Gamers and their self-entitlement

[Liara]

Your example is bad on many levels, mostly because there is no regulations for gaming and the devs can put any sort of claim to their game and then later just shake it off with "game experience may wary" tag. Same goes with mainstream media industry on this front, whom has been in many times proven to be quite much in the leash of the industry for the sake of exclusivity and shit. The car industry can't rely on that.

One of the main reason usually the more justified user based reviews of metacritic in long term are being shunned off is because it eats off the "credibility" of the game set up by journalists. Best example is Escapists 100 / 100 score for Dragon Age 2.

I agree that it's not the best example, however I simply used the same analogy of the person I quoted and tried to make it fit better.
However, a developer can't say "feature X will be in this game", and then when said feature doesn't actually appear, attribute it to 'varying game experience'. It's not there, plain and simple.
But when a developer announces plans, and then some of those don't make it, there's nothing you can do. They wanted to do something, and in the end weren't able to. Tough break for the gamer. If he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to buy it. Bitching about the developers "being lazy asses who can't do anything right" is simply ignorant (and extremely asinine).

[Deleted]

Artists receive a salary to make art. I doubt they give a single shit at night while banging their wife, or playing with their kids, or watching a movie or listening to a song, whether or not the entire wow population is wearing their art.

Guess what, there's a lot of people who hate a lot of the armor sets in this game. Now, we can be visibly vocal about it. How many Paladins do you actually see in Tier 5 or 7 walking around? You know why the answer to that question is "not many"? Because the art team did a SHIT JOB on those sets, and if it was imposed upon us to wear them these past years, we WEREN'T HAPPY ABOUT IT.

Now, why don't YOU go die in a fire.

No, don't waste trees. Just throw yourself into the sun.

Even if I disagree with the guy you're attempting to humiliate, I gotta point something out to you here..

Game artists DO care about what people think of what they create. First of all, they create it because they imagine it. This is not the kind of people who stand behind a counter at a shop and care little weither they service one or thousands of people.. they're not your average hotline employee who does'nt give a rats ass if your network is'nt working or not. They're artists. Believe it or not, but even game artists likes when their work is appreciated. I'll give you the end of the stick here and agree with you, not alot of X walks around in Y armor because Z armor is more appealing to them, but they're still out there somewhere, you just happen to not see them. Same way, do you believe the artist who made your favorite tier which is perhaps also alot of other peoples favorite tear, does not enjoy that YOU are enjoying their work? They do. I know a few concept artists, and when the silent costumers use their work or the vocal minority praises it, they get happy. If the vocal minority speaks out against it or the silent mass never uses their work, it's discouraging.

Do you REALLY think the art team of Blizzard does not basically change weekly? It does. New artists are pulled in, old artists end their jobs there. Note, it's not because they did bad work (Or atleast most often not) it's because their ideas were used, they made their art and they can happilly walk to a new project. But then there's the 'main' group of artists who spends years with Blizzard on one or more projects - the one I was talking about above. They create, and recieved feedback through players or the vocal minority. They DO care if you like their work or not.

Sorry, just had to shove this whole thing in, as concept artists in particular are a 'special' brand of employees at any work station when it comes to design and development of games. Just know, they DO care how you like their art or not. It's not just a paycheck when you pour your mind and heart into stuff.

[Vayshan]

I bet that all you out there who say devs are lazy or lack something, have no clue what it takes what so ever. Though I may not fully know what it takes to make a game, I have done the modding and customizing for some games in the past. Eventhough what I made was just a small addition, it still was a lot of work for something so little.

