lack of threat table etc. is how mobs will move and how melee players will be at a disadvantage. If I'm in a group of 5 people all fighting at different ranges spread out around a room, won't the enemy just run around like mad trying to hit everyone? Because I've played melee classes in WoW and trying to keep up with an unpredictable NPC that isn't being tanked properly is just hell.
    There is no simple threat table, but there are rules who NPC attacks first. It's based on range, armor, health, movement ... it's not random.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    I saw those videos...again you CAN run dungeons with all DK's, but that doesn't mean that its ideal or fun. So maybe in GW2 you can run as 5 of anything, but how does that not make each person feel like they have no significant value in the party? I mean if I can just as easily be replaced by any random then what makes anyone loyal to me? Then I'm even more dependent on the whims of other people even more than I was before. Not to mention it will be even harder for you to have any clue if I'm good or not.
    I think people will be loyal to one another because they are able to use their abilities wisely enough to keep themselves and others alive, while also killing the mobs. If you have 5 of the same profession in a group then try bringing different utility skills than the others and mix it up. Cross profession combos also work with the same cprofessions, so talking about timing AoE spells to keep support/dps up would also be in the cards. Actually having to talk to people in your group, imagine.

    Casual players won't be asked to use their skills in that manner. When I say casual I mean the people who will do most of the regular content, but not the explorer mode dungeons (Heroic, for a WoW reference). If the casual player wants to try to harder dungeons then yes, they will probably have to learn how to take advantage of having 4 other people to work with... but I don't think that's asking a lot. However, I also think it's appropriate for a game to have dungeons that not anyone who walks in can complete. That seems to be a hardcore mindset these days.
    Last edited by fishious; 2012-02-06 at 10:51 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Repefe View Post
    So a person who helps tank and helps heal and helps dps in party is insignificant, but person who just heal or just tank or just dps is significant ? You think that if you just heal, you can't be easily replaced by some random healer ? Nobody claims that GW2 is game for everyone and I would like this kind of mentality where ppl ask for strict rules, so they can feel special by just making one simple choice be gone.
    I think alot of players that are used to playing healers and tanks, are afraid that they no longer can go around on their high horse and say "you cant do this without me, you are dependent on me"

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    This is not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying there are PEOPLE defined as tanks, there could be more than 1, but their job is going to be to pick up mobs and prevent them from killing people who cannot take hits. Unless you are saying everyone can take hits

    There is going to be someone who is involved in keeping people alive.

    There is going to be someone who is involved in killing mobs.

    Also I watched that video...they never said that NO one is going to have to heal, SOMEONE will it just sounds like ANYONE can fill that role. It doesn't mean that you don't have a healer in the group, it just means you don't have to have the SAME healer every time. So what is going to prevent all the arguments about who's going to fill what role? Again all it seems to be is they are blurring the lines such that people will have to sort out the system again.

    It doesn't seem like there isn't going to be any healers, tanks, or dps...they just aren't fixed into their roles.

    Also you are saying that you can actually switch abilities in combat? If that's the case how is it not going to be required to skill dance or some other convoluted thing to maximize your role?

    I really hope this doesn't descend into people calling each other trolls because I haven't found a single civil discourse on how this non-trinity system ACTUALLY works...just a lot of speculation about how they say its supposed to work.
    Nobody of any class can just "Take" all the hits on the chin and survive. not even useing several people rotateing CD's could you cover all the blows a target will throw out without folks dieing due to trying to tank. The point is to avoid the hits, aka dont be there when they land or back away and heal if you couldnt avoid it before you take another.

    No class has a direct targeted heal on other players, there can be no dedicated healer. Each class has their own heal on a CD. In some cases this heal may have a splash effect to nearby friendlies and some skills and skillcombos also have a splash healing effect but these effects are small compaired to direct hits, they are more to cover incidental spalsh damage not the kind of damage that someone would take from foolishly trying to tank.

    DPS... well that leg of the trinity still exists but things would not die if you could not damage them. Every member will be doing this to an extent while also takeing part in control and suport as battle progresses.

    For swapping abilities most classes have 2 distinct weapon sets that they can swap between with a short CD on the switch. those few that dont have a similar mechanic unique to their class that accomplishes the same thing. A players first 5 abilities/attacks are tied to their weapon and swaping weapons changes those skills. The remaining 5 slots are 1 heal 3 utility slots and an eliet skill, those 5 you must pick before battle and cant be changed mid fight. As an example a warrior could be useing a sword and shield to bleed an opponant and block a large breath attack. As soon as that breath attack is over they swap to their 2handed hammer to knock the target down and get a few free high damage hits in before changeing back if needed by the situation.

