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  1. #1

    Shadow and Dark intent with 4set t13

    I was just wondering once we get 4 set and start using mind spikes with AA will be still be the better option in the raid for warlocks dark intent?? Would like some detailed information on this if anyone can help plz.

  2. #2
    its a dps loss to spike even with AA

  3. #3
    Mechagnome Kassina's Avatar
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    Not sure about Mind spike x3 MB with DI but without it you should at least and I assume you should even if you have it not sure tho.
    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    Have a look at Kilee's guide, it's updated for 4.3. You can trust pretty much anything Kilee puts in her guide, she thinks it out pretty thoroughly and takes plenty of community feedback before ever putting stuff up there.

    Or, see the thread here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...vs-Mind-Spike). Be sure you read the whole thing, all the way down to kilee's most recent sims. OP missed a few things and came to a hasty conclusion.

    Short answer: using 4p with spikespam during fiend is a dps gain, even after the loss you take ramping up again afterwards. It's even better on fights where you DON'T lose ramp-up (ex: spine)
    Read that and you might find your answer: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...f-the-rotation
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...vs-Mind-Spike)

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Joyful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoshPit13 View Post
    its a dps loss to spike even with AA
    Its not a dps loss to spike with AA and fiend assuming you dont have to wait to long for either of the cooldowns to sync up.

  5. #5
    This has been covered many many times in other threads. The most information regarding the DPS output, theorycrafting and the affect on DI (for both the spriest and the lock) can be found at this thread at H2P. And yes, it is a DPS increase to use a MS/MB rotation with CDs with the four set. The lock will see a very small DPS decrease, but the priest sees a larger increase in DPS that makes up for the loss the lock sees. It is still a net gain in DPS to give the spriest DI even if they are using MS/MB spam during CDs.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sakamae View Post
    It is still a net gain in DPS to give the spriest DI even if they are using MS/MB spam during CDs.
    Net gain compared to not giving DI to anybody, perhaps. But as the guide on H2P mentions, if there is a Fire Mage or Boomkin doing equivalent DPS already, it's a gray area. I don't see the point in giving it to the Spriest in that case when it increases the Spriest and Boomkin's dps by about the same, but a higher DI uptime for the lock, resulting in higher raid dps.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
    Net gain compared to not giving DI to anybody, perhaps. But as the guide on H2P mentions, if there is a Fire Mage or Boomkin doing equivalent DPS already, it's a gray area. I don't see the point in giving it to the Spriest in that case when it increases the Spriest and Boomkin's dps by about the same, but a higher DI uptime for the lock, resulting in higher raid dps.
    Equivalent dps is misleading, if they're performing to the same capacity compared to their potential dps then its even playing field since the calculations done do not assume everyone does the same dps. Long story short if you are mind spiking with 4t13, you become a poorer target to DI than fire mages, boomkins, and sub rogues.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by gakpad View Post
    Long story short if you are mind spiking with 4t13, you become a poorer target to DI than fire mages, boomkins, and sub rogues.
    That's just not empirically true. Our up times even with using this method are still extremely competitive, especially if you are using the version where you cast MF during it. Plus... the amount of time spent doing this in fights is extremely small in the scope of an entire fight. Now if the mage and boomkin are really good at playing their class really well and the spriest is less, well honestly the DI probably should have gone to them anyways.

    Just declaring that by using MS/MB a spriest is automatically a worst target is misleading and misinformed.

  9. #9
    Arlee is 100% correct but I think it's probably safe to use the rule that if good DI targets in your raid do similar damage then the spriest is probably no longer the best target. However if you want to know for sure you should research the effect DI has on the various class/specs and make a decision based on more information than your spriest using MS occasionally.

    Arlee is completely correct that you can't simply trust that just because the spriest is using MS it automatically makes him the worst target. If he/she is doing 5K more than the next viable DI target you should continue to give it to them.

    And if you do switch you should let people know well ahead of time because it drastically changes gearing customisation. All of a sudden your spriest may have to find ~400 haste rating to get to the VT+2 level after losing DI.

