What's the worst that can happen to you ...
@Jaerin: "There is going to be someone who is involved in keeping people alive." Yes - the entire group is. Everyone has group-support skills and need to use them to survive in an encounter. Due to activation time and CDs you can't depend on somone, it's all for one, one for all
Same goes for tanking. Different professions have different ways of tanking, group synergy between professions are huge, but synergy within professions are also high as long as each group member syncs active skills to cover up the weaknesses of one set of skills with each other.
Just because anyone can do the role, does not mean that everyone can do the role. In wow, there are 4 specs that can tank, 5 specs that can heal, and 21 that can dps, however, of those 21, how many are that great at DPS? I mean, they are all viable, but seriously, unless you really really love boomkin, how many do you see now? When the raidbot sims came out for 4.3, half the boomkins I know switched to either resto or feral, and the other half rerolled, or switched to another 85.
that kind of people? well, there are a lot of MMOs - that aren't GW2 - for those kind of people, right? and where are those people anyway? trade chat is always full of LF tanks, LF healers, and LFG queues are long because of a lack of tanks and healers. i tip my hat to those folks who like to play those classes, but where are you all?? log in and tank and heal for us! personally, i can't wait for this game to break the norm. i'm ultimately responsible to keep myself alive AND i can help out in group play? BRING IT ON!
Casual players won't be asked to use their skills in that manner. When I say casual I mean the people who will do most of the regular content, but not the explorer mode dungeons (Heroic, for a WoW reference). If the casual player wants to try to harder dungeons then yes, they will probably have to learn how to take advantage of having 4 other people to work with... but I don't think that's asking a lot. However, I also think it's appropriate for a game to have dungeons that not anyone who walks in can complete. That seems to be a hardcore mindset these days.
Last edited by fishious; 2012-02-06 at 10:51 PM.
No class has a direct targeted heal on other players, there can be no dedicated healer. Each class has their own heal on a CD. In some cases this heal may have a splash effect to nearby friendlies and some skills and skillcombos also have a splash healing effect but these effects are small compaired to direct hits, they are more to cover incidental spalsh damage not the kind of damage that someone would take from foolishly trying to tank.
DPS... well that leg of the trinity still exists but things would not die if you could not damage them. Every member will be doing this to an extent while also takeing part in control and suport as battle progresses.
For swapping abilities most classes have 2 distinct weapon sets that they can swap between with a short CD on the switch. those few that dont have a similar mechanic unique to their class that accomplishes the same thing. A players first 5 abilities/attacks are tied to their weapon and swaping weapons changes those skills. The remaining 5 slots are 1 heal 3 utility slots and an eliet skill, those 5 you must pick before battle and cant be changed mid fight. As an example a warrior could be useing a sword and shield to bleed an opponant and block a large breath attack. As soon as that breath attack is over they swap to their 2handed hammer to knock the target down and get a few free high damage hits in before changeing back if needed by the situation.
And if you want honest discourse without the troll word coming up you might want to spend some time doing a bit of research on your own. I dont think your a troll but your posts so far indicate you have a fundamental lack of knowledge about the game. Frankly you sound like a player that started MMO's with wow and heard about GW2 yesterday and the paradigm shift has you baffled. You also sound like you'd rather be spoonfed the answers you want to hear instead of taking the time to read through the stickies or use the search function as many of these topics have been discussed over an over on many threads.
Who is John Galt?
As for the roles that's only because people have reduced the roles to that...Vanilla WoW wasn't anything like the WoW of now days because you didn't have dmg meters, you didn't have threat meters, you didn't have any clue as to how good you were doing other than you were beating encounters or not.
The only reason its so boring now is because its been reduced to the most basic requirements to fulfill your role. You can't take information away because once the cat is out of the bag there is no putting it back in. Take gearscore/ilvl...we all know it does mean jack, but everyone used it because that's all there was available to compare people. It wasn't a design choice to make that important per se, it was born our of necessity.
Same with threat meters, there were no aggro and threat meters in Vanilla. DPS had to guess how much DPS they could do before pulling aggro. The good skilled players rode that line closer than others. That was the determination of skill was riding that hidden line. Now as long as your name isn't on top of the chart you don't even have to think about threat. Well Blizzard didn't give up that info to start, but it existed. It wasn't until some ingeneous people worked out a way to narrow down the actual threat values did the meters start to show up. Then Blizzard decided that it was better to provide the info instead of having only some have an advantage over others.