    And if you want honest discourse without the troll word coming up you might want to spend some time doing a bit of research on your own. I dont think your a troll but your posts so far indicate you have a fundamental lack of knowledge about the game. Frankly you sound like a player that started MMO's with wow and heard about GW2 yesterday and the paradigm shift has you baffled. You also sound like you'd rather be spoonfed the answers you want to hear instead of taking the time to read through the stickies or use the search function as many of these topics have been discussed over an over on many threads.

    Who is John Galt?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jagscorpion View Post
    I think the answer is not that there is no trinity as such, but that no-one is locked into their role in the trinity. You don't go into an encounter with 2 healers 2 tanks and 6 dps, more that you go into an encounter with 10 players that will adapt as needed.

    That's not to say that there is no tank or damage dealers or healers, but from what I understand it's more fluid than the kind of fixed roles you have currently.

    Also from the video it seems like the fun in playing is more about working symbiotically to beat bosses rather than having the healer stare at health bars, the dps focus on their rotations and avoiding mechanics, and the tank focusing on mitigating damage/avoiding.
    I mean you are just not calling the roles what they are. The trinity still there in all its glory they just choose not to define the roles. Which means that when all the information is available people will break it down into their roles. It's naive to think that this game isn't going to be theorycrafted into oblivion like the rest, until people go to a webpage and find out the "best" skill set for a given situation or encounter.

    As for the roles that's only because people have reduced the roles to that...Vanilla WoW wasn't anything like the WoW of now days because you didn't have dmg meters, you didn't have threat meters, you didn't have any clue as to how good you were doing other than you were beating encounters or not.

    The only reason its so boring now is because its been reduced to the most basic requirements to fulfill your role. You can't take information away because once the cat is out of the bag there is no putting it back in. Take gearscore/ilvl...we all know it does mean jack, but everyone used it because that's all there was available to compare people. It wasn't a design choice to make that important per se, it was born our of necessity.

    Same with threat meters, there were no aggro and threat meters in Vanilla. DPS had to guess how much DPS they could do before pulling aggro. The good skilled players rode that line closer than others. That was the determination of skill was riding that hidden line. Now as long as your name isn't on top of the chart you don't even have to think about threat. Well Blizzard didn't give up that info to start, but it existed. It wasn't until some ingeneous people worked out a way to narrow down the actual threat values did the meters start to show up. Then Blizzard decided that it was better to provide the info instead of having only some have an advantage over others.

    All these changes are due to the evolution of the game...not a poor design choice per se.

  10. #30
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    poor OP. you have no imagination. and yet you are over thinking this. that or you are trying to justify the trinity system because that's all you have ever known. when the game comes out, try it. if you dont like, dont play. unfortunately, it sounds like you've already made up your mind.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    Same with threat meters, there were no aggro and threat meters in Vanilla. DPS had to guess how much DPS they could do before pulling aggro. The good skilled players rode that line closer than others. That was the determination of skill was riding that hidden line. Now as long as your name isn't on top of the chart you don't even have to think about threat. Well Blizzard didn't give up that info to start, but it existed. It wasn't until some ingeneous people worked out a way to narrow down the actual threat values did the meters start to show up. Then Blizzard decided that it was better to provide the info instead of having only some have an advantage over others.

    All these changes are due to the evolution of the game...not a poor design choice per se.
    again... there is NO THREAT in guild wars 2... mobs/boss attack more i guess on random choice or event (who is doing the most damage, who seems to be contributing most to group, who seems to be doing the most avoidance)

  12. #32
    I'll put it simple, remember the fight in the mines of moria in the fellowship of the ring, no one was tanking the troll, it was everyone attacking and dodging at the same time to stay alive.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    I mean you are just not calling the roles what they are. The trinity still there in all its glory they just choose not to define the roles. Which means that when all the information is available people will break it down into their roles. It's naive to think that this game isn't going to be theorycrafted into oblivion like the rest, until people go to a webpage and find out the "best" skill set for a given situation or encounter.

    As for the roles that's only because people have reduced the roles to that...Vanilla WoW wasn't anything like the WoW of now days because you didn't have dmg meters, you didn't have threat meters, you didn't have any clue as to how good you were doing other than you were beating encounters or not.

    The only reason its so boring now is because its been reduced to the most basic requirements to fulfill your role. You can't take information away because once the cat is out of the bag there is no putting it back in. Take gearscore/ilvl...we all know it does mean jack, but everyone used it because that's all there was available to compare people. It wasn't a design choice to make that important per se, it was born our of necessity.