  10. #10
    spriests dont forget you start AA at start of fight usually or during burn phases, if you have a demo lock he is wanting to meta at the same you want to do your burn so he is missing out on serious dps so you can have 3% haste, surely a boomking/mage could get more use out of it, without screwing your warlock over.

    edit: yes i made a mistake it is 3% not 2% but i still think the class of lock and the timing of burning is very important when choosing who to DI
    Last edited by kakle; 2012-02-10 at 03:58 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by kakle View Post
    spriests dont forget you start AA at start of fight usually or during burn phases, if you have a demo lock he is wanting to meta at the same you want to do your burn so he is missing out on serious dps so you can have 2% haste, surely a boomking/mage could get more use out of it, without screwing your warlock over.
    Because 15 seconds out of a 5 min fight will totally destroy a lock's dps for the whole entire fight. Also btw it's a 3% haste buff... please can we stop spreading wrong and misleading information guys?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Because 15 seconds out of a 5 min fight will totally destroy a lock's dps for the whole entire fight. Also btw it's a 3% haste buff... please can we stop spreading wrong and misleading information guys?
    Coming from a Demo lock's perspective, not having 9% increased dot damage at the beginning when we do our largest DPS cycle does hurt. That first Bane of Doom will be your strongest non-Doomguard spell you cast the whole fight, and reducing it's damage by 9% sucks ass. Not to mention all your other dots (Immolate/Corruption/Shadowflame/Immolation Aura).
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  13. #13
    Right at the beginning of a fight it's exactly how likely we would have proc'd 3 stacks on the demo lock anyways?

    Not to mention that it's probably likely that the demo lock and the spriest could actually sit down and have a talk about what the best timing for their abilities are.
    Last edited by Arlee; 2012-02-10 at 04:24 AM.

  14. #14
    it's not that it rapes the warlocks dps, its just that there are better targets for DI if you insist on using mind spike. not saying you're the WORST target, just that you aren't the BEST. This is backed by simcraft, so no, it is not empirically false. Find me some hard math that shows me otherwise that contradicts the hard math already in place that shows you are wrong. I like how personal spriests are taking this whole thing.

    edit: we're talking a small amount of dps loss, in the realm of only a few hundred, when comparing DI raid dps gain on a priest that isn't using mind spike to a priest that is. the DI ranks were already relatively close, it just pushes you down a few spots.
    Last edited by gakpad; 2012-02-10 at 05:54 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by gakpad View Post
    it's not that it rapes the warlocks dps, its just that there are better targets for DI if you insist on using mind spike. not saying you're the WORST target, just that you aren't the BEST. This is backed by simcraft, so no, it is not empirically false. Find me some hard math that shows me otherwise that contradicts the hard math already in place that shows you are wrong. I like how personal spriests are taking this whole thing.

    edit: we're talking a small amount of dps loss, in the realm of only a few hundred, when comparing DI raid dps gain on a priest that isn't using mind spike to a priest that is. the DI ranks were already relatively close, it just pushes you down a few spots.
    The only person taking it personal is you. You aren't interested in having a discussion, you are interested trolling Shadow Priests. You make a claim without showing evidence (yet you insist it exists), then you state that nobody can make any counter points unless they show you hard math. Nice double standard.

  16. #16
    I am not taking any of this personal. I just think some over arching conclusions are being drawn that shouldn't be and I hate to see the community hurt at all by people trying to make an easy rule to follow in all situations when it really isn't a simple thing at all. Each raid group needs to be able to figure out these things on their own.

    If you have a boomkin that plays perfectly and a spriest that plays perfectly it's really close on which one would be better. If Di would make the boomkin cross an important haste plateau and the spriest doesn't then yea boomkin should probably get it. If they both need it to cross the plateau then it gets a bit muddled again.

    Another thing to consider is maybe to have the talk on a fight by fight basis. Some fights we can easily get in the rotation more times than others... not to mention when heroism is being used in the fights can affect things as well. For example a lot of raids use heroism at the beginning of Ultraxion which means that most spriests probably won't be using this in the beginning of that fight anyways. Spine is another matter entirely.

    Lastly... there are very very very few people of any class who play their class perfectly all the time or even most of the time. So you also have to take in account the individuals as well.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by clavarnway View Post
    Net gain compared to not giving DI to anybody, perhaps.
    You need a log analysis. Admit that you're ultimately coming to your point of view off a gut reaction, since as you say "it's a grey area". Link me logs for a fight, I'll do an analysis with screenshots and all, and tell you exactly how much DPS warlock and fire mage stand to lose / spriest stands to gain. It's not clear-cut, you have to evaluate your logs carefully. I CAN tell you this, the last time I did it the spriest was in the lead over the fire mage even after the lock took his dps loss. And some fights let you cheese out the feedback buff (spine) making it a wider margin in your favor. Not necessarily going to be the same case for your group, but if you want to know how to tell for sure I'll illustrate for you.

