Don't understand EJ BiS list

[Dundebuns]

http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t113391-...on_4_2_onward/

I don't understand a few gear choices here, namely the choices for head and glove slot. This list recommends the tier head http://www.wowhead.com/item=78686 and Morchok gloves http://www.wowhead.com/item=78362. However, I would have thought the badge head http://www.wowhead.com/item=77150 and tier gloves http://www.wowhead.com/item=78667 would have been better choices, due to the first selection featuring crit and haste items, while the late features hit, exp and mastery?

One thing I thought was to do with ilvl, but this tier I have virtually no chance of getting any heroic gear due to the guild I am in dissipating.

[athkore]

probably cause of more sockets

[myhv]

One thing I thought was to do with ilvl, but this tier I have virtually no chance of getting any heroic gear due to the guild I am in dissipating.

Than you should not be even looking at the BiS lists. And yeah, that items are taken for the sake of stats trade off for better gems and higher ilvl, i.e. higher primary stat.

[rewn]

probably cause of more sockets

Probably because other than the tier head, there are no heroic helmets available, and the sheer agililty gain on this surpasses the gain of the mastery on the valor helmet. Then from there of course, the only non heroic off pieces are also those gloves, which again, I imagine boils down to the sheer agility gain.

[Endus]

One thing I thought was to do with ilvl, but this tier I have virtually no chance of getting any heroic gear due to the guild I am in dissipating.

Then you should be running sims and determining stat weights and going from there, not looking at pre-selected BiS lists of gear you won't be able to attain.

Stats change how they scale over time, and ilvl sometimes makes a huge difference.

[Dundebuns]

The BiS lists tend to have non heroic counter parts, so regardless of my ilvl ceiling it is still applicable to me, mainly in terms of selecting which piece of gear to get determined by its stats.

And sims may tell me which gear set gives me more DPS, but it wont tell me why. I am wondering why haste and crit seem to be better than mastery at this ilvl.

[rewn]

The BiS lists tend to have non heroic counter parts, so regardless of my ilvl ceiling it is still applicable to me, mainly in terms of selecting which piece of gear to get determined by its stats.

And sims may tell me which gear set gives me more DPS, but it wont tell me why. I am wondering why haste and crit seem to be better than mastery at this ilvl.

A normal mode BiS list is bound to be different from an absolutely BiS list purely because you'll need different gemming/reforging and possibly completely different pieces of gear to mix and match around the caps (hit and exp etc). You can't just look at that heroic mode BiS and think "hmm this will be my BiS even in normal mode".

As for crit and haste being better than mastery at this ilvl, they aren't. Go through that BiS list fully and you'll see that every opportunity the creator got, he reforged a stat to mastery. He even writes a little summary before the list which I think you might have overlooked

There is a lot of potential for different setups to have very similar output this tier, as several of the highest agility items also have very weak secondary stat combinations, namely Sporebeard Gauntlets, Belt of the Beloved Companion, Treads of Dormant Dreams and Signet of Grasping Mouths. Spiritwalker's Grips, or VP gear in the other 3 cases may be very competitive. It's also entirely possible that some setups will go as high as 60 points over the spell hit cap. Hit beyond the cap is often better than Haste Rating.

As for his particular choices, they were probably mathmatically superior. Like his glove choice. Fully gemmed, the sporebeard gloves have a 50 agility advantage over the heroic tier gloves straight off. That, plus the reforge from haste > hit is likely superior to the tier gloves + a reforge on those (as he may not need the expertise on the gloves too which would make that stat useless).

The point you seem to be missing is that BiS setups are very reliant on having every item in it. If you dont have all the items, you may be short of a cap or extremely over a cap which is wasted stats. As I said before, in the BiS list you are referring to, it's likely the creator used his own stat weights and used them to mathmatically determine that the choices he made were better than the ones your suggesting.

[Absorb]

the biggest difference in normal mode BiS list and heroic BiS list is that on heroic you have fewer high ilvl choices, due to the fact you can buy 397s from the valor vendor. in many cases a higher ilvl item with red sockets will be better even if the secondary stats are worst vs. best.

[Deepsidedj]

JUST FOLLOW IT AND DON'T QUESTION. Like most of EJ readers do.

