1. #1

    Power Torrent vs Heartsong 4.3.2?

    Hello guys.

    I've seen plenty of Hpals switching from Power Torrent for Heartsong after the patch(es) and I hava simple question:
    Why?

    I haven't really read anything about it but those I've seen is also crit reforged. Perhaps it have something to do with that?
    Well, I dunno so I ask here.

    Thanks,
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  2. #2
    Herald of the Titans Joyful's Avatar
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    Because of this and even before the patch it was very close between them and still is a personal choice if you want to have random throughput or steady and almost never unused regen.
    Last edited by Joyful; 2012-02-13 at 10:12 PM.

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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    Because of this and even before the patch it was very close between them and still is a personal choice if you want to have random throughput or steady and almost never unused regen.
    Well, it doesn't hurt to try it out really.. =)
    Thanks.
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  4. #4
    Current gear has so much haste on it, you can safely reforge to crit. Crit is generally awesome for us, especially if you are using Holy Shock on cooldown to get those Infusion of Light procs.

    And yeah, due to the Judgments of the Pure giving us 80% spirit regen in combat, it really is nice to have that regen. Though I recently got Heart of the Unliving and I have absolutely no problems with mana. So I guess you would need to feel it out.

  5. #5
    Get two weapons and put heartsong on one and power torrent on the other then use whichever one you need at the time.

    I put HS on my heroic Vagaries and PT on my 403 Maw.

    Problem solved

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by mikep4567 View Post
    Current gear has so much haste on it, you can safely reforge to crit. Crit is generally awesome for us, especially if you are using Holy Shock on cooldown to get those Infusion of Light procs.

    And yeah, due to the Judgments of the Pure giving us 80% spirit regen in combat, it really is nice to have that regen. Though I recently got Heart of the Unliving and I have absolutely no problems with mana. So I guess you would need to feel it out.
    Terrible advice. Haste is by far a superior stat in terms of output. Crit shines in certain situations, but it falls below mastery in general. Avoiding problems with mana isn't the goal of spirit, the goal is to be able to cast more powerful heals more often. Unless you are spamming holy radiance and don't run out of mana, more spirit is useless.

    On the threat, I personally use heartsong. I see power torrent proc at the wrong times too often. I agree it's a personal choice though.

  7. #7
    High Overlord savethetuna's Avatar
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    Actually reforging for crit is not a bad idea in a 25 man raid situation. I've seen many holy pally's do it but personally I don't need to because I raid 10s

    But I use power torrent on my Maw of the dragonlord and heartsong on the heroic vagaries!
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Electrum View Post
    Terrible advice. Haste is by far a superior stat in terms of output. Crit shines in certain situations, but it falls below mastery in general. Avoiding problems with mana isn't the goal of spirit, the goal is to be able to cast more powerful heals more often. Unless you are spamming holy radiance and don't run out of mana, more spirit is useless.

    On the threat, I personally use heartsong. I see power torrent proc at the wrong times too often. I agree it's a personal choice though.
    This is true to some extent. Haste is of course the top stat for pure throughput, however for overall healing, crit currently edges out as long as you cannot hit the haste cap to obtain a 5th tick of Holy Radiance. The idea is to get 777 haste (for a 5th tick of HR during Divine Favor) then keep the Spirit>Crit>Mastery>Haste stat priority. Haste is the top stat for straight throughput because it will allow you to cast more spells in a certain period of time. However, Crit will do more overall healing because of the fact that while fully reforged to Crit/Mastery, each heal of HR will do much more healing than each heal of HR reforged to Haste. So, let's say that you get 10 extra casts during an encounter while reforged to Haste. While reforged to Crit/Mastery, you will cast slower, however the extra healing you will do with Crits/Shields will do about as much healing as those extra HR casts, but will also cost less mana, meaning that you can cast more HR's with a Crit/Mastery build than you would be able to with a Haste build, which = more healing.

    Also I support going for Heartsong 100% for every fight other than Ultraxion. I used Heartsong even before 4.3 and the changes to Spirit, but it's definitely a necessity now. Free Spirit >>> random INT proc. You don't want to have to time your Divine Plea or Arcane Torrent (for you BE's) with a random proc, you generally want to use Divine Plea whenever there is very minimal damage going out to the raid where you do not need to do much healing.
    Last edited by Eviljoe; 2012-02-15 at 07:54 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by chief View Post
    Hello guys.