    Same with threat meters, there were no aggro and threat meters in Vanilla. DPS had to guess how much DPS they could do before pulling aggro. The good skilled players rode that line closer than others. That was the determination of skill was riding that hidden line. Now as long as your name isn't on top of the chart you don't even have to think about threat. Well Blizzard didn't give up that info to start, but it existed. It wasn't until some ingeneous people worked out a way to narrow down the actual threat values did the meters start to show up. Then Blizzard decided that it was better to provide the info instead of having only some have an advantage over others.

    All these changes are due to the evolution of the game...not a poor design choice per se.
    You know what's the glory of hard trinity ? Trade chat filled with LFM ... ppl who can't play together, because the roles their class can fill don't click ... 20 minute long LFG queues ... disbanded raids. There will be tanky specs in GW2, there will be pure dps specs, there will be pure support specs ... there will even be optimal comps of specs for dungs ... but if you have 4 friends who want to play with you, you will be able to ... LF tank/healer free.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

  14. #34
    Jaerin i just read what you wrote in the "What excites you the most out of GW2?" thread, and i now understand that you have not read up on how things will work in gw2, as Cassandrea said, there is no threat in gw2, there for there cant be a tank that stands around keeping aggro on the mobs.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandrea View Post
    again... there is NO THREAT in guild wars 2... mobs/boss attack more i guess on random choice or event (who is doing the most damage, who seems to be contributing most to group, who seems to be doing the most avoidance)
    The mobs have all different ways to decide targets. Some mobs target the furthest away attacker, some target the people who are wearing light armor, ect. There are a lot of different ways the aggro works. Was talked about in the Q&A I think.

    EDIT: A ha!!! I found it.

    Question #173: "One thing that I still don't completely understand is how threat will work in PvE situations. Is it just based on whoever is doing the most damage at any given time or are there skills associated with threat? Is it a profession thing? Along the same lines...if there is no dedicated healer, who keeps the group alive? How?"

    Answer: "Threat is largely positional based, creatures like to attack things closer to them. Some creatures have different behavior and will attack things at random these creatures are scarier kill them first. (There are a lot of other factors but positioning is one of the most prominent) As for healing when everyone call heal and res the answer to who is keeping you alive, is everyone if your health is getting low you pull back and heal up. If a ranged monster is raining ranged death on your party you use reflection skills, or keep the monster shut down, or everyone spikes that guy down. ~Izzy"

    Answer #2: "There is no skill based threat. It is based on a variety of factors, one of which is proximity. The group works together to keep itself alive. If you draw aggro use your heal, dodge, use defensive skills, try and lose aggro if you have used up that stuff. If you can't get an ally to use a cc skill on the enemy or a support skill that might help you, for example:

    Debuff the enemy with weakness so you take less damage.
    Cast an aoe heal near you.
    Apply a protection, aegis, or other boon to you.
    Blind the enemy.

    This gameplay is just a more team oriented, and fluid version of combat that requires more interaction and less dependency."
    Last edited by fishious; 2012-02-06 at 11:06 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    The trinity still there in all its glory they just choose not to define the roles.
    No, it's not. For the trinity to "be there" there NEEDS to be a defined tank and a defined healer. There needs to be classes that can fulfill those roles on their own. No class can fill either role on its own in GW2, meaning that there is no trinity. Simply because there are heals that can be used and ways to temporarily mitigated damage doesn't mean that someone is a tank or a healer.

    Since people have used Vindictus as an example before...Fiona and Evie. Fiona would be the de-facto tank since she's the only character that can block attacks and is the only one with a shield. Evie would be the de-facto healer since she's the only character with heals (a group regen buff and a placed heal that puts a debuff on you, restricting you from being healed a second time). Despite this, neither can perform the roles of tank or healer.

    Fiona can't just sit there and eat up all the damage because there is no way to ensure the enemy sticks on here, and she will die if she doesn't avoid damage because of the limited healing (yes there are potions but lets assume they are only usable every 30s or so to make it more similar to GW2). Evie can't sit back and "heal" because then she's doing nothing for the overwhelming majority of the fight due to the long cooldowns on her "heals".

    So despite "tanking" and "healing" existing in Vindictus, it definitely does NOT have the trinity in any way, shape, or form. Think of GW2 along those lines.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Swingthang View Post
    That is a very depressing statement, and I'm not exactly sure how to respond to that, because I'm not sure if you are trolling or not.

