[GW2] Engineer discussion

[DrakeWurrum]

Remember it's not a kit anymore.

I keep hoping they added a new kit in it's place.

[Glytch]

Kinda hard to follow when the last two sentences you made in this thread are somewhat a grammatical enigma. But i believe what you said was that Elixir X is going to far with randomness. But that most examples Teldo gave were a bit of a stretch.

who is teldo?

most complaints of randomness in gw2 are silly

random conditions on chaos storm, chaos armor, winds of chaos are fine. its many conditions easily to muck up condition removals. they also have a subset of conditions, not all of them, that follow a specific theme

elixir H should have swiftness replaced with retaliation. at that point its fine for what its trying to do, a defensive boon.
B is fine for its focus, offense

the randomness of C is ok since its a full condition wipe primarily. the extra conditions also dont have direct counterparts (theres more than boons)

U is a bit of a wild card in its variability, could be worked on

the thief random boon traits are each offensive in nature, its doing what B is trying to do

the only 2 major offenders are elixir X and U. and just becuase they are bad apples doesnt damn every other random ability in gw2

as far as elixirs go out of the "random" ones only 3 have no primary effect with the randomness being a secondary bonus (that is, you should NOT be relying on it). X, U, B. X and U are too variable, but x more so than U. X does have the central theme of a "form" but those forms need more unity between them for the random functionality to be worth it. U specializes in some sort of mobility besides the frenzy effect, which should be changed to another movement ability, thus solidifying it's kit of utility movement. at that point its unified and reliable enough to be worth taking. B is a little off with swiftness but thats because there only 2 truly offensive boons and having a chance between 2 is too predictable.

everything else has a primary effect that you are using the skill for. if you use elixir H purely for the regen then... you're fucking doing it wrong. sorry

[terrahero]

who is teldo?

most complaints of randomness in gw2 are silly

random conditions on chaos storm, chaos armor, winds of chaos are fine. its many conditions easily to muck up condition removals. they also have a subset of conditions, not all of them, that follow a specific theme

elixir H should have swiftness replaced with retaliation. at that point its fine for what its trying to do, a defensive boon.
B is fine for its focus, offense

the randomness of C is ok since its a full condition wipe primarily. the extra conditions also dont have direct counterparts (theres more than boons)

U is a bit of a wild card in its variability, could be worked on

the thief random boon traits are each offensive in nature, its doing what B is trying to do

the only 2 major offenders are elixir X and U. and just becuase they are bad apples doesnt damn every other random ability in gw2

as far as elixirs go out of the "random" ones only 3 have no primary effect with the randomness being a secondary bonus (that is, you should NOT be relying on it). X, U, B. X and U are too variable, but x more so than U. X does have the central theme of a "form" but those forms need more unity between them for the random functionality to be worth it. U specializes in some sort of mobility besides the frenzy effect, which should be changed to another movement ability, thus solidifying it's kit of utility movement. at that point its unified and reliable enough to be worth taking. B is a little off with swiftness but thats because there only 2 truly offensive boons and having a chance between 2 is too predictable.

everything else has a primary effect that you are using the skill for. if you use elixir H purely for the regen then... you're fucking doing it wrong. sorry

Nobody here has said that all random effects are bad, but some are pushing it and can be gamechanging. And saying "ow well, its a bonus random effect so you just shouldnt rely on it" is just, downright, silly. Because if you do get lucky with it, you can change the outcome of a game. Imagine getting Swiftness with Throw Elixir B and you and your allies get faster to a node because of that to neutralize it and prevent a loss. Thats a very likely possibility. And that would be the outcome of a roll of the dice.

And the same with Elixir H, getting Protection can be a big help and turn a fight in your favor because its so good under presure. So, did you win because you just lucked out and got Protection to help you weather the damage or because you really were better? And it could mean capturing a node or losing a node.
Not a major problem in the beginners bracket, but in the competitive brackets this can be really bad. And i dont see how some of these random effects can be justified in an eSports game. Which is what they are aiming for.

[DrakeWurrum]

Did you win because you lucked out with how often you crit, or because you really were better?

RNG is RNG. The whole point of randomness is luck. I say, be glad you can't randomly get a negative/null effect.

[Deleted]

Nobody here has said that all random effects are bad, but some are pushing it and can be gamechanging. And saying "ow well, its a bonus random effect so you just shouldnt rely on it" is just, downright, silly. Because if you do get lucky with it, you can change the outcome of a game. Imagine getting Swiftness with Throw Elixir B and you and your allies get faster to a node because of that to neutralize it and prevent a loss. Thats a very likely possibility. And that would be the outcome of a roll of the dice.