Quake 3 was (at it's time) one the best shooters out there and easy as hell to mod for. It could take me days to make a good balanced map (using existing textures!), then it could take a day or two to test the map and see if it was decent. All in all about a week or so to make a single (small/medium sized) map that worked out good or acceptable at least. I also made lots of bots and I could spend a full day on just one acceptable bot. Why so long? Because a bot takes a lot more than just editing a script, sure if you like 100% re-used stuff it's just editing a little script but I don't need to tell anyone here how fond ppl are of re-used content. A new bot comes with it's own skin, behaviour and flavour text (or even its own model and animations if you got the knowledge, time and tools for it). Editing the bot script can be done with a script editor, yh nice and fast you might say, not if you don't know how to use it or what everything means and does to the bot (ofcourse developers will know all their stuff for this, but it's still way more work than just a click of a button and you actually need knowledge and a brain for it). Next came the skin. No, you do not use MS Paint for that! You use an actual program like Photoshop (which also requires you to have knowledge on how to work it). A single good looking skin could take up to 10+ layers (with an alpha channel mixed in there) and took several (2-4) hours on average, making use of existing materials. Making team colors was just a few clicks away. Then came the testing and tweaking which could take hours as well. Almost a full days work for a single bot using material that was alrdy there and no custom mesh, animations or sounds. Since I made these for friends and myself I did not have to consider what the public would think of these or if they would justify the price they'd cost. If I did it would take about 3 times longer to make one (new models/animations/sounds would have to be included or it would've been a half assed job that did not warrant its pricetag).

I don't want to know the nightmare of doing this with the pressure of a community (who thinks I'm lazy or don't know my stuff and considder me completely incompetent in doing my job), a deadline, sales or a money hungry company looking over my shoulder all the time. The tools today may be more advanced and allow everything to go faster, but stuff is also more complex to make these days. All this being said, not every company is like this and some will still be more prone to rushing games and delivering bad products to cater to the masses or for a quick buck.

[ragnarokvr1]

Kasperio, if I wear Tier 6 on my Paladin, it's because I appreciate the work of the girl or guy who drew Tier 6 THE MOST. I dedicate my appreciation to her/him. If I'm forced to wear something else, that doesn't mean I like the artist, not necessarily, or not as much.

I would never say "don't wear xyz because it's ugly", I'm just saying "I'm wearing xyz because that's the artist whose work I appreciate the most.". It's more honest to the artist than forcing a million Paladins to look the same.

[Wilian]

Reminds me of this Mass Effect 3 shit.


Collectors Edition from Gamestop - 80$
Standard Edition from Origin - 60$
ME Action Figures Series 1 (4-Pack) - 75$
ME Action Figures Series 2 (4-Pack) - 75$
The Art of the Mass Effect Universe - 40$
PlayStation 3 Slim Limited Mass Effect 3 Vault - 90$
Xbox 360 Slim Limited Mass Effect 3 Vault - 90$
iOS Game - 8$

Total = 518$

518$ to play the full game when you add up all the extra content the shit brings in.

Then of course the PR response.

Because they want content that costs $518 to get and only want to pay the $60 that is absolutely necessary to play ane enjoy the game. That's some people's reason, anyway, but those folks generally don't want to accept having only the bare minimum required. They want everything, which is fair, but either don't want to pay for it or want to dictate their own terms, which is, well, less fair.

So 60e for a game is nowdays the bare boned version on which you can start to build your experience.

I don't know which disgusts me more. This business model, the PR around it or the drones who lap it up and think it's fucking best thing to happen ever since sliced bread.

[Deleted]

Kasperio, if I wear Tier 6 on my Paladin, it's because I appreciate the work of the girl or guy who drew Tier 6 THE MOST. I dedicate my appreciation to her/him. If I'm forced to wear something else, that doesn't mean I like the artist, not necessarily, or not as much.

I would never say "don't wear xyz because it's ugly", I'm just saying "I'm wearing xyz because that's the artist whose work I appreciate the most.". It's more honest to the artist than forcing a million Paladins to look the same.

I completely agree to that! I'm sorry if it came across diffrently, it was merely the statement that "Artists don't care" which had me a bit upset. Because they DO care. Transmogrification is an excellent tool and I wholeheartedly applaud it so hard that my entire house resonates. . . I need a new house this one's broken. That aside, though, just don't think of artists or concept artists as 'paycheck collecting workforce' they're artists because they enjoy creating stuff that is visually appealing. Sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail, but they really DO try hard to accomplish something with it. Not just line up the next tier of crap for you so you can transmogrify it. They DO try.

[Vayshan]

Artists receive a salary to make art. I doubt they give a single shit at night while banging their wife, or playing with their kids, or watching a movie or listening to a song, whether or not the entire wow population is wearing their art.

