The glory of engineering and the myth of JC&BS

[Deleted]

I like to read guides, even of classes that I do not play, just to get an idea of how to play them. I also read this “Improve my DPS”-Threads, just for the fun of seeing guys complaining “You got 20 mastery/20 str instead of a 40 str!”, when somebody is like 5000 DPS short of what he should be at.

I also accepted, that it is next to impossible to discuss in that kind of thread, but there is one point (1,5 by now) that make me thinking about starting a discussion again: Professions!

Be it in Guides or DPS-Threads, you always see some kind of this list, when it comes down to professions:

Alchemy Mixology adds an additional 80 strength on to [Flask of Titanic Strength] and increases the duration of all alchemical consumables
Blacksmithing Smithing allows for an extra socket in your bracers and gloves netting 100 strength (2x [Bold Queen's Garnet]).
Enchanting [Enchant Ring - Strength] can be used on both rings for a total of 80 additional strength
Engineering Engineers can add [Synapse Springs] to gloves (480 strength * 10s/ 60s cooldown = passive 80 strength) and it stacks with normal enchants
Herbalism Herbalists have the castable [Lifeblood] ability (480 haste * 20s / 2 min cooldown = passive 80 haste)
Inscription [Lionsmane Inscription] is an alternative to the Therazane faction reward shoulder enchant
Jewelcrafting 3 x [Bold Chimera's Eye] to socket into your gear instead of 3 x [Bold Queen's Garnet] equates to 51 extra strength
Leatherworking Leatherworkers can add [Draconic Embossment] to wrists and is 80 strength superior to what enchanters can provide.
Mining Miners receive a 120 stamina buff
Skinning Skinners receive a 80 critical strike rating bonus
Tailoring Tailors can sew [Swordguard Embroidery] into cloaks but it does not stack with [Enchant Cloak - Greater Critical Strike] so it's generally considered less desirable

(This one is taken from the Unholy-DK-Guide @ EJ)

Often in combination with a sentence like “As you see Alchemy, Enchanting, Engineering, Inscription and Leatherworking all provide 80 strength” in DPS Threads there is some kind of “Drop Alchemy for BS, that is 10 str/agi/int more!”. My point: Why does never anybody mind Engineering?

Every player/theorycrafter knows about favoring “on use”-trinkets about proc-trinkets (if the stats are about the same), because you may line up the on-use-effect with Cooldowns, may use them, while there is a burst phase or a high damage buff/debuff and, other way around, there is no chance that the proc occurs while phase-transition, heavy movement etc.

Why does (next to) nobody think about this when it comes to professions? Lining the springs up with personal cooldowns, debuffs like the one after the ice-/lightning-phase @ hagara, execute phases and so on, will highly improve the value of the 480 stats for 10 seconds. – You got no cooldowns (haha)? There is no high/low damage phase? – Just use it on cooldown and be fine with a value even to 80 stat points flat from other professions.

It’s a little smart-alecky, but anybody who complains about taking BS over alchemy, because it is 10 stat points ahead, should keep this point in mind, too.

1 point done, 0,5 left: Since there are epic gems, you commonly read things like “Drop JC, and get BS, it’s a gain of 49 stat points”, but 99% of the people asking for help got 0-3 epic gems (only mixed colors, most of the time). So this tip is totally pointless – I know that next to nobody of the “brainiacs” discussing in the “Improve my DPS”-Threads will read this thread, but I just think it’s ridiculous to get some new/very casual player to waste thousands of gold and/or a ton of time for nothing.

[waat]

Pretty accurate overall.

Engineering is amazingly good for any class with a 1min cooldown, and pretty damn solid for any with cooldowns divisible by 1min if you manage to line it up properly.

Like a frost DK. 480STR every time you pop pillar of frost is A LOT stronger than a static +80str

It's also great for any class whose big nuke is on a ~9sec cd, as you can get two of your big nukes in the duration of the springs.

[Radux]

This is, indeed, true for DPS. And to a lesser extent, healers.

However, BS & JC are still the top winners for tanks (excluding Bears) right now. BS & JC still offers maximum benefit for Mastery/Avoidance.