And the same with Elixir H, getting Protection can be a big help and turn a fight in your favor because its so good under presure. So, did you win because you just lucked out and got Protection to help you weather the damage or because you really were better? And it could mean capturing a node or losing a node.
Not a major problem in the beginners bracket, but in the competitive brackets this can be really bad. And i dont see how some of these random effects can be justified in an eSports game. Which is what they are aiming for.

What if the intent is for the really skilled players to notice what boon they get, and play accordingly? Say you get protection - fine, you rush into the thick of things and play tank for a while. Swiftness? Get kiting, bro! Regeneration? Stand back and regen for a bit, so you can come back strong later.

That's just my thoughts on it, anyway. Since, as DrakeWurrum said, it can't be a negative/null effect.

[Gouky]

want to try this class and ROG.
Want to see the world in flames muahahahah

[Glytch]

What if the intent is for the really skilled players to notice what boon they get, and play accordingly? Say you get protection - fine, you rush into the thick of things and play tank for a while. Swiftness? Get kiting, bro! Regeneration? Stand back and regen for a bit, so you can come back strong later.

That's just my thoughts on it, anyway. Since, as DrakeWurrum said, it can't be a negative/null effect.

exactly

in addition the random perks you get are so small that if they truely are "game changing" then we're talking healthpools that are within 5% of each other. almost negligible

[terrahero]

What if the intent is for the really skilled players to notice what boon they get, and play accordingly? Say you get protection - fine, you rush into the thick of things and play tank for a while. Swiftness? Get kiting, bro! Regeneration? Stand back and regen for a bit, so you can come back strong later.

That's just my thoughts on it, anyway. Since, as DrakeWurrum said, it can't be a negative/null effect.

Doesnt work like that. The abilities that are a problem are typically reactive, you use them in a response to someone else's actions against you. So your response has to be reliable, you press a button you think you need for a certain effect. And if the effect isnt what you needed, then you might die.
You cant leave such descisions up to random chance. The impact varies per ability, and Elixir X is an example of an ability you use to take initiative but is still using a terrible design. Incase of Elixir U it could even end up debuffing you due to drawbacks on certain boons outweighting the benefits and does this the worst.

[Glytch]

Doesnt work like that. The abilities that are a problem are typically reactive, you use them in a response to someone else's actions against you. So your response has to be reliable, you press a button you think you need for a certain effect. And if the effect isnt what you needed, then you might die.
You cant leave such descisions up to random chance. The impact varies per ability, and Elixir X is an example of an ability you use to take initiative but is still using a terrible design. Incase of Elixir U it could even end up debuffing you due to drawbacks on certain boons outweighting the benefits and does this the worst.

elixir u: crit damage, endurance regen, or 50% move speed increase

yea i guess it'd be a bad thing if you dont know how to let go of your movement key and travel farther than you wanted to with QZ

then if thats the case you have bigger problems

also, none of those effects are boons

[Squirrelbanes]

The flipside of it being random for you seems, obviosuly, that it's also random for who ur playing against.
It's easy from animations to know what your opponent is going to do. But in a case of a random boon it's whoever reacts to it the best who wins.
To me it just seems that it will give good players a way to excel, because every boon will be useful in a way.
I really like some of the changes they've recently made to engineer. Especially that knockback explosion. Back into the path of pain. Delicious.

[Meun]

Just preordered to get into this weekends beta so I've been messing around with specs on gw2tools. Anyone have some specs they want to link that they played with and enjoyed?

[terrahero]

elixir u: crit damage, endurance regen, or 50% move speed increase

yea i guess it'd be a bad thing if you dont know how to let go of your movement key and travel farther than you wanted to with QZ

then if thats the case you have bigger problems

also, none of those effects are boons

There was talk that effects like Quickening Zephyr, Frenzy and Haste are given drawbacks. I think Frenzy increases the damage you take or something.
But even if these drawbacks arent applied, or not applied to Elixir U, its still a bad design. The effect Frenzy increases critical damage which is an offensive stat, one that is not very valueable for builds that dont go for Crit i might add. Quickening Zephyr is best for either escaping or catching someone. And Haste is just to be able to avoid more damage and stay alive.

Three effects with completely different purposes. If you run into someones face, ready to blow him up with your awesome crit damage but get something like Quickening Zephyr instead, you wont gain anything from it. Likewise, if you are underpresure and desperately trying to hold a point as long as possible, and you want Haste to stay alive longer without running away, but get Frenzy instead it didnt help at all.

These effects are all very strong, but in their own respective situations. And now imagine that the drawbacks are put into play aswell, and you take more damage while under Frenzy. Then that last situation just got worst when you used Elixir U. But even without any drawbacks to these effects, it is already a horrible design.

