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  1. #1

    Haste vs Mastery

    Hey guys

    So I feel like im in some kind of dillemma atm.
    Ive read thru the wonderful guides the Priest Forum offers but I havent really found the answer im looking for.

    My guild is currently at 2/8HC and im currently sitting on my Holy priest forging to Mastery and ive started to feel like I need to speed things up since tehre are fights were there is Fast Aoe Healing needed. Currently im only caped for the extra tick on renew etc.
    Ive started to think about re reforging pretty much everything to haste instead since I belive that will help give me what im looking for. But how much haste should I go for?

    I saw in the guide named [Priest] Holy Raiding Guide (4.3) here on the forums a list over "caps" to reach

    Example:
    To reach a cast time of 2.2 seconds:
    •Haste Percent: 5.07%
    •Haste Rating: 649
    •GCD Becomes: 1.32 sec.
    •Haste Percent needed without buffs: 13.64%

    To reach a cast time of 2.1 seconds:
    •Haste Percent: 10.08%
    •Haste Rating: 1290
    •GCD Becomes: 1.26 sec.
    •Haste Percent needed without buffs: 19.05%

    To reach a cast time of 2.0 seconds:
    •Haste Percent: 15.58%
    •Haste Rating: 1994
    •GCD Becomes: 1.2 sec.
    •Haste Percent needed without buffs: 25%


    To gain an extra tick on Renew, Hymn of Hope and Divine Hymn:
    •Haste Percent: 12.50%
    •Haste Rating: 516


    Should I go for the 2.0 seconds cast? and what happens if I get more haste than the highest cap listed?
    Also if ure raiding as Holy, how are u approaching this?

    Cheers
    Spoonman

  2. #2
    To reach a cast time of 2.0 seconds:
    •Haste Percent: 15.58%
    •Haste Percent needed without buffs: 25%


    this kinda baffles me... :S

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrubity View Post
    To reach a cast time of 2.0 seconds:
    •Haste Percent: 15.58%
    •Haste Percent needed without buffs: 25%


    this kinda baffles me... :S
    2.5/X = 2.0 ---> X = 1.25 (25% haste)
    1.03 (darkness) * 1.05 (quickening) * N = 1.25 ---> N = 1.1558 (15.58% before buffs)

    @OP:
    When you need to spike more to prevent deaths, stack haste until things become comfortable. Stack haste until the end of time if you have to. Trust me, it's fine - priest doesn't have a meaningful threshold until BL GCD caps PoH. That happens at 77% haste from rating, so you won't ever get there. Haste stacking is more often necessary in 10s, but (even on 25) during early progression you might need high haste for bosses like Warlord, where your 6-healer team needs to somehow come up with a 600K HPS burst after mitigation cooldowns.

    When you can comfortably out-heal all spikes but struggle more with mana, stack mastery until the end of time. It's really quite impossible to get below the 12.5% haste limit, since that's around 800 haste rating if you get all buffs other than DI. The reason this is preferred more often in 25 is because you have many more cooldowns to help you survive those big damage spikes. But, if none of the boss mechanics are cumbersome in 10 man you might find yourself sporting a mastery build (or cutting back on healers).

    The most important thing for you to do, though, is coordinate with your other healers on this issue. If you're stacking haste and they're stacking efficiency stats, well, you're carrying all the big bursts on your shoulders while they just provide a higher baseline. It's better for comp synergy if everyone is on the same page.

    Look left, look right, a quick search of the forum could have gotten you this exact answer, which I myself have typed out almost exactly as above more times that I can remember. Many others, too. It'll get you grouched at.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2012-02-02 at 01:22 AM.

  4. #4
    Blademaster SaltyClamsLive's Avatar
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    It depends if you are 10 or 25 man raiding. For 25 man, you want to stack mastery more then haste and for 10 man you want to have alittle more haste then you would for 25 man because of the fact there is only 2 or 3 healers and you need to get off important heals off.

    Numbers for being capped on haste while having as much mastery as possible.

    516 + raid buffs =12.5% haste and reaching 5th tick of renew if you have 3 points in Darkness.
    645 + raid buffs = 12.5% haste reaching the 5th tick with 2 points in Darkness.
    779 + raid buffs = 12.5% haste reaching the 5th tick with 1 point in Darkness.
    915 + raid buffs = 12.5% haste reaching 5th tick without any point in Darkness.

    But with the mass stacking and AoE fights, you actually want mroe mastery then haste. Haste for faster heals sure, but you will go oom faster, while the more mastery you have the bigger the ticks of your echo of light and PoH glyph will be making up the gap in haste and surpassing it. While also giving you the longevity of the fight. I personally don't care about the casting time, I look and make sure I'm over the 5th tick cap with as much mastery as I can get.