All these changes are due to the evolution of the game...not a poor design choice per se.
I'll put it simple, remember the fight in the mines of moria in the fellowship of the ring, no one was tanking the troll, it was everyone attacking and dodging at the same time to stay alive.
What's the worst that can happen to you ...
Jaerin i just read what you wrote in the "What excites you the most out of GW2?" thread, and i now understand that you have not read up on how things will work in gw2, as Cassandrea said, there is no threat in gw2, there for there cant be a tank that stands around keeping aggro on the mobs.
EDIT: A ha!!! I found it.
Question #173: "One thing that I still don't completely understand is how threat will work in PvE situations. Is it just based on whoever is doing the most damage at any given time or are there skills associated with threat? Is it a profession thing? Along the same lines...if there is no dedicated healer, who keeps the group alive? How?"
Answer: "Threat is largely positional based, creatures like to attack things closer to them. Some creatures have different behavior and will attack things at random these creatures are scarier kill them first. (There are a lot of other factors but positioning is one of the most prominent) As for healing when everyone call heal and res the answer to who is keeping you alive, is everyone if your health is getting low you pull back and heal up. If a ranged monster is raining ranged death on your party you use reflection skills, or keep the monster shut down, or everyone spikes that guy down. ~Izzy"
Answer #2: "There is no skill based threat. It is based on a variety of factors, one of which is proximity. The group works together to keep itself alive. If you draw aggro use your heal, dodge, use defensive skills, try and lose aggro if you have used up that stuff. If you can't get an ally to use a cc skill on the enemy or a support skill that might help you, for example:
Debuff the enemy with weakness so you take less damage.
Cast an aoe heal near you.
Apply a protection, aegis, or other boon to you.
Blind the enemy.
This gameplay is just a more team oriented, and fluid version of combat that requires more interaction and less dependency."
Last edited by fishious; 2012-02-06 at 11:06 PM.
Since people have used Vindictus as an example before...Fiona and Evie. Fiona would be the de-facto tank since she's the only character that can block attacks and is the only one with a shield. Evie would be the de-facto healer since she's the only character with heals (a group regen buff and a placed heal that puts a debuff on you, restricting you from being healed a second time). Despite this, neither can perform the roles of tank or healer.
Fiona can't just sit there and eat up all the damage because there is no way to ensure the enemy sticks on here, and she will die if she doesn't avoid damage because of the limited healing (yes there are potions but lets assume they are only usable every 30s or so to make it more similar to GW2). Evie can't sit back and "heal" because then she's doing nothing for the overwhelming majority of the fight due to the long cooldowns on her "heals".
So despite "tanking" and "healing" existing in Vindictus, it definitely does NOT have the trinity in any way, shape, or form. Think of GW2 along those lines.
From order of best to worst - unless all skills are equal there will be some that are better than others
So best interrupt classes are AA, BB, CC, DD, EE
So best heal classes are BB, DD, EE, AA, CC
So best soaker classes are DD, AA, EE, CC, BB
As a completely hypothetical. So instead of having DD always be the tank and BB always be the healer they have hybrids. Ultimately you will be put into a role one way or another. If the tank or dmg soakers are dying you will either find a better tank or a different person to fill that role. Again they are responsible for doing their job. If someone is always dying someone is going to tell them to change something.
People will be told what they need to bring to a group one way or another. Maybe you be told all 6 or 8 abilities to bring, but I bet there will be a few. I mean groups used to stack druids for innervate and that alone. Not because druids were the best dps or heals, but because they had a mana regen ability. How is this not going to be the case for every role in GW2?
Call it tanking, healing, dps...or control, survival, and destruction...they are the same thing in the end...
All skills are situational, and can be switched on the fly.
and by the way, you can decide what to bring. If you see the mob that jumps to the mesmer a lot cause they target lightly armoured foes... try chaining it or putting a ward near the mesmer so he can't reach her.
using your example... DD CANNOT tank because they would eventually die to the amount of damage coming there way, and the mobs won't focus on them anyway
So what ... you will spend 2 hours looking for the perfect comp instead of picking 4 ppl, discussing the strategy and playing the game ? To each his own I guess. I will take 4 other wars ... 3 will go support, 2 will go tanky, everyone will go dps and will will down the content having fun. After you are done with assembling the most impressive group comp we will be done with the dungeon.
What's the worst that can happen to you ...