PVP Balance

[keese]

Engineers have a saying that holds true in certain scenarios that goes like this, "pick two, powerful, durable, cheap." This saying applies to things like cars, airplanes, motorcycles, etc. A military plane is going to be very powerful, very durable, not cheap. A honda civic is very durable (relative to most other cars they last a long time), relatively cheap, but usually not very powerful. Sometimes a civic might have a little more power (like the Si) but it won't be as cheap. Same thing applies to almost all consumer electronics and appliances. I could make a list but really I think the point is made, most products can be really good at two things, but not three.

(Disclaimer-obviously this isn't 100% true but it's true and general enough for my point)

Now let's talk about WoW PVP. They started off PVP like a rock paper scissors match, rogues might beat druids who beat hunters that beat rogue, or something like that. After they released arena they decided that wasn't going to work so they decided to try and balance around 3v3s. Right around when Cata came out they decided that was too hard so they now balance around RBGs... I think. I don't really know what they balance around tbh anymore. I don't think they really know either.

My proposition is this. "Pick two, control, damage, survivability." I think if Blizzard designed with this in mind it would help the balance of the game tremendously. Frost mages and rogues are perfect examples of classes that have all three. They obviously have the best control, with multiple stuns, slows, blind, sheep, smoke cloud, not to mention most of their CC's don't share DR with each other. They both have good damage, rogues can line up CD's, procs, and burst the shit out of you. Frost mages just have overall good damage that they can dish out while moving as well as incredible DPS CDs. Survivability wise, they might seem bad because they are cloth and leather respectively, but in practice they have some of the best survivability. Ice block is one of the best spells in the game for PVP. Sure, you can't do anything, but getting 10 free seconds for your many CDs to come back is so crucial. They have blink. They can sheep then evocate. Rogues can recuperate and stealth almost indefinitely.

The point of this isn't to say, oh frost mages and rogues are OP, nerf them. No, what I'm trying to say is that there are certain classes, like Boomkins, that can deal really good damage, but they're survivability and control are terrible. A perfect example of this theory in action is affliction warlocks. In the beginning of Cata, they were near unkillable by melee because of their many fears, slow, and they could heal themselves very very well which all worked very well with teleport. Their healing was nerfed which brought their survivability down a bit. Now they deal respectable damage in group settings, they still have very good control, but they're a little squishier which makes them, IMO perfectly balanced.

I think Blizzard's problem when they look at balance is they always go straight to the damage numbers. This pisses everyone off. It makes PVE/PVP balance near impossible, and it pisses off the warriors who want to see big numbers in PVP. Instead of going straight to the damage numbers, add a mini-stun to starsurge procs, or make steady shot give you a damage reduction for 3 seconds or something (not real suggestions just throwing stuff out there). Things like this have the smallest effect on PVE, which makes them happy, but the world of a difference to the people who want to PVP on their hunter, but feel like they can't.

[Socra]

If you watched any tournaments lately you would not say mages have some of the best survivability. Unless they are playing MLS I guess, but that's hardly fair. Locks and rogues are the real offenders atm, because blizzard gave into the QQ about their damage and overbuffed them. If they are unkillable with insane CC then their damage SHOULD be the weak point. Apparently sub rogues actually have the highest single target dps of any spec, which is ridiculous. Affliction damage is too high and too unpreventable for an unkillable cc-crazy class as well. Hence, RLS in its current state.

[Itisamuh]

If you watched any tournaments lately you would not say mages have some of the best survivability. Unless they are playing MLS I guess, but that's hardly fair. Locks and rogues are the real offenders atm, because blizzard gave into the QQ about their damage and overbuffed them. If they are unkillable with insane CC then their damage SHOULD be the weak point. Apparently sub rogues actually have the highest single target dps of any spec, which is ridiculous. Affliction damage is too high and too unpreventable for an unkillable cc-crazy class as well. Hence, RLS in its current state.

Rogues are fine, and warlocks are weak as hell. They have pathetic damage and survivability without a pocket healer and pocket burst class with them. And before you say it, Blizzard has made it clear that balance is not around arena anymore, nor should it be. People need to stop basing their opinions off of arena statistics and actually look at how things really are.

To the point of the thread, you might as well get used to it. A game with multiple classes and roles will simply never be balanced. Just have whatever limited fun is available and try not to expect too much. Play a shooter if you expect perfect balance.

[Epiphanes]

Rogues are fine, and warlocks are weak as hell. They have pathetic damage and survivability without a pocket healer and pocket burst class with them. And before you say it, Blizzard has made it clear that balance is not around arena anymore, nor should it be. People need to stop basing their opinions off of arena statistics and actually look at how things really are.

To the point of the thread, you might as well get used to it. A game with multiple classes and roles will simply never be balanced. Just have whatever limited fun is available and try not to expect too much. Play a shooter if you expect perfect balance.

OP has no idea what they're talking about.

[Socra]

So what is it balanced around, RBGs? Because many high rated RBG groups run with TWO affliction warlocks. and EVERY SINGLE RBG team has a sub rogue.

[Feranor]

So what is it balanced around, RBGs? Because many high rated RBG groups run with TWO affliction warlocks. and EVERY SINGLE RBG team has a sub rogue.