    I've seen plenty of Hpals switching from Power Torrent for Heartsong after the patch(es) and I hava simple question:
    Why?

    I haven't really read anything about it but those I've seen is also crit reforged. Perhaps it have something to do with that?
    Well, I dunno so I ask here.

    Thanks,
    What do you mean "switching"? PT was never better than HS except inside of the perfect storm on July 7th of 2077, with a rabbit foot tied to a four leaf clover pressing your heal buttons while a leprechaun riding a unicorn crosses it's fingers behind you... And even then only on paper.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Electrum View Post
    Terrible advice. Haste is by far a superior stat in terms of output. Crit shines in certain situations, but it falls below mastery in general. Avoiding problems with mana isn't the goal of spirit, the goal is to be able to cast more powerful heals more often. Unless you are spamming holy radiance and don't run out of mana, more spirit is useless.

    On the threat, I personally use heartsong. I see power torrent proc at the wrong times too often. I agree it's a personal choice though.
    Actually this has been proven untrue by many recently, especially in say, 25man raiding. Pallies going full mastery/crit doing as much healing as going full haste. On the issue of the 'goal' of spirit, you're splitting hairs.

  11. #11
    Definitely heartsong for spine and madness. Other bosses are w/e.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikep4567 View Post
    Actually this has been proven untrue by many recently, especially in say, 25man raiding. Pallies going full mastery/crit doing as much healing as going full haste. On the issue of the 'goal' of spirit, you're splitting hairs.
    You said "same healing" as in HPS. Don't forget haste is what let's you save people from dying when theyre low on health.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    What do you mean "switching"? PT was never better than HS except inside of the perfect storm on July 7th of 2077, with a rabbit foot tied to a four leaf clover pressing your heal buttons while a leprechaun riding a unicorn crosses it's fingers behind you... And even then only on paper.
    May be the best answer to this question ever.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by mikep4567 View Post
    Actually this has been proven untrue by many recently, especially in say, 25man raiding. Pallies going full mastery/crit doing as much healing as going full haste. On the issue of the 'goal' of spirit, you're splitting hairs.
    How exactly do you determine that a paladin did "as much healing as going full haste"?

  14. #14
    I ended up reforging to crit for heroic ultraxion. I lost 9% haste for roughly 6% crit. When I reforged the haste to mastery, I gained 8% mastery. All and all, it's pretty clear just based on this that haste is the best throughout put stat - it doesn't rely on chance, affects all heals, and gives the most benefit point for point. Anyway, doing some calculations for ultraxion specifically, between crit and mastery, as haste doesn't help with a holy radiance rotation, crit seems to win.

    Say HR hits for 5000. That makes the ticks roughly 1000 (by my math and heals). The 8% mastery I could get only affects the 5000, meaning it gives an additional 400 healing per holy radiance. The crit, however, affects the entire 8000 (assuming 3 ticks). That means the 6% crit adds an -average- of 480 healing per holy radiance. In addition, the more ticks you get, divine favor, lust, and to the extreme, the blue buff, the more crit pulls ahead. With all that haste, crit gains 60 extra healing per cast of holy radiance for every additional tick. It doesn't seem like much, but it adds up, and with real values and the +3% crit effect meta, it can make the difference between a death or a kill.
    Post I did earlier talking about my reforging for heroic ultraxion.

    Haste is better throughput point for point. Specifically for holy radiance spam and especially with a rotation since haste won't help, crit edges out because of the mana cost. For single target heals mastery is better when you're strictly tank healing. Otherwise, haste is preferred. Outside of 25M where you have specific roles or for specific fights where either of the above situations are true, haste is better, like I said. You do always want 777 haste, of course.
    Last edited by Electrum; 2012-02-16 at 12:55 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    What do you mean "switching"? PT was never better than HS except inside of the perfect storm on July 7th of 2077, with a rabbit foot tied to a four leaf clover pressing your heal buttons while a leprechaun riding a unicorn crosses it's fingers behind you... And even then only on paper.
    Well with how little mana you needed in Firelands it wasn't really necessary to use HS, especially with how little extra regen it gave before the spirit buff.
    The higher mana regen from spirit combined with the higher mana usage from the changed HR make HS the superior enchant in 4.3. (again only up to the point where you no longer need more regen which is clearly doable even in t13 content).
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  16. #16
    Best Kitten Simca's Avatar
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    Heartsong.

    If you feel you have too much regen, start dropping Spirit in other places first. Power Torrent is a volatile proc and not better than reforging spirit off.
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