  18. #18
    First of all, I have no personal interest in this discussion. I could care less about who I give DI to as long as I'm maximizing my raid's gain from it by giving it to whoever I end up deciding on. I stand nothing to lose. That being said, taken from Kilee's own post on H2P:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilee
    Bal Druid uptime: 98% raid dps: 3499
    SPriest uptime: 99% raid dps: 3087
    Sub Rogue uptime: 96% raid dps: 2911
    SPriest T13 uptime: 88% raid dps: 2869
    Feral Druid uptime: 97% raid dps: 2818
    SV Hunter uptime: 99% raid dps: 2773
    Fire Mage uptimeL 94% raid dps: 2707
    Ignoring any disputes about moonkin haste thresholds DI puts them past/personal opinions/etc (although I do believe fire mages are misrepresented, but that's another discussion) Kilee him/herself has already provided math done by him/herself showing that changing your rotation with 4t13 does in fact put you down a few spots on the list. Not to mention that if you don't have the legendary your rankings compared to the other non-caster classes will probably actually result in them being ahead of you if you change your rotation. A 12% loss in feedback uptime on the warlock is not the minimal dps loss you make it out to be, nor is the fact that the warlock's feedback procs on you during your SF/AA MS/MB rotation go wasted. Yes, there are situations where this loss can be avoided, i.e. multidotting on spine, madness, etc, but from a purely single target perspective I don't see how there is still any discussion on this.

    Nobody is saying that switching to a MS/MB rotation during 4t13 is a raid dps loss on its own if you have DI - let me make that clear. I understand the dps you gain from using the alternate rotation outweighs the dps loss the warlock experiences due to loss of feedback. What I and others are saying, is that it simply lowers the potential raid dps that can be obtained through DI by several hundred when comparing you to other classes. If your warlock stops giving you DI, have a talk with him. There's a good chance you can come to some mutual agreement where you can both be happy.

    Another disclaimer for the tl;dr folks: I am NOT saying that it is a significant raid dps loss to use the alternate rotation. As you can see, Kilee's own math showed it was only a ~200 dps loss in the value of DI for the raid. Again, please read: I am NOT saying it is a significant loss in value of DI, or any ridiculous blanket statements to the effect that "priests using the alternate rotation are the worst targets" or anything like that. Just that it is a minor loss in the value of DI that puts other classes slightly above you. Do not quote me and imply that I am taking some extreme stance on the topic when I am trying to stress how small of an issue it really is, while maintaining that it is still an issue, though. As always, taking the individual's performance into account is just as important as the general rankings based on perfect play and conditions.
    Last edited by gakpad; 2012-02-10 at 06:37 PM.

  19. #19
    Very well thought out, and I can't find anything wrong with the numbers. It still misses the point that who you choose is a very individual thing. Kilee's sim, first of all, comes up with 41K personal dps for both the warlock and the balance druid. Show me a balance druid that can keep pace like that on ANY fight, be it a single target fight or a massively multi-target fight, and I'll show you a highly valued player who should receive DI 100% of the time regardless.

    Now, how much lower can the boomkin's DPS be than the SPriest's for DI to still belong with the boomkin? 2k? 3k?

    To know the right answer for your group, you quite simply need a log analysis. Players are NOT equal. All the DI ranking should tell you is that with perfect play the difference is small (700 dps window), and that the strength of DI is dependent mostly on the player.

  20. #20
    To be fair, the comparisons do take into account the dps of each class. I.E. when comparing fire mage to a spriest for DI, it doesn't assume the spriest is going to be doing the same dps the fire mage does. It's all taken into account. The relative rankings among players of the different classes will stay the same so long as gear and skill remain a constant - when one of the two changes, the rankings will change with it. Which is where personal consideration comes into play when deciding who to DI. Since the rankings are pretty close, I'd say your best bet is to simulate the characters you want to compare, and then look at their dps on Ultraxion/what have you, and see who comes closest to their simulated dps (with an emphasis on their dot uptimes!) and adjust the rankings for your personal scenario accordingly.

    ---------- Post added 2012-02-10 at 08:39 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by zakaluka View Post
    Very well thought out, and I can't find anything wrong with the numbers. It still misses the point that who you choose is a very individual thing. Kilee's sim, first of all, comes up with 41K personal dps for both the warlock and the balance druid.
    I'm seeing the druid doing ~48k personal dps with DI and the warlock doing ~51k personal dps, so not sure where 41k is coming from >_>
    Last edited by gakpad; 2012-02-10 at 08:43 PM.

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