    Just because anyone can do the role, does not mean that everyone can do the role. In wow, there are 4 specs that can tank, 5 specs that can heal, and 21 that can dps, however, of those 21, how many are that great at DPS? I mean, they are all viable, but seriously, unless you really really love boomkin, how many do you see now? When the raidbot sims came out for 4.3, half the boomkins I know switched to either resto or feral, and the other half rerolled, or switched to another 85.
    That's EXACTLY my point...So instead of you having duel spec, I see it as you come into a group and they say we need 3 interrupts, 4 heals, 3 CC's, ect...

    From order of best to worst - unless all skills are equal there will be some that are better than others
    So best interrupt classes are AA, BB, CC, DD, EE
    So best heal classes are BB, DD, EE, AA, CC
    So best soaker classes are DD, AA, EE, CC, BB

    As a completely hypothetical. So instead of having DD always be the tank and BB always be the healer they have hybrids. Ultimately you will be put into a role one way or another. If the tank or dmg soakers are dying you will either find a better tank or a different person to fill that role. Again they are responsible for doing their job. If someone is always dying someone is going to tell them to change something.

    People will be told what they need to bring to a group one way or another. Maybe you be told all 6 or 8 abilities to bring, but I bet there will be a few. I mean groups used to stack druids for innervate and that alone. Not because druids were the best dps or heals, but because they had a mana regen ability. How is this not going to be the case for every role in GW2?

    Call it tanking, healing, dps...or control, survival, and destruction...they are the same thing in the end...

  18. #38
    That is all kinds of inaccurate...

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    That's EXACTLY my point...So instead of you having duel spec, I see it as you come into a group and they say we need 3 interrupts, 4 heals, 3 CC's, ect...

    From order of best to worst - unless all skills are equal there will be some that are better than others
    So best interrupt classes are AA, BB, CC, DD, EE
    So best heal classes are BB, DD, EE, AA, CC
    So best soaker classes are DD, AA, EE, CC, BB

    As a completely hypothetical. So instead of having DD always be the tank and BB always be the healer they have hybrids. Ultimately you will be put into a role one way or another. If the tank or dmg soakers are dying you will either find a better tank or a different person to fill that role. Again they are responsible for doing their job. If someone is always dying someone is going to tell them to change something.

    People will be told what they need to bring to a group one way or another. Maybe you be told all 6 or 8 abilities to bring, but I bet there will be a few. I mean groups used to stack druids for innervate and that alone. Not because druids were the best dps or heals, but because they had a mana regen ability. How is this not going to be the case for every role in GW2?

    Call it tanking, healing, dps...or control, survival, and destruction...they are the same thing in the end...
    ok lets try this again.... THERE IS NO THREAT... THERE IS NO TANKING... NO ONE IS BUILT TO TAKE DAMAGE OR HEAL. A warrior with a shield and a sword should be able to take less damage, but it has no skills that say it is better then an earth elementalist taking damage...

    All skills are situational, and can be switched on the fly.

    Edit:

    and by the way, you can decide what to bring. If you see the mob that jumps to the mesmer a lot cause they target lightly armoured foes... try chaining it or putting a ward near the mesmer so he can't reach her.

    using your example... DD CANNOT tank because they would eventually die to the amount of damage coming there way, and the mobs won't focus on them anyway
    Last edited by Cassandrea; 2012-02-06 at 11:18 PM.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaerin View Post
    That's EXACTLY my point...So instead of you having duel spec, I see it as you come into a group and they say we need 3 interrupts, 4 heals, 3 CC's, ect...

    From order of best to worst - unless all skills are equal there will be some that are better than others
    So best interrupt classes are AA, BB, CC, DD, EE
    So best heal classes are BB, DD, EE, AA, CC
    So best soaker classes are DD, AA, EE, CC, BB

    As a completely hypothetical. So instead of having DD always be the tank and BB always be the healer they have hybrids. Ultimately you will be put into a role one way or another. If the tank or dmg soakers are dying you will either find a better tank or a different person to fill that role. Again they are responsible for doing their job. If someone is always dying someone is going to tell them to change something.

    People will be told what they need to bring to a group one way or another. Maybe you be told all 6 or 8 abilities to bring, but I bet there will be a few. I mean groups used to stack druids for innervate and that alone. Not because druids were the best dps or heals, but because they had a mana regen ability. How is this not going to be the case for every role in GW2?

    Call it tanking, healing, dps...or control, survival, and destruction...they are the same thing in the end...

    So what ... you will spend 2 hours looking for the perfect comp instead of picking 4 ppl, discussing the strategy and playing the game ? To each his own I guess. I will take 4 other wars ... 3 will go support, 2 will go tanky, everyone will go dps and will will down the content having fun. After you are done with assembling the most impressive group comp we will be done with the dungeon.

    My part in this story has been decided. And I will play it well.

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