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  1. #1

    DS Normal to Heroic Difficulty Increase?

    My raiding group has been doing DS10 for about 4-5 weeks now. We raid Fri/Sat 3 hrs a night (may add another 2 hrs on Sun after we finish farming FL for staff). We went in with half pug groups in Dec but holidays were really messing with people's schedule, especially since we raid Fri/Sat. So we got our first real run in the first full weekend of Jan.
    Currently we are 6/8. Spine should have been down 2 weeks ago but we had a couple people quit and the replacements for them.....well they didn't work out so well. So I have that corrected and we will be going back this weekend and should down spine and start working on Madness.

    So my question is, how big of a jump is it from downing Madness, to starting to do Heroic? I have heard Morchok isn't bad but what about after that? I have done a few heroics here and there but usually after the content is no longer current so I am trying to find out ahead of time what to expect and how hard it will be on my group.

    Also, how big of a factor is group makup going to be? My group's makup is usually as follows. Last spot I am recruiting for and will probably get a second dps with a heal OS to hopefully make sure I don't have to pug if we are down 1 person.
    Prot War
    Feral (Tank) Druid
    H Pally (me)
    Resto Shaman
    Disc/Holy Priest
    Surv Hunter
    Afflic/Destro Lock
    Arcane Mage
    Fury War
    ?? - Last spot is up in the air atm.

    I know we could use a Demo lock / Ele Shaman and that is one thing I am looking for. A DK would also be helpful. Other than that though, any major issues with this setup?

    I am basically just trying to get an idea what we are in for. Right now most of the group is on for raids and that is about it. I am a bit worried that if we get to bosses that are taking 4-5 weeks to down, the group will fall apart as people will stop logging in.

  2. #2
    Morchok really isn't to bad, the rest i personally feel have difficulties that are dependent on how solid your raid group is. Also, your right having that lock go demo will help yours healers and mage with the sp buff. You should probably consider pushing that warrior to go arms. Fury is meh right now and arms is pretty crazy. I would also be careful going into heroics when you don't have ds reg on farm
    Last edited by Mcshiz; 2012-02-13 at 04:13 PM.

  3. #3
    If you are struggling to do the normal modes, you will get destroyed by the heroic encounters after Morchok.

  4. #4
    Not much, for Morchok.

    The sticking point is getting the 4 healers (and since you've not killed DW yet, using just 2 unlikely), and 2 soakers.

    As a H Pally, you're soaker no 1. The only other you could use is the warrior.

    The rest look quite a jump over their normal counterparts.

  5. #5
    Everything is a huge stepup from normal on heroic, except for Morchok and possibly Ultraxion. Madness can be challenging, but it pales in comparison to most heroic fights. DPS and healing requirements go up quite a bit.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    The sticking point is getting the 4 healers (and since you've not killed DW yet, using just 2 unlikely), and 2 soakers.
    The left side takes less damage than the right so just have the paladin soak on that side and never move to the crystals, no need for two healers on each side.

  7. #7
    Either you are going to need all your dps to pull at LEAST 35k+, or you are going to have to drop a healer and 2 heal. Fights like Ultraxion ARE kinda class specific I.E You need soakers. With your current setup, I don't even think it would be possible. I would highly advise picking up a rogue if at all possible, as the legendary daggers are not hard to get, and you could probably get a decent rogue fairly easy due to the fact tha they want their legendary. Having it will help your dps quite a bit.
    Another fight that comes to mind is yorsahj. While it is possible, the only way my guild has been able to successfully down it was with a DK solo tanking. AMS is incredibly powerful, and along with the self heals they do amazingly well on it.
    i guess in answer to your question, can it be done with your comp? Possibly, but it won't be easy. Some classes are just more suited for certain fights than others. Simple as that.
    Oh one more thing. i wouldn't even attempt anything past morchok until you have at LEAST 3 weeks of spine/madness kills under your belt. Things like Maw of the Dragonlord are damn near required in HM.

    Edit: Figured out a way to soak with what you have. Both tanks would soak. Hunter and shadow warded warlock soul burned healthstone destro lock, guardian spirit priest and mage (iceblock)/fury warrior (shield wall macro) Really messy. Hell if you had six rogues, two tanks, and two heals, the fight would be TOO EASY lol. I'd advise strongly for a rogue or a dps dk with a blood os.
    Last edited by Asher13; 2012-02-13 at 04:26 PM.

  8. #8
    Heroic to normal is like professional level to amateur.

    Requires 100% focus/awareness as opposed to maybe 25% for normal modes.

    Just to give you an idea, we slaughtered 8/8 normal modes in the very first week of DS yet we are still struggling on heroic Warlord right now.

    I would wait until Aspects stack to AT LEAST 15% before trying anything other than Morchok.

  9. #9
    My question is were you in normal FL gear or heroic FL gear? If the latter, then you outgeared the encounters anyways and clearing 8/8 in the first week should be expected

  10. #10
    On 10man, Morchok and Ultraxion are cakewalks on heroic, so you shouldn't have much struggle with them.

    But yes, to answer your question, there is a HUGE jump in difficulty between regs/easy heroics, and the hard heroics. It's going to be a big slap in the face for your group, especially if you've been wiping on Spine for two weeks. Fight like Yor'sahj are going to demand both perfect execution and meeting a somewhat tight enrage.