[Eazy]

I must agree with you... I don't understand why I haven't enchanted my gloves since I got a new pair. (I'm engineering since Wrath of the Lich King, was skinner before) It's nice CD.

[Ryme]

People often skip over Engineering because if you miss you CD, even by a few seconds, it becomes the worst profession.

[Prostyle]

People often skip over Engineering because if you miss you CD, even by a few seconds, it becomes the worst profession.

How so? wouldn't it be just as good otherwise?

[Radux]

How so? wouldn't it be just as good otherwise?

Each profession gives +80 [stat]. Engineering gives an average of +80 [stat] if you use it on cooldown. So if you don't use it when it comes off cooldown, it looses the spot of 'equal'. The only way you could ignore that is if you can line it up with other cooldowns or you save it ~10 seconds or something for a huge needed burst time in an encounter (ala Tendons on Spine).

[Deleted]

[/COLOR]

Each profession gives +80 [stat]. Engineering gives an average of +80 [stat] if you use it on cooldown. So if you don't use it when it comes off cooldown, it looses the spot of 'equal'. The only way you could ignore that is if you can line it up with other cooldowns or you save it ~10 seconds or something for a huge needed burst time in an encounter (ala Tendons on Spine).

You are, of course, right, but it is possible, that it viable to save the springs for a lot more than just 10 seconds:

For any DD the stat boost from springs is like a +XXX DPS for 10 seconds (affected by gear, talents etc), any buff/debuff that increases his dmg by a %, will also increase the +DPS from springs. The increase by main stats is (quite) linear, so if 80 stat is 160 dps, 480 will be around 960 dps (for the time it lasts). If there now is a buff, that increases the dmg by a %, like Electrocution [hagara, dmg taken increased by 100% for 15 seconds]. In a 5 min (300 seconds) fight with 3 electrocution the 80 stats will increase the DMG done by:

160dmg/s * 255s = 40 800
(160dmg/s * 45s) +100% = 14 400

Total: 55 200

If you only use springs while electrocute (3 times, only every 1:40 min):

(960dmg/s * 30s) +100% = 57 600

So it still would be viable, ofc this math is not correct, but it is realistic, I also know that there are no 3 electrocutes in 5 min fight, but still: It is just an example, that it is very possible to save the springs for more then 10 secs and let them still be viable (you will never let them rest for more then 2 min, because you could have used them once again alrdy, so waiting 1:40 is alrdy on of the worst cases).

[Stevoman]

The simple fact is it depends on your class's short-term CDs.

Engineering is worst-in-slot for feral because in 4T13 our short-term CD is 27s, and any on-use agility gain can cause the dreaded spell refresh error.

If you can get max use out of Springs every cooldown and your class's short-term CDs line up with engineering, it's the best. Otherwise, it quickly falls behind a flat 80 agi/int/str.

In a 5 min (300 seconds) fight with 3 electrocution the 80 stats will increase the DMG done by:

160dmg/s * 255s = 40 800
(160dmg/s * 45s) +100% = 14 400

Total: 55 200

If you only use springs while electrocute (3 times, only every 1:40 min):

(960dmg/s * 30s) +100% = 57 600

So it still would be viable, ofc this math is not correct, but it is realistic

It's wrong and totally unrealistic.

Hagara is only in electrocute for 15s, so the correct Springs calculation is:

(960dmg/s * 15s) +100% = 28 800
(960dmg/s * 15s) +0% = 14 400

Total: 43 200

[OrlyAurora]

People often skip over Engineering because if you miss you CD, even by a few seconds, it becomes the worst profession.

You do know that you can macro a CD along with the Synapse springs? Every piece of gear is coded by a number. Trinkets are 13 & 14. Gloves are like 8 or 9 can't remember. A macro would be like this
#Show Tooltip
/cast Pillar of Frost
/use 14

[Hottage]

You do know that you can macro a CD along with the Synapse springs? Every piece of gear is coded by a number. Trinkets are 13 & 14. Gloves are like 8 or 9 can't remember. A macro would be like this
#Show Tooltip
/cast Pillar of Frost
/use 14

/use 10

For gloves.

[Deleted]

The simple fact is it depends on your class's short-term CDs.

Engineering is worst-in-slot for feral because in 4T13 our short-term CD is 27s, and any on-use agility gain can cause the dreaded spell refresh error.

