My issues with Warlocks.

[Melllvar]

I know I don't have a massive post count a shiny picture underneath my post but here me out.

I came back to Warcraft a few days ago, I haven't played for over six months and I decided upon returning to the game to give time to my warlock (gnome ftw) who was sitting around lv 35 ish and for which I'd pvp'd pretty much relentlessly before the patch, It was also fully heir-loomed equipped because at the start of the year I leveled up a mage...

Now heres my point. If someone was to ask me 'what class should I be? A Warlock or a Mage.' I would say Mage 100% of the time. Warlocks are so much worse than Mages It's pretty shameful tbh.

Now I know people will ring out 'game is only balanced for lv 85' or 'warlocks pwn in arena' or 'lol another mages are op thread' or something but I just need to vent what I know to be true.

PVE

If your levelling up a warlock through the dungeon finder your dps will always be worse than a similairly geared frost or arcane mage. On one end are cast times are huge while dots on enemies that with todays upgraded classes steamroll through most dungeon mobs and bosses and are pretty neglible compared to massive nukes such as frostbolt and arcane blast. Fire under level 70 doesnt have the crit rating to be as good early on but it's still comparative with any warlock spec.

PVP

Anyone will tell you that Frost mages are the demi gods of -85 pvp. Lets say a rogue sneaks up on a mage, now firstly I'll have ice shield and mana shield up, second I'll freeze them in place, blink and then nuke accordingly, dead rogue, simple. A Warlock doesn't get teleport until LEVEL 78! By that time he'll have been ganked by hundreds of rogues because of terrible mobility, dots which means he has to outlast enemies in an environment which is never 1 on 1, pitiful self healing, fear which can be 'resisted' (yeah thanks for that) and of course no shield other than 1 which is only marginally useful if you go destruction

Oh and speaking of destruction, incinerate, arguably the most important move in a Destro lok's arsenal, is learnt at lv 64! Thats like Mages learning arcane missiles around the lv 50 mark.

Utility
Again the Mage wins, so from early levels you can teleport freely across azeroth, comparable to warlocks... oh yeah. They never have to buy food again (yeah those reagent bills must sting) and of course the fact that they have moves like the aforementioned blink, invisibility, ice block, the list could go on.

Warlocks are according to warcraftrealms are least played class in the game. Next time you do a Battleground at any level note the warlock pop, I'd say in 70-80 of all my bg's I've been the only 1. Like I said Blizzard knows it, Warlocks are gonna be lethal in Mists, self healing at level 15, improved demons, death coil on a 45 second CD (finally!) a Pala bubble as well no less, Blizzard seemingly know that the advertisement for Warlocks atm is pretty dire compared to Mages, who they will always be judged against.

All this said, I'm still gonna level this warlock and hopefully main it, I know that Warlocks aren't completely gimped and there are times when I think 'yep this is the class I wanna main' but sometimes I really think Blizzard just ignored them. Maybe because the Lok community is so small anyway that they're voice isnt loud enough.

Anyone agree or think that I'm giving warlocks a raw deal?

[MaotheKing]

I'm kind to give you my opinion. Even though I've never touched a warlock in pvp, I feel it's like comparing a criminal to an armed cop. If I am the black guy, I'm screwed. With the warlocks instant fear it's almost as painful as a needle under your nail.

Otherwise in PvE they're beast. Dot up, fill in with some Shadow Bolts, and kaboom, you got 30k dps easily.

[DoogH]

Frost mages are fine in high level arenas. They only dominate BG's and low level Arenas. I do think they have excessive CC but that will be changed in MoP.

Rogues on the other hand, are pretty much unstoppable by all casters... Frost mages can't really deal with them either, although they deal with them the best out of all the casters.

You forget that rogues can silence and slow a mage for ages, which not even frost mages can counter.

[Bormes]

I'm kind to give you my opinion. Even though I've never touched a warlock in pvp, I feel it's like comparing a criminal to an armed cop. If I am the black guy, I'm screwed. With the warlocks instant fear it's almost as painful as a needle under your nail.

Otherwise in PvE they're beast. Dot up, fill in with some Shadow Bolts, and kaboom, you got 30k dps easily.