    Sorry if that's harsh, but you wanted an honest answer.

    (We steamrolled 8/8 reg 25man in the first week, and then took up till now to clear 4/8H. It's that big of a jump.)

    Edit: Group comp doesn't really matter, DS is "bring the Hpally and burst DPS, not the player" so you should be good with your healer comp and mage/warrior DPS.
    Last edited by Stevoman; 2012-02-13 at 04:46 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Asher13 View Post
    My question is were you in normal FL gear or heroic FL gear? If the latter, then you outgeared the encounters anyways and clearing 8/8 in the first week should be expected
    Considering the heroic modes in FL (after the nerfs) were a lot easier than the ones in DS, it is probably a good benchmark to see whether or not you are suited for hcs at all if you had a hard time in FL.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Yourgrounded View Post
    The left side takes less damage than the right so just have the paladin soak on that side and never move to the crystals, no need for two healers on each side.
    Morchok or Korchok does less damage? I'm gonna be pissed if this whole time we were 2 healing the wrong side lol.

    At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

  13. #13
    Morchok deals more damage, or not more, rather the abilities are more frequent kinda.

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by casserole View Post
    Just to give you an idea, we slaughtered 8/8 normal modes in the very first week of DS yet we are still struggling on heroic Warlord right now.
    Likewise. My guild cleared DS first week and are progressing at 3/8 right now (although we did have a three week raid break over christmas).

    Dragon Soul heroics are pretty damn hard for the common player.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    I soak on Morchok's side as a resto shaman, Can even survive a doublestomp, when he is under 20%

  16. #16
    Thanks for the input. One of the dps we lost recently due to RL issues was a rogue, but I will work on trying to make that one of the dps. Also may talk to the lock a bit more about going Demo.

    Also a bit more history on the group...The group is fairly new. 6-7 of us did a bit of FL together but only for a few weeks before 4.3. Most have raided for years but mostly in normals. We had no heroic gear going into DS and have yet to actually finish a Legendary Staff (3-4 more weeks....).

    As far as Spine, we should have downed it 2 weeks ago. We had 7 people carrying 2 people that were having major issues and 1 pug (and still the wipes were on 3rd tenticle at 20% ish). This week we didn't even try a 2nd raid night as we were looking at the same thing. Those issues are being resolved this week and we should be back on track. The only real issues we have had are with Ultraxion (missing dps requirement slightly), and Warmaster but both were pretty easily solved once we started 2 healing those fights.

  17. #17
    i can tell you from experience that one of the biggest keys to success when it comes to heroic (or any really)progression is the consistency of the players that are there. if you are constantly changing people every week or every night, you have to spend too much time on explaining the fight, letting the new people work out their own personal problems with the fight, and you never move forward. The First thing you should do before even attempting any serious progression is get a solid group that can be relied on to be there every week. i can't stress this enough.
    If you are having troubles with dps on normals, you are going to be beating the hell out of yourself on heroics. I'm not kidding when i say the bare minimum from anyone in your read (assuming you have 7 dps) is going to be about 30k. That's on a one tank fight with two healers.
    On a side note, funnily enough, my guild has a helluva lot harder time on H ultraxion than we did with yor'sahj.

  18. #18
    I wouldn't say the DS hard modes are "harder than firelands", they're only "harder than firelands postnerf". Frankly T11 heroics are harder than firelands postnerf since the nerf gutted that instance.

    If spine normal was giving you difficulty on 10-man than you will be unable to get past anything beyond Morchok heroic for the time being. You will need a lot more coordination, DPS, healing and skill to get past the others for now. I suspect the next "buff" will be a jump straight from 5% to 20% at which point the instance will be a joke.

  19. #19
    As has been stated: Morchok is a joke, go in with 4 healers and yawn your way through it. After that.. if you don't do normal smoothly you'll struggle as hell. Come back here for tips on setups and strategys as you progress and ppl might be able to help.

  20. #20
    Hey,

    Your raid sounds so similar to mine that at first I actually thought you were talking about mine lol. Anyways the jump from Normal to Heroic is pretty steep for stuff past Morchok.

    Our raid group, Which is alot like yours has 4/8 heroic down, and probably will get hagara/boat down this week.

    Our comp is,

    Blood DK
    Blood DK
    Boomkin
    Spriest (goes disc for Morchok)
    Resto Shaman
    Resto Shaman
    Holy Pally
    Hunter
    Rogue
    Mage
    Arms War *(switches out for one of the tanks)*

    Morchok is pretty easy if you can find the 4 healers, and they don't have to be great at healing either 1 person can heal it but its so much easier with 2. After Morchok Zanooz and Yor'Shaz(sp?) are quite tough, I'd suggest doing Yor'shaz with your best 2 healers and and grab another dps.

    You can also do Heroic Ultraxion with just 1 healer, we do it with just our Holy Pally to get that extra dps and down it very fast. Alternatively you can use a Holy Pally + Disc priest, with the disc just trying to do as much dps as possible with atonement.

    Again, its pretty steep a scale, but there is no harm in trying them just gets your raid ready for when you have the dps/comp to do them.
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