Just preordered to get into this weekends beta so I've been messing around with specs on gw2tools. Anyone have some specs they want to link that they played with and enjoyed?

Check out Burning Engineer. Its basicly dual-pistol that applies Burning from various attacks and skills aswell as other DoTs. It has a high-chance to proc Swiftness and also gain Vigor when Swiftness procs. So you're mobile and your damage is pretty decent single-target, that doesnt require you to be in the middle of the fight all the time like you would with the Bomb Kit.

[Deleted]

Probably going to try out a condition focused engineer - principles being debuffs, control and damage done to controlled targets

http://www.gw2tools.com/skills#e;ppa...daa;bbaa;ZUhdY

Between glue shot and net turret this build has plenty of immobilisation effects, and thanks to traints in the firearms tree I do 5% more damage to immobilised targets, as well as crippling them.

Flamethrower kit is there for general close range damage to grouped up targets. Grenade kit will be my principle "condition application" kit, allowing me to inflict bleeds, poisons, chills and blindness. Thanks to traits ALL explosions cause bleeding, allowing for some hefty dot damage to stack up.

Passive trait bonuses mean I gain 300 precision (crit chance), 100 prowess (crit damage), 30% condition duration, 30% condition damage and 10% reduced recharge rate on toolbelt skills.

Thanks to traits crits have:
A chance to inflict yet another bleed
A chance to cause vulnerability
100% chance to cause burning from explosive critical hits

Explosives will:
Cause burning on crit
Inflict vulnerability
Do 10% more damage

So essentially, this is a debuff focused build, with an emphasis on crit - looks fairly tasting, very much looking forward to testing it!

[terrahero]

snip

Wait and see if and how Grenade Kit is changed first. Because so far Grenade kit has been a huge disapointment. Dealing low damage and being very clunky to use, its qutie easy to miss targets that arent right next to you.

But, what you want, sounds a lot like the Bomberman build. Basicly you dont use Grenade but use Bomb Kit instead. It deals more damage and also has a very strong Burning. You use it with Pistol/shield and you apply poison and bleeds with your pistol as your shield gives you some more control (aoe knockback, stun/daze, reflect ranged attacks). But pistol/pistol also works well for the extra Burning from the offhand pistol.
And then instead of the Big Pouch trait (chance for extra grenade) you get Forcefull Explosives (larger radius on bombs/mines) which is usefull as its easier to hit enemies and hit multiple enemies.

In the Firearms tree i'd strongly recommend you get Hair Trigger for the 20% cooldown reduction on your pistols cooldowns. That will net you more damage then 5% in specific situations.
Flamethrower is a decent kit, but more so for its control then its actual damage because there is surprisingly very little Condition damage on the Flamethrower. Just on Napalm. But Airblast (knockback) and Backdraft (pull) are very usefull to control enemies, knock em off high places/out of capture points (so you can neutralize) or pull them to you into Napalm or away from your allies or their capturepoint (so an ally can neutralize).

Or maybe the Grenade kit isnt terribad anymore and your build would be quite interesting to try out.

[Glytch]

There was talk that effects like Quickening Zephyr, Frenzy and Haste are given drawbacks. I think Frenzy increases the damage you take or something.

QZ and frenzy dont have drawbacks in gw2

[PonyCannon]

QZ and frenzy dont have drawbacks in gw2

Assuming the supposed leaked patch notes awhile back for warriors are true. Frenzy will have a drawback this coming BWE, 50% increased damage taken. QZ idk if its changing.

[terrahero]

QZ and frenzy dont have drawbacks in gw2

Running out of stuff to nitpick?

[Glytch]

Running out of stuff to nitpick?

whats the point? you're just going to hand wave all my arguments away

again

and scream from the top of your lungs that you are right everyone else is wrong with absolutely zero logic and/or backup

[mccord]

Assuming the supposed leaked patch notes awhile back for warriors are true. Frenzy will have a drawback this coming BWE, 50% increased damage taken. QZ idk if its changing.

Yeah there were also leaked (and now deleted) engineer videos a few days ago.
Elixir U seems to only give Quickness now, with 1 of 3 possible random drawbacks from the corresponding skills of other classes:
Q.Zephyr: you cannot be healed
Haste: regen no endurance
Frenzy: take 50% more damage
screenshot: i.imgur.com/FETPH.jpg

There's other stuff in this post on reddit: reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/wl7cn/3_part_spvp_engineer_guide_which_seems_to_use_the/c5ea09t

[terrahero]

whats the point? you're just going to hand wave all my arguments away

again

and scream from the top of your lungs that you are right everyone else is wrong with absolutely zero logic and/or backup

So thats a yes?