"Grimoire of Sacrifice" => Warlock the better mage?

[ComputerNerd]

A poor fix which will then be changed yet again.
Like the assist stance.

I am not convinced yet that such an approach is right.

[Jessicka]

This, whether its when there are flying mobs or your character is the one flying, it will be extremely helpful and epitomizes what they are trying to do with these talent trees.

Grimoire of service looks to be a nice bursty cooldown, It wont happen but it would be nice if the second demon split from the first so that there wouldn't be issues of travelling to the target wasting the cooldown.

Grimoire of Supremacy seems like your normal sustained dps boss fight.

So, it's a fix for a fight that happened last tier? Useful. I see other pet classes didn't get similar "fixes." I don't really think spaces in the talent tree should be wasted on fixes for what is ultimately poor encounter design.

As a PvP burst cooldown, it has merit, but is also questionable - for that it should realistically offer more output, but over a much shorter duration.

[Khadjid]

I don't think this was meant as a fix, if you watch the class panels from Blizzcon it sounds more like the devs "giving in" to the high demand of petless warlocks.

Personally I don't mind this talent, I've never felt any attachment to my demons anyways and I've certainly disliked them more than I like them. Having a pet have brought some extra utility, but it has also been damn annoying to rely on those stupid, illogical creatures. More often than not, they've been a limitation and nuisance to me rather than something that makes me feel awesome or unique. The first class I ever picked was a warlock based on the class descriptions on the character creation screen, but I didn't pick it because pets sounded appealing, I chose warlock because they sounded like having an evil personality and that they would be able to handle themselves well on their own.

If they manage to balance this tier of talents to be equal, I will probably change this talent depending on the fight.
Fights needing burst: Grimoire of Service (two pets cooldown)
Fights with multi dotting or no specific needs: Grimoire of Sacrifice (no pet)
Fights needing specific utility granted by pets, or much movement for the player but little for the pet: Grimoire of Service (stronger pets)

If Sacrifice turns out to be the stronger alternative, I most likely won't shed a single tear for losing out on the pet. If any of the other alternatives turns out as the better choice, I won't be devastated but I certainly wouldn't mind them also making pets behave less stupid than they are now.

[smegdawg]

So if their solution involves a gimmicky and situational talent rather than a real fix then I do question really how much blizzard know about their own game.

That talent could become potentially a MUST for that type of fight, and that sounds like downright poor design to me.

Isn't that the point of the new talent system. To be able to respec on the fly for specific encounters. There has always been fights where melee cannot hit the target but range need to. Why would I want a supped up pet who is just gonna stand there and be confused why he can't hit the big scary dragon when I can sacc him and do extra damage.

@Jessicka> Blizzard rehashes old boss mechanic, or straight up copies them, all the time. Have you seen the MoP raids? Can you tell me if they are all ground encounters? Alysrazor was one of my, and I'm sure a bunch of other raiders, favorite fights. The pet issue was the one annoying thing about that fight. Grimoire of Sacrifice ensures that any future fight with similar mechanics will not have that problem

As far as hunters getting a similar talent, I don't see any warlock pet talent trees popping up. Different classes are different.

[Jessicka]

I don't think this was meant as a fix, if you watch the class panels from Blizzcon it sounds more like the devs "giving in" to the high demand of petless warlocks.

Personally I don't mind this talent, I've never felt any attachment to my demons anyways and I've certainly disliked them more than I like them. Having a pet have brought some extra utility, but it has also been damn annoying to rely on those stupid, illogical creatures. More often than not, they've been a limitation and nuisance to me rather than something that makes me feel awesome or unique. The first class I ever picked was a warlock based on the class descriptions on the character creation screen, but I didn't pick it because pets sounded appealing, I chose warlock because they sounded like having an evil personality and that they would be able to handle themselves well on their own.

If they manage to balance this tier of talents to be equal, I will probably change this talent depending on the fight.
Fights needing burst: Grimoire of Service (two pets cooldown)
Fights with multi dotting or no specific needs: Grimoire of Sacrifice (no pet)
Fights needing specific utility granted by pets, or much movement for the player but little for the pet: Grimoire of Service (stronger pets)

If Sacrifice turns out to be the stronger alternative, I most likely won't shed a single tear for losing out on the pet. If any of the other alternatives turns out as the better choice, I won't be devastated but I certainly wouldn't mind them also making pets behave less stupid than they are now.