[Endus]

The BiS lists tend to have non heroic counter parts, so regardless of my ilvl ceiling it is still applicable to me, mainly in terms of selecting which piece of gear to get determined by its stats.

That's precisely my point.

The EJ BiS list is a heroic-level list, not a normal one.

And you can't just downgrade all the bits and have them retain the same ranking. If you have three trinkets, A, B, and C, that are #1, 2, and 3 respectively at (H) gear levels, the (N) versions might be #1, 3, 2, or #2, 1, 3, or some other mix. You need to be working things out at your gear level, based on the upgrades you're ACTUALLY getting. The BiS list is designed around the stat weights at that gear level, and isn't necessarily at all relevant.

And sims may tell me which gear set gives me more DPS, but it wont tell me why. I am wondering why haste and crit seem to be better than mastery at this ilvl.

If you know how to run the sims properly, it'll tell you precisely why, with a ton of statistical data to support that conclusion. Nothing you've pointed out shows that Haste and Crit are point-for-point better than Mastery at the (H) ilvl, and they're not. It's being Reforged to Mastery, and the reason you take the higher ilvl is because neither stat is so terrible that it makes the extra Agility and extra secondary stats not worth the tradeoff.

Running the comparison between the two helmets, here's the base stats (sockets ignored since they're identical, including socket bonus);
SWH: 489 Agility, 391 Hit Rating, 252 Haste
ZDC: 426 Agility, 300 Hit Rating, 288 Mastery

And the baseline normalized stat weights I just generated with Simulationcraft's default BiS profile (not absolutely identical, but close enough);
Agility: 1.00
Hit Rating: 0.687
Mastery: 0.622
Haste: 0.319

SWH = 489(1) + 391(0.687) + 252(0.319) = 838.005
ZDC = 426(1) + 300(0.687) + 288(0.622) = 811.236

SWH is the clear winner, if you bother to run the math with appropriate stat weights. Even before I consider Reforging, which will boost SWH more than the ZDC, since the 40% of Haste you Reforge will see a bigger improvement than you could get out of Reforging either Hit or Mastery. It's not really much contest; SWH is clearly the better item at those stat weights.

[Dundebuns]

Nothing you've pointed out shows that Haste and Crit are point-for-point better than Mastery at the (H) ilvl

Whoa calm down there Endus, I haven't made any assertions about what stat is better, I've just been asking for clarification and advice. Nice to see I meet such aggression with a simple question

Thanks for the answer Rewn.

[greez]

Whoa calm down there Endus, I haven't made any assertions about what stat is better, I've just been asking for clarification and advice. Nice to see I meet such aggression with a simple question

Thanks for the answer Rewn.

Oh boy is someone paranoid.

[Paf]

Whoa calm down there Endus, I haven't made any assertions about what stat is better, I've just been asking for clarification and advice. Nice to see I meet such aggression with a simple question

Thanks for the answer Rewn.

He wasn't aggressive at all and you took that quote entirely out of context. The actual quote has that line followed by a "... and here is why".

[Endus]

Whoa calm down there Endus, I haven't made any assertions about what stat is better, I've just been asking for clarification and advice. Nice to see I meet such aggression with a simple question

Thanks for the answer Rewn.

I am wondering why haste and crit seem to be better than mastery at this ilvl.

That certainly looks like an assertion to me.

You're also mistaking criticism with aggression. They're not even remotely similar.

[Tides]

Well anyways, to Dundebuns.

If you check out the Enhance sticky at the top of these very forums i did put in a strictly normal mode bis list for your usage I hope you will find it useful.

[Chronnos]

The head EJ sugests is purely because of the ilvl difference.

The gloves were chosen because in BiS gear you'll be way over the expertise cap even with reforging away from it on all items. The Sporebat Gauntlets are the only 410 ilvl agility gloves without expertise on them.

[Weerra]

The BiS lists tend to have non heroic counter parts, so regardless of my ilvl ceiling it is still applicable to me, mainly in terms of selecting which piece of gear to get determined by its stats.

Only TENDS.
Valor gear doesn't have heroic equivalent. It is left behind by sheer ilvl, even if on 397 level it may be superior. And as you pointed out, it probably IS.

[Enaina]

Does elemental have a BiS list this tier?