    Currently I roll with 2 points in darkness to reach the 5th tick cap, while also having 23.45 Mastery.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...c3%a0ms/simple

  5. #5
    Haste stacking is more often necessary in 10s, but (even on 25) during early progression you might need high haste for bosses like Warlord, where your 6-healer team needs to somehow come up with a 600K HPS burst after mitigation cooldowns.
    I would see the things a bit different - especially in early progression (which might be passed by right now) you always struggle with your mana. More haste means of course more burstheal but on the other side it means burning your mana (too) fast. Many healers risk to burn their mana when it would not be necessary. This could be your first step, as Zakaluka allready pointed out: sit down with your healer-mates and analyze the fights, how much hps is necessary in which situation, which healing class can provide the most burstheal with an efficiant playstyle, how about your state of gear and so on. Efficient healing does not only mean "save your mana" but also "always be aware of what the other healers are doing". After you and your healer-mates checked this, you can analyze your own playstyle. The question "mastery vs haste" or
    how much haste should I go for
    can't be answered lump-sum.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-02 at 12:05 PM ----------

    Ah, forgot something: as a holy priest you don't have to stack haste to provide big hps-spikes: FH-FH-(FH-)POH. This might be even the better choice for fights where you don't have high incoming dps all over the time but only some spikes from time to time.

  6. #6
    Would you not want to stack haste to get the most DH ticks? Renew is not going to help much with burst, PoH and other spells benifit from any level of haste, the more the merrier. As others have said though, Mastery can help a lot with burst as well, provided you have the time for it to work.

  7. #7
    [/COLOR]Ah, forgot something: as a holy priest you don't have to stack haste to provide big hps-spikes: FH-FH-(FH-)POH. This might be even the better choice for fights where you don't have high incoming dps all over the time but only some spikes from time to time.
    o.O sim this, serendipity doesn't QUITE give you back all the throughput you lost on your next PoH.

    FH-FH-PoH is lower HPCT than PoH, by a pretty tiny margin but the difference is there. FH is for spot heals. ugh. NOT a bigger HPS spike. Bind is the only serendipity trigger that actually raises HPS.

    And, it's a minor point, but the burst from serendipity is rear-loaded (same as BT).

    and also:
    especially in early progression (which might be passed by right now) you always struggle with your mana.
    while this is true, the immediate spiking requirement is more limiting than OOM. If you're geared for efficiency and wipe to spiking mechanics, your priorities are backwards. If you're geared for spike and you wipe to OOM, begin shifting haste into mst in chunks.

    If you can't survive the first 10 seconds of black or the last 10 seconds of timeloop, any theoretical 'maximum total healing done' notion is completely misguided. Gear around spiking requirements first, then total HPS.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2012-02-02 at 05:57 PM.

  8. #8
    I think you got me wrong or maybe I put it imprecisely (what may be more likely because English is not my first language :X). Let me try to clarify things:
    FH-FH-POH is 1. everything else but efficient 2. of course not appropriate to heal up big inc. dmg over a long time (ultraxion timeloop phase, Blackhorn P2). When I say 'dmg-spike' I'm thinking of fights like Madness hc tentacle crush, blistering heat debuff stacking on platform 3+4 or elementium blast . In these situations speed is more important than efficiency but in the remaining time raid HPS doesn't matter a lot. Just because much healing is needed (P2) it doesn't mean that this required healing has to come very fast or within a few seconds. Mastery will be the stronger stat by far.
    the immediate spiking requirement is more limiting than OOM
    100% agree, and i never said that it would be the other way round ,) all i was saying is this:
    Many healers risk to burn their mana when it would not be necessary
    and
    how much hps is necessary in which situation
    . Maybe this in-depth analysis of mastery vs. haste plays a major role in early progression where you have to consider each and every step. Spoonman said that he feels like he needed to speed things up and I just tried to open his eyes for some more perspectives instead of just stacking haste.

  9. #9
    bump because last post got stuck in spam filter and don't want people to miss it.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Athmoria View Post
    FH-FH-POH is 1. everything else but efficient 2. [...] When I say 'dmg-spike' I'm thinking of fights like Madness hc tentacle crush, blistering heat debuff stacking on platform 3+4 or elementium blast . In these situations speed is more important than efficiency
    This is the only thing you're saying that I disagree with. It's blatantly wrong. FH-FH-POH is not an hps spike, it's an HPS loss. If it were in fact an HPS spike, what you're proposing would be spot-on, but it's not. You use FH to prevent deaths, and serendipity ALMOST makes up for the HPS loss. If you don't believe me, ask simcraft.

    but now we're off-topic. We agree on stats. It's the kelesti vs aliena battle royale that hasn't had a rest since cata shipped. Aliena judges her success by being the top HPS end of fight. Kelesti judges her success by carrying all the big HPS spikes. With an aliena and a kelesti in the same group, the aliena APPEARS more successful because of recount. But, if you go looking for another aliena to replace your kelesti with, you'll mysteriously start having problems. That's because she was your real star healer, even if recount couldn't tell you that.