That "high demand", insofar as I've seen it has had nothing to do with wanting to be a petless Warlock, but about encounter design that caused issues with pets. If Demonic Sacrifice as a talent had never existed before, I'd find it questionable as to whether people would really want it - much like you don't see too many Hunters wanting to go petless. For me, a Warlock without a pet is just as absurd as a Hunter without one.

]

Isn't that the point of the new talent system. To be able to respec on the fly for specific encounters. There has always been fights where melee cannot hit the target but range need to. Why would I want a supped up pet who is just gonna stand there and be confused why he can't hit the big scary dragon when I can sacc him and do extra damage.

You have 2 ranged pets to pick from, in MoP the difference in output between each pet will be literally non-existent; their use will be defined by utility alone.

As to whether going petless would be the most viable option; well yes of course it will be. The moment you need to multi-dot, dropping your pet will inevitably be favorable since a pet can only attack one target.

[smegdawg]

I agree with you on the multi target petless dps, it shows even more that the grimoire tier of talents is heavily dependent on what the encounter calls for.

[Szemere]

A poor fix which will then be changed yet again.
Like the assist stance.

I am not convinced yet that such an approach is right.

Isn't it exactly the same with all kinds of talents? There is always gonna be a best for an encounter. I am just happy, that there is some breathing room. I am currently Destruction, and there is only one set of talents (Nether Ward) that could possibly be traded in for something else, if there is no magic damage I should be hit by in an encounter. Tho there is nothing to switch to as far as I know...

I totally don't mind there being a best for an encounter, as long as I don't have to do the same for every single fight. Don't you think it will be the exact same for every single ability?

Unless you throw in a talent, that is unaffected by masteries and haste, is instacast, and you can choose between a full DoT, a full direct damage, or an immolate-type ability, and has a 15 second duration when it has a DoT component, and 15 second cooldown if it has an instant damage component, unless you add in a set of 3 of such talents, there is always gonna be a best talent for the fight.
And even then, you sometimes might prefer direct damage over the other ones, due to the fact that on some fights you don't want to leave DoTs, or you need to deal a certain amount of damage ASAP, and then it would be obvious that the direct damage one will always be the talent of choice. And if you would nerf that one, on other fights where DoTs are okay, the DoT one will obviously be better.

TLDR: Dude, please give me an example of a talent that is not a mandatory choice on a specific type of fight. Flying fights are as rare as it gets, and on other fights it should be a thing of preference, doesn't get much better to me...

[Daedius]

Using that will leave you out of various procs you get off pets, and/or buff off pet - though would be nice to see the % increase.

---------- Post added 2012-02-09 at 08:16 PM ----------

Destrutive Influence can't be used with GoS, so it's a design fail, must be redone.

Design fail? There's 2 other talents at that same level... Increase damage of your pets, and summon a 2nd pet for 30 seconds...

Speaking of which, 2nd pet for 30 seconds sounds sweet for Destruction lock off 2 imps - assuming the pet's the same as that that is already out, chain procs?

[Gohzerlock]

I still can't believe all of you think we're mages without our pets....

[Voidgazer]

Warlock was, is and will be a pet having class. This talent is obviously intended for situational fights when your pet might be ineffective. Like flying on Alysrazor as affli. On other encounters pet will do more damage than boost you by sacrificing.

At least it should, otherwise it would be a really failed design decision by Blizz.

[ComputerNerd]

The talent should suit an encounter for a reason other than it being a "fix" for a broken mechanic.
It should be an optional, and in select cases desirable talent because it brings something useful to it, not because something is broken.

Jessicka got it spot on, in where it could shine on multi-target fights where the contribution of the pet is otherwise limited to single-target.
That is the reason why it should be used.

[Deleted]

Design fail? There's 2 other talents at that same level... Increase damage of your pets, and summon a 2nd pet for 30 seconds...

Blizzard : We're going to give you all of the "mandatory" talents to your class spec. We want players to be able to experience the full power of their class, so we're going to award certain talents straight-out.

Sissygirl69 : " But Goatcaller, I want to play destruction and choose GoSacrifice, why can't I... you said that players will experience the full possibilities but with GoS I can't even have the benefit of my so called " Ultimate " spell, you are unfair, and liar.... "


" If you want the grimoire of sacrifice and play destruction then you can't even have the benefit of your ultimate spell and vice versa

Talent VS Spell is a failure. "


Design Fail.