Guess what, there's a lot of people who hate a lot of the armor sets in this game. Now, we can be visibly vocal about it. How many Paladins do you actually see in Tier 5 or 7 walking around? You know why the answer to that question is "not many"? Because the art team did a SHIT JOB on those sets, and if it was imposed upon us to wear them these past years, we WEREN'T HAPPY ABOUT IT.

Personal opinion! If they rly did a shit job no one would wear them. You cannot please everyone is the prime example you just pointed out. You have no clue what it takes to make those sets so don't even talk about artists doing a 'shit job' when you yourself did a shit job at critisizing inconstructively.

---------- Post added 2012-02-09 at 04:40 PM ----------

Reminds me of this Mass Effect 3 shit.


Collectors Edition from Gamestop - 80$
Standard Edition from Origin - 60$
ME Action Figures Series 1 (4-Pack) - 75$
ME Action Figures Series 2 (4-Pack) - 75$
The Art of the Mass Effect Universe - 40$
PlayStation 3 Slim Limited Mass Effect 3 Vault - 90$
Xbox 360 Slim Limited Mass Effect 3 Vault - 90$
iOS Game - 8$

Total = 518$

518$ to play the full game when you add up all the extra content the shit brings in.

You don't need those action figures, art book, both consoles versions of the Vault, both normal and CE or iOS game to play the full game. Dunno how you buy your games, but if it's this way... you should stop.

So 60e for a game is nowdays the bare boned version on which you can start to build your experience.

I don't know which disgusts me more. This business model, the PR around it or the drones who lap it up and think it's fucking best thing to happen ever since sliced bread.

This is game dependand, though sadly true in a lot of cases. For €60 I'd expect a game that has more gameplay value than 1 day. It may be a full game but it does not warrant the full €60 imo, unless it has tremendous replay value.

Digging into the past I had Super Metroid for the SNES. It costed me around €80-€90 (with todays currency). I finished the game the first time in 22 hours but I kep playing it over and over again because it had an amazing theme and feeling to it. This is something you simply cannot say about the majority of todays games. WTF ever happened to the gaming industry?

[Hraklea]

Digging into the past I had Super Metroid for the SNES. It costed me around €80-€90 (with todays currency). I finished the game the first time in 22 hours but I kep playing it over and over again because it had an amazing theme and feeling to it. This is something you simply cannot say about the majority of todays games. WTF ever happened to the gaming industry?

Nothing happened, you just grow up.

[Flextt]

Digging into the past I had Super Metroid for the SNES. It costed me around €80-€90 (with todays currency). I finished the game the first time in 22 hours but I kep playing it over and over again because it had an amazing theme and feeling to it. This is something you simply cannot say about the majority of todays games. WTF ever happened to the gaming industry?

They have concentrated into massive conglomerates with producers instead of designers at the top. It has been a long time since Ubisoft, EA and Activision actually designed a game on their own.
The designers wants:
- unlimited funds
- unlimited time
- a great product

The producer wants:
- a reasonable return of investment
- happy stockholders
How do you streamline interests like that? You do not take risks, promote blockbusters for safety reasons, but you sacrifice diversity and niche products for it.
Many people's most fond memories of video games in our age range (20-40) are from a time, when video games were regarded as unimportant media and most companies were not even remotely as large as they have become today. As producers are nowdays the only way to run a non-indie production like a video game, they have also massively gained influence over projects.
Please do not understand me as some bat-crap crazy anti-capitalism activist, it just feels like a viable explanation from over a decade of observing the branch

[Wilian]

---------- Post added 2012-02-09 at 04:40 PM ----------

[/COLOR]
You don't need those action figures, art book, both consoles versions of the Vault, both normal and CE or iOS game to play the full game. Dunno how you buy your games, but if it's this way... you should stop.

All of them has DLC attached that has impact on the "full" game as you described the 60$ version. The funny thing is, even the PR dude says it's just the bare bone version, the minimum required to finish the game. Supporting this sort of business model is just plain ridiculous.

[Edge-]

Tone it down guys, there are a few too many personal attacks going on.

[Hraklea]

Supporting this sort of business model is just plain ridiculous.

So DLCs and exclusive contents should be forbidden?

[Wilian]

So DLCs and exclusive contents should be forbidden?

There's good way to deal with DLC and then there's bad.

Good is to offer extra content, sort of mini expansion packs. Look at FO NV for example, or even ME2 with lots of it after published DLC to give more longevity for the game after it's release.