If you can get max use out of Springs every cooldown and your class's short-term CDs line up with engineering, it's the best. Otherwise, it quickly falls behind a flat 80 agi/int/str.



It's wrong and totally unrealistic.

Hagara is only in electrocute for 15s, so the correct Springs calculation is:

(960dmg/s * 15s) +100% = 28 800
(960dmg/s * 15s) +0% = 14 400

Total: 43 200

You just did not get my point.. That was a example how engineering CAN be viable, even if you use it not on cooldown, only stack it with some enormus CDs like electrocute. I even wrote, that this is not correct, because there are no 3 electrocutes in 5 min.. i just took electrocute as one example, because this is an effect everybody should now. (Could also be magmaws headphase etc.)

AND your math is not even logic at all:

Hagara is only in electrocute for 15s, so the correct Springs calculation is:

(960dmg/s * 15s) +100% = 28 800
(960dmg/s * 15s) +0% = 14 400

why 15s? springs only last 10s, so since 960 dps is the dmg from only springs, it will only be taken into concern for 10 seconds. 10 seconds for EVERY "electrocute" like i wrote:

In a 5 min (300 seconds) fight with 3 electrocution

and again:

I also know that there are no 3 electrocutes in 5 min fight

That's why my math is - for my given setting - correct: There will be 3 electrocutes of each 15 seconds (=45s), the 80 [stat] would be always active, for the electrocutes:

(160dmg/s * 45s) +100% = 14 400

as well, as for the "normal" phases:

160dmg/s * 255s = 40 800

so that's:

Total: 55 200

For the springs it would only be active for 10s of the 15s of each electrocute(=30s):

(960dmg/s * 30s) +100% = 57 600

Like i said (several times now): Neither will a hagara fight take 5 min, nor there will be 3 electrocute in the 5 min fight, nor is my math totale correct, because i would also have to take into concern that there are several seconda, where you can't to any dmg (lightning, ice if you can't reach a crystal) so there are no 255s where you profit from 80 [stat], there are less. - But that all is not my point, since it was a reply and i was only wanted to prove wrong:

The only way you could ignore that is if you can line it up with other cooldowns or you save it ~10 seconds

And that is exactly what my - not realistic, but correct under the given setting - example and the - in the setting! - correct math shows.

btw:

(960dmg/s * 15s) +100% = 28 800
(960dmg/s * 15s) +0% = 14 400

Total: 43 200

Is totaly wrong, since the whole point of this thread is "use springs while a CD/buff/debuff" is active.. and why the hell would u use springs only twice in a 5 min fight EVER?

wait 59s - synaps - wait 1:59m - synaps - wait 59s

That is the worst(worstworstworst) setting for synaps, would be a fight were you can't use synaps at pull because you need them after exact 59 seconds, then can't use them because you need them after 1:59m again and the fight ends 59s later, so you can't use them again. But did you notice? That's (for this ridiculous unrealistic setting) only a fight length of 3:56m? You will always use synaps at least 3 times in a 5 min fight.

AND why the hell do you calcuate with 15s? Synaps lasts only 10 sec, so the 960 bonusDPS will only last 10 sec of electrucute..

Dear me! ... you prolly are from the blacksmith lobby and are afraid that someone doesn't drop engineering for BS and your laber union will not get the membership fee - how much is it? 10% of every pattern one of the dazzled noobs buys for skilling?!

[Makoblade]

JC is the weakest profession, courtesy of new epic gems.

Engineering is fine, bordering one of the best options IF you don't already have an on use trinket, or somehow can work with two exclusive on-use abilities. As an arcane mage with shard of woe, synapse springs value is diminished greatly as I am forced to choose between the two during the majority of my class cooldowns.

[Mizzeeh]

This is, indeed, true for DPS. And to a lesser extent, healers.

However, BS & JC are still the top winners for tanks (excluding Bears) right now. BS & JC still offers maximum benefit for Mastery/Avoidance.

It's worth noting, not to start an argument or anything, that if you value stamina over avoidance(as you probably do if you're a Warrior/Paladin), Leatherworking can come out ahead of at least JC, if not BS as well seeing as you're trading out of dodge(or a very undervalued(due to being since WotLK) stamina) into stamina.