The same it has always been balanced around. PvE, QQ, and quite possibly a couple of favourite classes.

Edit: To add something a little more constructive, though:

WoW PvP merely distinguishes between "heal" and "damage" as possible roles (with the exception of flag carrier). It doesn't have a "control" or "support" role. There are just some "damage" classes that also happen to be controllers or supporters, on top of everything else. This is a large part of the imbalance problem.

[iWolfBanei]

WoW PvP merely distinguishes between "heal" and "damage" as possible roles

While I agree, I think there is much more to it than that.

You could break it down like this:

Healers
Raw Healing Output = Paladin > Shaman > Priest > Druid
Ability to do Damage = Priest > Druid > Shaman > Paladin
Amount of CC = Priest > Druid > Shaman > Paladin
Survivability (when alone) = Paladin > Shaman > Priest > Druid
Heals still ticking while CC'd = Druid > Shaman > Priest > Paladin.
Amount of CDs = Paladin > Shaman > Priest > Druid

If you gave +4 for being best, +3 for second, +2 for third etc using this example.


Priest = +2, +4, +4, +2, +2, +2 = 16
Shaman = +3, +2, +2, +3, +3, +3 = 16
Paladin = +4, +1, +1, +4, +1, +4 = 15
Druid = +1, +3, +3, +1, +4, +1 = 13


Then you could look at the amount each class has to cast, compare it to popular DPS crowd controls (priest can break sheep with PWeath) etc.

It'd take a long time. Ofcourse, this is all theoretical. But I think there is much more to WoW balance than 'DPS' and 'Healer'.

[keese]

If you watched any tournaments lately you would not say mages have some of the best survivability. Unless they are playing MLS I guess, but that's hardly fair. Locks and rogues are the real offenders atm, because blizzard gave into the QQ about their damage and overbuffed them. If they are unkillable with insane CC then their damage SHOULD be the weak point. Apparently sub rogues actually have the highest single target dps of any spec, which is ridiculous. Affliction damage is too high and too unpreventable for an unkillable cc-crazy class as well. Hence, RLS in its current state.

Stop focusing on the specific examples I used and focus more on the idea that i presented.

Wouldn't it be better if Blizzard balanced classes if they used the control, survivability, damage model i used?

[Kekkeri]

While I agree, I think there is much more to it than that.

You could break it down like this:

Healers
Raw Healing Output = Paladin > Shaman > Priest > Druid
Ability to do Damage = Priest > Druid > Shaman > Paladin
Amount of CC = Priest > Druid > Shaman > Paladin
Survivability (when alone) = Paladin > Shaman > Priest > Druid
Heals still ticking while CC'd = Druid > Shaman > Priest > Paladin.
Amount of CDs = Paladin > Shaman > Priest > Druid

If you gave +4 for being best, +3 for second, +2 for third etc using this example.


Priest = +2, +4, +4, +2, +2, +2 = 16
Shaman = +3, +2, +2, +3, +3, +3 = 16
Paladin = +4, +1, +1, +4, +1, +4 = 15
Druid = +1, +3, +3, +1, +4, +1 = 13


Then you could look at the amount each class has to cast, compare it to popular DPS crowd controls (priest can break sheep with PWeath) etc.

It'd take a long time. Ofcourse, this is all theoretical. But I think there is much more to WoW balance than 'DPS' and 'Healer'.

While maybe I disagree with one or two of those rankings (idk) - really good post.

@OP:

The "god tier" of classes atm is probably: Disc Priests, Resto Shamans, Warlocks, Rogues, Mages. (In no order)

These classes just have more in all 3 categories you listed than any of the other classes. All classes have all 3 parts, on paper, moonkins have undispellable cyclone, roots, solar beam, typhoon, mushroom slow; it's just the current metagame doesn't allow any casting, and has rogues in it which hard-counter boomkins.

[Nyaldee]

If you watched any tournaments lately you would not say mages have some of the best survivability. Unless they are playing MLS I guess, but that's hardly fair. Locks and rogues are the real offenders atm, because blizzard gave into the QQ about their damage and overbuffed them. If they are unkillable with insane CC then their damage SHOULD be the weak point. Apparently sub rogues actually have the highest single target dps of any spec, which is ridiculous. Affliction damage is too high and too unpreventable for an unkillable cc-crazy class as well. Hence, RLS in its current state.

Tournaments aren't a showcase of class state, since everything can happen in such a small scale (one team more nervous in offline play, somebody missing addons he's accustomed to etc.) - especially in WoW where teams come and go and tournaments happens once in a few moons. Besides tournaments always roll with a forced rules that has nothing to do with real state of WoW ladders (flooded with top tier PVE gear), and if you look on ladders mages are holding their ground just fine.

If you're blindly looking on recent tournaments it's worth mentioning that couple of them won hunter teams. Are they real offenders? Guess not.

Imo rogues are to take majority of blame - in their current state they're strongest anticaster and strongest antimelee, thus good RMPs and RLS reigning supreme, that leads to decline of shadowcleave, LSD2, shadowplay, MLS and melee setups (too hard to zerg a healer inbetween gouges, blinds, stuns and 70% snare). So in world top 3v3 we've RLS/RMP/Junglecleave (probably the only setup that can outzerg rogue setups).