Then there's bad, when you have a game that's going to be released but to get the "full experience", you're forced to buy tons of shit just to get all sorts of DLC attached to them because as admitted already, all of them add missions/affect the end game somehow. That's straight out milking out on people who already paid for the, as the PR dude said, bare bone version of the game which alone is not cheap in today's market. And it's already content that is ready and done, but detached from the game for the sake of just printing more money.

[Hraklea]

There's good way to deal with DLC and then there's bad. [...] And it's already content that is ready and done, but detached from the game for the sake of just printing more money.

But do you have a solution rather than "not to buy what you think it might be an expensive bare bone version"?

[Wilian]

But do you have a solution rather than "not to buy what you think it might be an expensive bare bone version"?

There is no other solution but it will not happen because the sheer fan base that Bioware has somehow feels that it's a gift for them and they keep buying it and saying how awesome it is that things that in the past would've been just part of the game naturally suddenly is exclusive for them when they pay for it.
Just one look at BSN (What an horrible hive of social deviates and creepy people) makes it fairly clear that the sheep enviroment of it would lap any sort of shit it can as long as there is a label N7 on it.

Edit: And I don't blame EA as a company cashing in on such idiocity. I just hate how it affects average gamer in form of inferior products for still quite high price.

[Hraklea]

...it will not happen because the sheer fan base that Bioware has somehow feels that it's a gift for them and they keep buying it and saying how awesome it is that things that in the past would've been just part of the game naturally suddenly is exclusive for them when they pay for it.

I couldn't agree more.

[Revrant]

And while I love wearing my Tier 4 set - I understand the blow this was dealt to their art team. Because...this means that for every piece they create, most people are going to ignore it. It's going to get harder and harder to prove that they're needed and they're likely to get themselves downsized. This results in even WORSE armor sets, and the quality will continue to tank.

That's such a pessimistic way to look at it, and I dismiss all artists who feel this way, instead of making a set or quest armor or whatever and having it thrown away into an abyss after being used up players will be wearing your armor FOREVER, because they love it and want to wear it over everything, and they'll make new armors that other players will want to wear forever. If anything from my viewpoint it makes the armors even more rewarding and I'd want to design something even more eye catching, so I can browse onto mmo-champion five or six years down the line and see the world first defeat of Sargeras and see one of the best players in the game pridefully wearing a set I made during Wrath, or Cata, or MoP.

In summary, the glass is half full, madam.

As for the OP, and many of these replies some of which are veiled retaliation against the SWTOR outcry via being developer apologists, I both sympathize and criticize. There are indeed entitled players out there who whine and cry no matter what, but I think a large chunk of the replies are in response to legitimate concerns and criticisms lodged against certain developers. Blizzard made many mistakes with Cata, which I blame primarily on new hands on the reins, it isn't entitled to want quality content when you're paying for it, but many would say it is. I would say that I draw a line between falsely entitled and actually entitled, and community zealots for these games essentially hold to the opinion that actually entitled doesn't exist, where the babies feel they're entitled to everything when they obviously are not.

[Zulmoka]

\
Just one look at BSN (What an horrible hive of social deviates and creepy people) makes it fairly clear that the sheep enviroment of it would lap any sort of shit it can as long as there is a label N7 on it.

The BSN, the perfect example of what the OP was talking about. Some of the things on there..."shudder"

[Vayshan]

All of them has DLC attached that has impact on the "full" game as you described the 60$ version. The funny thing is, even the PR dude says it's just the bare bone version, the minimum required to finish the game. Supporting this sort of business model is just plain ridiculous.

So even the action figures have some ingame content added to them that without the experience from the game would be nothing more than mundane? Well tbh that just makes me think twice before buying ME 3 in that case :S This sort of stuff will backfire onto the developer, interesting that they still push this formula.

[Wilian]

So even the action figures have some ingame content added to them that without the experience from the game would be nothing more than mundane? Well tbh that just makes me think twice before buying ME 3 in that case :S This sort of stuff will backfire onto the developer, interesting that they still push this formula.

If I remember right, the action figures came out with new companion missions OR new companion. There's just so many different sorts of DLC tied to the stuff I'm losing track what goes with what