When I see a warlock in a BG I just smile and 10 sec later I have another HK. Very rarely I meet a really good, and really geared lock, and it's a battle, but that's rare. Even the geared ones usually go squish due to the skillcap. They're simply not fun to level. They're PVE rotations are a pain. Lock was my first class, and I want to love it, but whenever I'm looking at that char screen with my multiple 85s, it's usually the last one I want to play. I'd have to agree they're not optimal atm, but sounds like MoP will change everything.

[Krulani]

30k dps is nothing to write home about, in all honesty. I agree that locks are easily the weakest caster this tier, minus Boomkins. However, i strongly disagree with your opinion on warlock PVP. Warlocks are incredibly strong in 3's, 5's, and RBG's. Few dps classes can play effectively on as many comps as warlocks can. RLS, shadowcleave, shadowplay, LSD2, ele/lock/pally, etc. So many viable options where the warlock can be the KEY to victory. Lock dmg is very high, and played well (especially with concern to positioning) are very survivable. RBG's warlocks are almost a "must-have" right up there with rogues.

[so mad bro]

In before "durp durp locks r fien l2p noob"

Ah, too late.

[Taoforums]

I think you should take a look at elemental and enhancement shamans if you think warlocks are terrible :P (playing elemental)

[Bormes]

In before "durp durp locks r fien l2p noob"

Ah, too late.

lol /signed

---------- Post added 2012-02-13 at 03:09 PM ----------

I'm kind to give you my opinion. Even though I've never touched a warlock in pvp, I feel it's like comparing a criminal to an armed cop. If I am the black guy, I'm screwed. With the warlocks instant fear it's almost as painful as a needle under your nail.

Otherwise in PvE they're beast. Dot up, fill in with some Shadow Bolts, and kaboom, you got 30k dps easily.

You sorta discredit urself when u say "Even though I've never touched a warlock in pvp"...and then go on to comment about it, and make a racist comment to boot.

[Yoshimiko]

PVE? Locks are in a wonderful position. Not only are they incredibly useful for their rather unique buffs, but also bring great numbers(highest dps on my server is a Demo Lock).

PVP? Locks are in an AMAZING position. They are key to quite a few top-tier teams. A well played lock can devastate an enemy team on their own.

Locks are fine, at 85. Pre-85...just quit. They're terrible, just be happy that dungeons aren't the best way to level. :P

[Hanto]

PVE

If your levelling up a warlock through the dungeon finder your dps will always be worse than a similairly geared frost or arcane mage. On one end are cast times are huge while dots on enemies that with todays upgraded classes steamroll through most dungeon mobs and bosses and are pretty neglible compared to massive nukes such as frostbolt and arcane blast. Fire under level 70 doesnt have the crit rating to be as good early on but it's still comparative with any warlock spec.

I recently leveled a warlock from the ground up and if you're Demonology and you have the move-while-you-channel Hellfire, you utterly destroy DPS in dungeons while leveling. A lot of BoA geared tanks like to pull lots of mobs and you just jump in there with Hellfire and have your pet do his whirlwind ability and you win. Easiest AoE rotation while leveling until I got to 85 and I always topped the meters on trash. Boss fights, if they were simple Patchwerk style ones, just varied. Arcane mages beat me once I got to end-Northrend+ content but until then Demonology was amazing if played right. Affliction takes too much time to ramp up and bosses die too fast before you get to Cata stuff. Destruction requires a lot of key talents and some gear (afaik) to do well. Don't forget, one of your most important abilities, Demon Soul, is only available once you hit 85 (I think). This helps a lot with steady/effective DPS.

Our lock in our raids does well against our mage, granted neither have the staff (mage almost has it, lock doesn't want to go through the trouble). Usually both are competitive with each other. There are some classes that locks aren't going to beat. But, if played right, they can do amazingly well. Check http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/ that site. Affliction is about in the middle with the other two not far behind.

Just because you don't see the value in the class doesn't mean it has none.

[microtonal]

A couple of points:

1) DPS in leveling dungeons doesn't matter, and anyone who tells you otherwise is an epeen-stroking narcissist. You barely even need a properly specced tank until level 60, and even after that, stuff dies so fast that there's just not enough combat log data to draw a meaningful conclusion from. It's only once you get to Cata normals that you need to start worrying about the DPS meter.

2) PvP isn't balanced around low-level battlegrounds. It's probably not even possible, given the bounty of class-specific idiosyncrasies during leveling, so there's hardly any point in complaining about it.