    But both their views are rather extreme, you really want to be able to accomplish both - as much effic as you can get while still leaving yourself wiggle room for triage. Your chosen haste point, well, it depends. I guess that discussion is over, though. I just feel compelled to argue this point about Flash.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2012-02-03 at 04:52 PM.

  11. #11
    I always felt that claiming certain numbers of haste that gets you to a specific cast time is misleading. There isn't anything "special" about being at 2.1s or 2.0s or at 1.9375 seconds. Those even decimals look nice and dandy but they are in no way real caps and you may as well be at 1.978 as 1.900 even if the latter can be described with less decimals. I think you sort of know this already since you put caps in quotation marks. You want the amount of haste that you feel comfortable with and unfortunately that is something you probably will have to find out yourself by trial and error. The only numbers that makes sense to refer to otherwise are things like where you get that extra tick of renew or where a cast time fits into some kind of rotation or sequence of spells you want to cast but you know that already.

  12. #12
    If you don't believe me, ask simcraft.
    I don't have to ask Simcraft because the thing is quite obvious, and i start to get distressed because it seems that i still was not able to clarify what I really wanted to say.
    [FH-FH-POH]--> HPS of the spells in brackets is lower than: [POH-POH-POH]. But it's the 40% hasted last POH I'm focused on: FH-FH-[POH]. So [FH-FH-inc.Spike-BAAAAM 40% hasted big mighty POH] is suitable for the situations I mentioned above pretty well. And yes, maybe we are a bit off-topic now, but I could not sleep if I would not have tried to correct this ,)
    A question to Spoonman: are you healing in a 10 oder a 25 man raid?

  13. #13
    Also, you have to remember to take in account what you are healing, and who you are healing it with. I was pretty strict in running Disc with a Shaman healer. But when my group went with a Paladin as our main heal, I switched over to Holy Tank healing. This allowed me to CoH and PoH when extra raid healing was needed, with out pulling off the tank very much. But this is in 10 man only.

    I have tried everything from Crit to Pure Haste to Pure Mastery. I mad the determination that going with a Spirit/Haste build was "better" for me.

    As Zaka said, you can go for one extreme or the other, but each has their use in 25 mans.
    I don't heal STUPID, Stupid SHOULD HURT!
    Syntyche - Disc Priest

  14. #14
    I switched over to Holy Tank healing
    So you healed the tank as a holy priest und the pala healed grp? Srsly? How did this work? :>

  15. #15
    Serendipity isn't useful as an aoe spiking mechanic, at best it makes FH not horrible to use during AoE.



    There's no reason to use option C unless someone's about to die.

    My crusade is over, not gonna argue this one anymore in this thread.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Athmoria View Post
    A question to Spoonman: are you healing in a 10 oder a 25 man raid?
    Im healing in 10man

  17. #17
    Just felt I should point out that HW:Sanc scales with mastery but not haste.
    Redsparowe#2548 <Crayola Inc>, Lightbringer EU

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    Serendipity isn't useful as an aoe spiking mechanic, at best it makes FH not horrible to use during AoE.



    There's no reason to use option C unless someone's about to die.

    My crusade is over, not gonna argue this one anymore in this thread.
    Zaka u get him wrong..

    he doesnt mean FH FH PoH during AoE but just after a spike of damage like the Crush or bolt impact on madness.
    FH|BH tank FH|BH DPS if needed than BAM Impact of the Bolt 40% hasted PoH > CoH > PoH spam is what hes prolly be doing.
    As thats what i understand of him doing and explaining to u.

    His English is fine i think u 2 were talking about different things.


    Also Athmoria, im disc tank healing and the HPally raid healed the group, yes Radiance is that good.
    Occasional PoH and his Beacon on the tank we 2 heal everything fine with no issues, most fights are 1 tankable anyways cept for Ultraxion (is 1 tankable but more room for misstakes) and Gunship on normal ofc. HM is different

    Now im 2 healing with a Resto Druid and have a Shammy as 3rd healer as the Pally had to stop due to time issues.
    Last edited by DerrHans; 2012-02-07 at 12:31 PM.

    Sig made by Resentful

  19. #19
    Yep, my bad. Fishing up haste for a future PoH is just fine.

    I didn't catch this in his explanation because it literally never occurred to me. I just cast the PoH earlier for similar results. Was also being a bit defensive, secondary stat threads are tiring. Sorry.
    Last edited by zakaluka; 2012-02-07 at 03:24 PM.

  20. #20

    Lightwell 4th tick

    I'm not gonna dive into the whole haste vs mastery debate per se, but I would like to point out one thing that seems to have been overlooked.
    At 2134 haste rating Lightwell gains it's 4th tick, which is a rather huge thing, at least in 10 mans.

    So if you are stacking haste and are considering mixing it up with some mastery, but can't find a meaningful place to stop the haste stacking, then getting the 4th Lightwell tick and then going for mastery might be the way to go.

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