This thread is like Groundhog's day, but with no Bill Murray.
This thread is like Groundhog's day, but with no Bill Murray.
GW had tanks in speedclears for two reasons, either you split up your team or you're aggro tons of foes at once, like you said, to do it very fast.
You can do anything in GW without a tank, and I remember when GW came out(pre-factions, so no shadow form) there was a discussion on GWGuru about if warriors should tank or not, general opinion was warriors are there to do damage, not to tank.
Even in GW the term "tank" is a little deceptive, you cannot control aggro there.
Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matterOriginally Posted by SW:TOR
This is wholly incorrect however. Esp. in games where their trinity system had tanks unable to take large hits but could hold threat disproportionately.
Just as other MMOs without a trinity system existed before GW2. So to have there been trinity systems where tanks are have no equivalent of Shield Wall or Bonetti's Defense.
In the game I played main before Rift, healers could absorb more damage than tanking classes. So much so a healer could outstrip a tank in HP and Physical Defense rating. Healers could carry shields as well.
What healers could not do was keep a mob on them indefinitely. A Warrior could.
Chaining knockdowns and creatively using the terrain in GW1 is not tanking.
Last edited by Fencers; 2012-02-08 at 09:14 PM. Reason: clarity
I understand where you're coming from with this - but there can be different levels of content. Some of that content will be challenging enough that bad players probably won't be able to complete it. Other content will be easy. Most of the content will probably be somewhere in between, and will ramp up in difficulty so that the more you play, the more complex the encounters get, to account for your ever-increasing mastery of game mechanics. Some players will take longer to learn the basics than others, some will reach a skill plateau earlier on, etc. - but this is true in any game and it's not a flaw of the GW2 system. All in all, time will tell. But I don't really think there's much reason to worry about these issues, given what we've seen and what's been talked about.
I've heard the term tanking in GW as well, even though all you are is a controller. And is also just used in specific areas of the game, vanquishing, speed clears and such.
No, I'm sorry. I just used your quote as a jumping-point to say that "tanking" will be redifined in GW2 to mean something it doesn't mean now. People will not say "control", they'll just start using the word "tank".
5 years from now, perhaps people won't even remember what a "tank" was back in the olden days of 2012.
Tank is a type of control
Healer is a type of support
Holy trinity = Tank/Healer/Damage <----- This holy trinity is very narrow in design, Leads to tank and spank, Damage dealers are only told what to attack and do nothing else, Healers pay attention to health bars and not the actual encounters, Tanks stand their letting things hit them.
This is all very basic and boring!
Holy trinity = Control/Support/Damage <------- this holy trinity is of a more broad design, Slows, stuns, Accuracy debuffs, misdirections, confusions, fears, are all forms of control that dont rely on one person taking a bunch of damage like the tanking form of control does. Instead all these other control mechanisms reduce damage done by 100%. A slowed mob cant reach a ranged class, a stunned/incapacitated mob becomes inactive and cant damage anything, Accuracy debuffs make enimies miss. These are all things you can do in GW2 that the combat is designed around. In a game like WoW the combat is designed with a tank in mind.
For support you use barriers to reduce incoming damage or stop it completely, You cloak your allies so enemies change target, you buff allies to move fast to escape or chase down, you create sheilds to reduce damage. These are all things that can be done b4 or after an ally takes damage in anticipation for that damage being taken. If you heal an ally b4 he takes any damage thats a waste of a heal, but if i buff an ally with a frost sheild the duration of that buff will last long enough for the incoming damage to get reduced.
There is no narrow Tank/healer/Damage holy trinity but their is a Control/Support/Damage holy trinity.
Please people No more posts about there will be "dedicated tanks/healers" NO NO NO NO!!
Guys i have the answer to the thread! How-can-there-be-no-trinity? Becouse the system in gw2 isnt built around the trinity!
Last edited by mmoc2f42a3101f; 2012-02-08 at 09:32 PM.
Older trinity class systems had no damage dealers. It was Tanker/Healer/Controler.Holy trinity = Tank/Healer/Damage <----- This holy trinity is very narrow in design, Leads to tank and spank, Damage dealers are only told what to attack and do nothing else, Healers pay attention to health bars and not the actual encounters, Tanks stand their letting things hit them.
You are way off base on a number of terms and design theory as well. But that's fine, I am not that bothered by it. But felt it was worth pointing out for your future correction/self education.
I think you're over-generalizing as well. People who don't want to heal in WoW don't want to do it because they think standing in one place spamming heals on health bars is boring. (And, imo, it really is)
That's different, entirely, from what you will experience in GW2. In your scenario, if that player "gains aggro" he won't suddenly get one-shot. That's part of what you're missing.
In WoW, the ENTIRE game is designed with the idea that you have tanks, and healers keeping those tanks alive. And as such, bosses have to hit really freaking hard, or else they're not dangerous to the tank.
In GW2, you have no tanks, no healers. As such, enemies won't one-shot you. Yes, it will be dangerous for them to be attacking you for long periods of time, but that's where teamwork comes into play. They're not designed with the idea that you are capable of taking intensely punishing damage the way a tank is. You can self-heal, you can blow defensive cooldowns, you can control your enemy with CC. Your TEAM can control the enemy. Your TEAM can use their utility that provides team support.
In short, if you end up "pulling aggro" and your team decides to ignore you when you start asking for help, yes, it IS their fault. If you join a party, you SHOULD be expected to work with your group and make it work.
The *most* fun I have ever had in WoW was when I was playing my Enhance Shaman in 5-man dungeons, back when I was gearing for T11 content. You know why?
Because I didn't just mindlessly kill the enemy while ignoring my group. I pulled aggro when I felt it necessary, keeping enemies off healers and other squishy people. I off-healed when I felt it necessary, keeping the tank or anybody-else-at-all from dying.
That was fun. That's what I hope to experience in GW2. A player utilizing ALL of his class abilities to win the fight, rather than just mindlessly spamming a DPS rotation. Ignoring CC, healing, and "tank" cooldowns all the while. I don't see how *anybody* can enjoy just doing DPS. And then, when the shit hits the fan, continue sitting there, just doing DPS.
When I play my Warlock, and I see a group wiping, I feel utterly useless. All I can do is sit there and watch the group wipe. Because I can't help my team beyond hopefully killing the enemy faster.
You know the best part of all this? This design allows them to balance both PvE and PvP very easily, because the PvE content may as well be a PvP match, with your enemies AI controlled. They'll still make it so abilities affect PvE and PvP differently, but that's beside the point.
Last edited by DrakeWurrum; 2012-02-08 at 09:57 PM.
I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.
If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.