[Ryme]

You do know that you can macro a CD along with the Synapse springs? Every piece of gear is coded by a number. Trinkets are 13 & 14. Gloves are like 8 or 9 can't remember. A macro would be like this
#Show Tooltip
/cast Pillar of Frost
/use 14

Perfectly aware, however doing this voids any and all benefit that the OP is talking about making it a moot point.

[Pikapika]

You do know that you can macro a CD along with the Synapse springs? Every piece of gear is coded by a number. Trinkets are 13 & 14. Gloves are like 8 or 9 can't remember. A macro would be like this
#Show Tooltip
/cast Pillar of Frost
/use 14

Why would you cast Pillar first?

[Deleted]

JC is the weakest profession, courtesy of new epic gems.

Engineering is fine, bordering one of the best options IF you don't already have an on use trinket, or somehow can work with two exclusive on-use abilities. As an arcane mage with shard of woe, synapse springs value is diminished greatly as I am forced to choose between the two during the majority of my class cooldowns.

Did you read my 0,5 point at the end? How many DDs are there will full (optimal!) epic gems? As long as you got at least 3 blue gems, JC still providing 81 [stat].

[Ashbringerx]

I may be in left field with that (so correct me if I'm wrong) but I think the Synapse Springs act like an on-use trinkets which means you cannot use it at the same time as your on-use trinket, losing valuable DPS. Apparatus and Rotting Skull comes to mind.
While swapping trinket is easy, swapping profession is not

[Sliippy]

I like to read guides, even of classes that I do not play, just to get an idea of how to play them. I also read this “Improve my DPS”-Threads, just for the fun of seeing guys complaining “You got 20 mastery/20 str instead of a 40 str!”, when somebody is like 5000 DPS short of what he should be at.

I also accepted, that it is next to impossible to discuss in that kind of thread, but there is one point (1,5 by now) that make me thinking about starting a discussion again: Professions!

Be it in Guides or DPS-Threads, you always see some kind of this list, when it comes down to professions:



(This one is taken from the Unholy-DK-Guide @ EJ)

Often in combination with a sentence like “As you see Alchemy, Enchanting, Engineering, Inscription and Leatherworking all provide 80 strength” in DPS Threads there is some kind of “Drop Alchemy for BS, that is 10 str/agi/int more!”. My point: Why does never anybody mind Engineering?

Every player/theorycrafter knows about favoring “on use”-trinkets about proc-trinkets (if the stats are about the same), because you may line up the on-use-effect with Cooldowns, may use them, while there is a burst phase or a high damage buff/debuff and, other way around, there is no chance that the proc occurs while phase-transition, heavy movement etc.

Why does (next to) nobody think about this when it comes to professions? Lining the springs up with personal cooldowns, debuffs like the one after the ice-/lightning-phase @ hagara, execute phases and so on, will highly improve the value of the 480 stats for 10 seconds. – You got no cooldowns (haha)? There is no high/low damage phase? – Just use it on cooldown and be fine with a value even to 80 stat points flat from other professions.

It’s a little smart-alecky, but anybody who complains about taking BS over alchemy, because it is 10 stat points ahead, should keep this point in mind, too.

1 point done, 0,5 left: Since there are epic gems, you commonly read things like “Drop JC, and get BS, it’s a gain of 49 stat points”, but 99% of the people asking for help got 0-3 epic gems (only mixed colors, most of the time). So this tip is totally pointless – I know that next to nobody of the “brainiacs” discussing in the “Improve my DPS”-Threads will read this thread, but I just think it’s ridiculous to get some new/very casual player to waste thousands of gold and/or a ton of time for nothing.

No one thinks of it like that because for the profs that arent engine you have the stat as passive. So it's always there, unlike synapse springs which i use on cd. (macro'd to my judge) But, if I had bs as my 2nd it'd be an extra 100 str at all times. Not 480 that evens out to 80 over the time of the fight because of the up time and cd.

[tucuxia]

Passive bonuses will probably always edge out engineering bonuses unless they stop sharing a CD with trinks & abilities, but people who choose engi instead of JC or BS also want it for non-raid related reasons (the toys). None of the other professions have the cool toys the engi has.