Jessicka got it spot on, in where it could shine on multi-target fights where the contribution of the pet is otherwise limited to single-target.
That is the reason why it should be used.

Enjoy the pet summon, this pet swap, longer than ever, and many others problems especially with demo.

[rhorle]

As to whether going petless would be the most viable option; well yes of course it will be. The moment you need to multi-dot, dropping your pet will inevitably be favorable since a pet can only attack one target.

Its a damage and survival buff. Its hard to say exactly what situations it will be useful in without knowing what the numbers are. Remember that in order to use it you are trading the chance at "super demons" or "two demons". It will shine more in fights with Special mechanics. Like say Tendons on spine of Deathwing, or Alysrazor when flying.

Also just because it is a multi-dot fight doesn't mean your pet on one target isn't still beneficial. It is still extra dps on one target. DPS to one target is still useful otherwise why would you be doting/damaging another target? The usefulness will always be directly tied to how much more damage it grants then two demons or demonx10%(plus "super demon abilities). On any fight.

[Count Zero]

Let's not let perfect be the enemy of good.

This will be a better situation for some fights than the current one of our pets not being in range or despawning. Ideally that wouldn't be an issue ... but let's not forget that we're getting an improvement, even if it's not perfection.

I don't see what the worry about which option will be the best for dps, tho ... because there will be so many scenarios that it will be impossible for any one to be the best. First who knows how things will synergize with spec. Then there's encounter type (single target ? one or two adds ? many adds ?). Even now you can't answer "which is the best warlock spec?" because it depends on many things.

Personally I can't wait to dominate with petless demonology

[Jessicka]

Its a damage and survival buff. Its hard to say exactly what situations it will be useful in without knowing what the numbers are. Remember that in order to use it you are trading the chance at "super demons" or "two demons". It will shine more in fights with Special mechanics. Like say Tendons on spine of Deathwing, or Alysrazor when flying.

Also just because it is a multi-dot fight doesn't mean your pet on one target isn't still beneficial. It is still extra dps on one target. DPS to one target is still useful otherwise why would you be doting/damaging another target? The usefulness will always be directly tied to how much more damage it grants then two demons or demonx10%(plus "super demon abilities). On any fight.

It pretty much stands to reason that the game will still be roughly balanced around single target output; and therefore that all three Grimoires will offer similar DPS increases over a 6-10 minute fight. The reason SPriests and to an extent Moonkin are better at multi-dotting than Affliction is that their overall damage isn't split with their pet, and so their DoTs are stronger, and so when they spread those DoTs around they have a bigger impact; it's exactly this that allowed those two specs to dominate for virtually this entire expansion. It stands to reason therefore, that sacrificing our pet would take it's damage, give it to us directly, strengthening our DoTs and thus grant us that same effect. As for the survivability component, that basically makes up for the loss of capacity to take up Soul Link.

The talent itself basically gives up pets' utility, but offers damage, potentially a lot more damage than those other talents ever could - I think there's something very wrong with that in terms of damaging class concept; I like having my Demons, and was disappointed when the pre-Cata promise of choosing our pets based on utility rather than damage wasn't realised, I'm really hoping they deliver this time and yet the prospect of this talent taking them away completely seems pretty rediculous.

As an alternative, it actually struck me a while ago, just prior to the Demonology Mastery fix that that bug putting so much damage in one place wasn't necessarily such a bad thing. I'd much rather see them split Grimoire of Supremacy up and have the talents offer better Guardians or better Minions; that way we still get the situational choices; Service for a short term DPS cooldown, Supremacy for more baseline from upgraded minions, and the third Grimoire as an extra big cooldown for burning through specific phases.

[Deleted]

when i made my warlock in vanilla it was because i saw the demonic sacrifice talent and it sounded very very cool to me. im happy they are bringing this feature back, even if you'd have to resummon a pet every 5 minutes (maybe a quality of life glyph can step in and extend the duration?).

what bothers me is the talents that require you to have a pet alive, like soul link or that immunity talent that takes away half of your pet's hp. will those not work at all? what if grimoire of sacrifice would only reduce pet damage to like 10%, while buffing your own dmg by say, 20%. that could have a cool demonic feeling while letting us keep soul link etc. also different specs gain dps different dps increases from their pet, so i'm curious how they will approach that part (if they even will do that).

also the dmg buff from GoSac has to be good enough to make up for the loss of your pet's dmg as well as give an advantage to that, since you spend a talent point on it.