3) Warlocks at max level are just as dependent on player skill and gear as all the other classes. I've seen great ones and I've seen terrible ones. In the LFR run I did yesterday, both the top and bottom DPS spots were occupied by warlocks.

4) Mages' ability to conjure food doesn't mean that they don't have to buy food at all ever again. Mage cakes aren't stat food. It just means that they don't have to buy vendor food, which isn't that great, because nobody really needs to buy vendor food.

[icedwarrior]

I know I don't have a massive post count a shiny picture underneath my post but here me out.

Okay. I don't see how the number of posts matter when making a point...

I came back to Warcraft a few days ago, I haven't played for over six months and I decided upon returning to the game to give time to my warlock (gnome ftw) who was sitting around lv 35 ish and for which I'd pvp'd pretty much relentlessly before the patch, It was also fully heir-loomed equipped because at the start of the year I leveled up a mage...

Well, yeah, you're trying to balance at level 35. How can Blizzard conceivably balance around every level to make it fair? They can't. Level to 85 and it's better. I know you "don't want to hear it", but Warlocks excel at 85 arena.

Now heres my point. If someone was to ask me 'what class should I be? A Warlock or a Mage.' I would say Mage 100% of the time. Warlocks are so much worse than Mages It's pretty shameful tbh.

Okay. That's subjective. Can't say anything more here.

Now I know people will ring out 'game is only balanced for lv 85' or 'warlocks pwn in arena' or 'lol another mages are op thread' or something but I just need to vent what I know to be true.

Except that is valid. There's no way to balance that many characters at 85 different levels. And, again, I notice the "I know". Well, I know it to be different. Can you prove that wrong? No? See where the problem lies?

PVE

If your levelling up a warlock through the dungeon finder your dps will always be worse than a similairly geared frost or arcane mage. On one end are cast times are huge while dots on enemies that with todays upgraded classes steamroll through most dungeon mobs and bosses and are pretty neglible compared to massive nukes such as frostbolt and arcane blast. Fire under level 70 doesnt have the crit rating to be as good early on but it's still comparative with any warlock spec.

Leveling through the dungeon finder = fair dps meter? Umm, no. First off, the tank will outdps anything, considering the amount of AoE that's going on. Secondly, some classes flat out suck in this situation, especially rogues. Does this mean they suck? No.

PVP

Anyone will tell you that Frost mages are the demi gods of -85 pvp. Lets say a rogue sneaks up on a mage, now firstly I'll have ice shield and mana shield up, second I'll freeze them in place, blink and then nuke accordingly, dead rogue, simple. A Warlock doesn't get teleport until LEVEL 78! By that time he'll have been ganked by hundreds of rogues because of terrible mobility, dots which means he has to outlast enemies in an environment which is never 1 on 1, pitiful self healing, fear which can be 'resisted' (yeah thanks for that) and of course no shield other than 1 which is only marginally useful if you go destruction

Oh and speaking of destruction, incinerate, arguably the most important move in a Destro lok's arsenal, is learnt at lv 64! Thats like Mages learning arcane missiles around the lv 50 mark.

I won't. Are they OP? Probably. Demi gods? No. And, really, I'm resisting the urge to flame here. You're telling me a mage will blink the moment he gets attacked by a frozen in place rogue? Then the mage is god awful and shouldn't beat any competent rogue. There's this thing called Shadow Step...Oh, and the same argument I get the feeling I'm going to be bringing up over and over: THIS.GAME.ISN'T.BALANCED.AROUND.LEVEL.35. Sorry you don't have every tool at your disposal at level 35. Level to 85 and you will. Problem solved.

Utility
Again the Mage wins, so from early levels you can teleport freely across azeroth, comparable to warlocks... oh yeah. They never have to buy food again (yeah those reagent bills must sting) and of course the fact that they have moves like the aforementioned blink, invisibility, ice block, the list could go on.

Locks can summon people to certain locations, they can make Health Stones, etcetc. Don't act like the warlocks have nothing. But that doesn't help your argument, so let's conveniently leave that out.

