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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Not really. The skills do different things.

    For the ranger, are the Shortbow and the Longbow ridiculously close to being the same thing? Or do they have different abilities with some different effects?

    In the case of grenades vs bombs, at the very least the animations involved will be different since... well one is a grenade, while the other is a bomb that the engineer manually lights (and is much more crude).

    In the case of bombs vs mines, the only thing the mine kit does is damage. In five different locations that can be detonated at any time.
    His point i believe was that Bombs dont fill any real role. Their current implementation just seems crude and ineffective, it needs something to make it a more useable kit in an actual combat situation. Other then throwing a bomb at your feet (which is lol as it it is) and hope the enemy sticks around long enough to have it blow up in their face.

    You could make them throwable, but then whats the difference between bombs and grenades? Make then placed and detonated by the player, and you're getting pretty close to what mines can do. And its a damn shame it looks so unwieldy because some of the effects are pretty cool. Fire bomb (burn), Concussion Bomb (inflict Daze), Smoke Bomb (blind), Glue bomb (immobilize).

    But compared to the Grenade kit, if i can be honest, its not that great. With grenades i can also blind only at range and with a much shorter cooldown.
    Grenades can be used to inflict Bleed or Poison. Both being better then Burning, especially poison as it reduces healing by 33% aswell. Again, shorter cooldown.
    Instead of rooting someone with the glue bomb you can Chill them and reduces speed by 66%, aswell as recharge in skill cooldown by 66%. IMO a superior effect to just rooting for a few seconds. And again with a much lower cooldown for grenades.

    The only thing bombs got that a grenade doesnt is the Daze. Maybe bombs are dealing a ton more damage to make up for their lenghty cooldowns and difficult to use nature. But in all fairness, utility slots are limited and if i was faced with a picking an explosives kit id go Grenades first, no question. And if i could choose a second, im even thinking Mines over Bomb because they just seem awesome for controling an area.

    Just speculating ofcourse.

  2. #202
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    You people disapoint me, all of you look at the bomb kit and think "oh Melee range dps that people can run away from, must be useless" well... Maybe you use them DEFEBSIVELY! There's traits that make them heal, and I'm pretty sure you can make them apply vulnerability too.

    And I love how no one has commented on the whole using them in the capture zine thing I said earlier, no one is going to wantto stand in a capture pout completely covered in explosives! Also you could use ten to defend the gates in WvW, jump down throw all your bombs down at gate and run away ad watch the fireworks as all the tunnel bision idiots go up like the fourth of July as they get rooted in a burning field and likely a ton of other aoes...
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    You people disapoint me, all of you look at the bomb kit and think "oh Melee range dps that people can run away from, must be useless" well... Maybe you use them DEFEBSIVELY! There's traits that make them heal, and I'm pretty sure you can make them apply vulnerability too.

    And I love how no one has commented on the whole using them in the capture zine thing I said earlier, no one is going to wantto stand in a capture pout completely covered in explosives! Also you could use ten to defend the gates in WvW, jump down throw all your bombs down at gate and run away ad watch the fireworks as all the tunnel bision idiots go up like the fourth of July as they get rooted in a burning field and likely a ton of other aoes...
    Point is the bomb kit should be usefull without traits aswell. And if you want to control an area Mines do a much better job, you can cover a much larger area and even have control over when you want to to blow up.

  4. #204
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrahero View Post
    Point is the bomb kit should be usefull without traits aswell. And if you want to control an area Mines do a much better job, you can cover a much larger area and even have control over when you want to to blow up.
    No, they dont, you people are so thick, you seem to think damage is ye end all be all of control, which is stupid and wrong. The bomb kit has so much more utility then the mines by a large margin, you just have to be more manipulative with it. And I see plenty of uses with the bomb kit but you will never see them simply because "you can't control when they blow up/they don't do enough damage"
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    No, they dont, you people are so thick, you seem to think damage is ye end all be all of control, which is stupid and wrong. The bomb kit has so much more utility then the mines by a large margin, you just have to be more manipulative with it. And I see plenty of uses with the bomb kit but you will never see them simply because "you can't control when they blow up/they don't do enough damage"
    I never said damage is the end all, the problem of getting bombs to reliably hit a target is the problem. But be my guest, go ahead and use the bomb kit if you feel itll do you good. Personally im not gona muck around with the bomb kit when i can safely and accuratly use grenades instead.