Warlocks are according to warcraftrealms are least played class in the game. Next time you do a Battleground at any level note the warlock pop, I'd say in 70-80 of all my bg's I've been the only 1. Like I said Blizzard knows it, Warlocks are gonna be lethal in Mists, self healing at level 15, improved demons, death coil on a 45 second CD (finally!) a Pala bubble as well no less, Blizzard seemingly know that the advertisement for Warlocks atm is pretty dire compared to Mages, who they will always be judged against.

And I've seen more than that. In fact, in the 39 bracket (I used to twink there), warlocks were the most OP class in there, HANDS DOWN, NO QUESTION. I had 350+ spell power, and I could cast two DoTs on someone and tab over and they'd die in less than 5 seconds. It was absurd. I'm not sure what you're playing.

All this said, I'm still gonna level this warlock and hopefully main it, I know that Warlocks aren't completely gimped and there are times when I think 'yep this is the class I wanna main' but sometimes I really think Blizzard just ignored them. Maybe because the Lok community is so small anyway that they're voice isnt loud enough.

Good for you, I admire people that play the class that they enjoy. That said, I don't see that you enjoy them, really.

Anyone agree or think that I'm giving warlocks a raw deal?

Not me.

[Nest]

Warlocks are currently the best caster class for PvP.
/thread xddddddd

[Vayshan]

You can complain all you want about how poor and terrible warlocks are (in your opinion). Just don't touch my beloved class! Don't care about PvP and wether or not we get raped by the masses. I like my complicated 'mage' just fine, makes it more noobproof.

[Yekul]

Warlock is my main toon in game right now.

If anyone wants to level one in guild, usually I tell them to go level a priest or mage instead, priests if they want the "dot" class experience. They usually ignore me, and a week later once they're 85 and ~384-390 geared and trying to pull big numbers in raids they whinge to me about how difficult the class is to maximise DPS, and how simcraft rotation is nearly impossible (particularly as demo).

Seriously, if I had another warlock in my group i'd stop playing mine all together and just play my priest. IF I had DI as a priest, output would be roughly the same. I would get the same DPS, for about 1/3rd the effort every raid night.

For low level PvP, mages destroy warlocks because most people aren't very good and just go boom in a deep. For anything 1500+ it comes down to comp more so, and sure warlocks are fantastic, but only when paired with a very specific combo of players (usually, RLS or MLS). In 2s, they're so frustrating to play (but we know 2s is super broken so yeah).

To summarise, I disagree with all of OP's posts about anything less than level 85, because I don't care about those levels. But I completely agree about how frustrating they can be to play right now, particularly if you've experienced the other side of the fence with an equally geared spriest/mage/hunter (survival right now... lawl). Put in significantly more energy to only very marginally beat out the other classes.

Don't have the legendary? Well call it a day and bash your head against the desk. Probably the most frustrating thing about this game has been the fact I was not able to obtain the legendary staff. And it annoys me every single week when I step into DS raids. It's horrible.

BUT, in good news, Warlocks look significantly more "fixed" come MoP. And the best part, I can sacrifice my pet (like in bc!) so when i've had enough of it bugging out constantly, not scaling properly with damage modifiers on fight, or being permastunned for 6 days with no way AT ALL (including GMs) to fix it, I can simply piss it off and enjoy good DPS without an annoying pet.

Oh, and usually those people who make warlocks and gear them, last about ~2-3 weeks before it's all too much for them.

[Desareon]

don't worry, us mages are getting nerfed very soon. And yes, I hate my Lock so much right now, not really fun to play on at all.

[so mad bro]

Warlocks are currently the best caster class for PvP.
/thread xddddddd

Hahahahahahaha.

Infracted.

[parish]

PvP Warlock is a joke, so weak..

[Niberion]

PvP Warlock is a joke, so weak..

That's only for people who haven't mastered the class yet.
Any warlock with 2.7k+ experience that has mastered both affliction and destruction will laugh at that statement..
With this being said, in a random bg going 1v2 and being victorious for me is as easy for me as for the avarage warlock to kill a hunter in 1v1

[parish]

That's only for people who haven't mastered the class yet.
Any warlock with 2.7k+ experience that has mastered both affliction and destruction will laugh at that statement..
With this being said, in a random bg going 1v2 and being victorious for me is as easy for me as for the avarage warlock to kill a hunter in 1v1

Oh yeah? Well i have never ever seen that. I play warlock, and i do ok, but when.. a DK come and bait me the fuck down.
Ifi play hunter? I eat them.