  6. #206
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrahero View Post
    You could make them throwable, but then whats the difference between bombs and grenades?
    The post you quoted answered this question. Look at what the bomb skills do, and look at what the grenade skills do.

    They have different effects. If you make Bombs throwable, you won't lose that. If you make them explodable on command like with mines... Bombs won't do just damage the way mines do.

    What effects are "better" is entirely subjective.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    The post you quoted answered this question. Look at what the bomb skills do, and look at what the grenade skills do.

    They have different effects. If you make Bombs throwable, you won't lose that. If you make them explodable on command like with mines... Bombs won't do just damage the way mines do.

    What effects are "better" is entirely subjective.
    Burning and Bleeding are very similar. The difference is that Burning is stacked to last longer and Bleeding stacked to simply deal more damage per tick. Poison also is a DoT that stacks in duration like Burning, but as an added debuff reduces outgoing heals by 33%. The only thing we do not know is how the damage done scales, logically id think Poison would deal the least damage because it also debuffs healing done.
    Not exactly like the bomb kit really provides anything different in that department. I can use the Bleed from Grenades for straigth up damage, and even stack it with the Rifle. And Poison for damage or save it when i know a heal is gona be comming soon.

    Blind is straigth up similar. And the grenades do is better if only for the fact it has a MUCH shorter cooldown, less then half.

    Then the last thing is Immobilize vs Chill. They are in the same ballpark that they slow someone down, usefull for kiting. Then it comes down to wether you want a short complete root. Or if you prefer a longer 66% slow with an added 66% longer skill recharge for your victims.

    All in all, they do a very similar job. Damage, DoT and impair movement. Bomb also has a Daze. Do we dedicate a whole kit to just do what grenades do only a little different? No, thats silly. Bombs deserve their own identity. Someone mentioned the idea of having them stick to a target. Not a bad idea, bombs wont go to waste or get avoided so easily. But you maintain the close range and delayed detonation aspect that sets boms appart.

  8. #208
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    No, they dont, you people are so thick, you seem to think damage is ye end all be all of control, which is stupid and wrong. The bomb kit has so much more utility then the mines by a large margin, you just have to be more manipulative with it. And I see plenty of uses with the bomb kit but you will never see them simply because "you can't control when they blow up/they don't do enough damage"
    give it a rest. let them be bad engineers
    The Original Ganksta

    Top 100 US daggers. yeah, you're jelly alright

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    then again i'm pretty sure you're smarter then the average dumbass

  9. #209
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrahero View Post
    Burning and Bleeding are very similar. The difference is that Burning is stacked to last longer and Bleeding stacked to simply deal more damage per tick. Poison also is a DoT that stacks in duration like Burning, but as an added debuff reduces outgoing heals by 33%. The only thing we do not know is how the damage done scales, logically id think Poison would deal the least damage because it also debuffs healing done.
    Not exactly like the bomb kit really provides anything different in that department. I can use the Bleed from Grenades for straigth up damage, and even stack it with the Rifle. And Poison for damage or save it when i know a heal is gona be comming soon.
    Damage unimportant. Numbers can always be tweaked to keep things even.

    Blind is straigth up similar. And the grenades do is better if only for the fact it has a MUCH shorter cooldown, less then half.
    Not really. Blind prevents offensive attacks from hitting.

    Daze prevents you from using any skill. Including heals.

    Then the last thing is Immobilize vs Chill. They are in the same ballpark that they slow someone down, usefull for kiting. Then it comes down to wether you want a short complete root. Or if you prefer a longer 66% slow with an added 66% longer skill recharge for your victims.
    There's a trait that causes immobilizes to also chill, and the only immobs an Engi has (i think) are on OH Pistol and bomb kit. Not that you NEED that trait, but if you like bombs and you want chill, that's an option.

    Either way, while Immob and Chill are similar, they're different. There will be times where you will want the full root.

    All in all, they do a very similar job. Damage, DoT and impair movement. Bomb also has a Daze. Do we dedicate a whole kit to just do what grenades do only a little different? No, thats silly. Bombs deserve their own identity. Someone mentioned the idea of having them stick to a target. Not a bad idea, bombs wont go to waste or get avoided so easily. But you maintain the close range and delayed detonation aspect that sets boms appart.
    Similar, but they're distinct enough, and it wouldn't be hard to make them even more distinct. IMO, Mines should be 100% proximity detonation, while bombs should be controlled detonation.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  10. #210
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by terrahero View Post
    Burning and Bleeding are very similar. The difference is that Burning is stacked to last longer and Bleeding stacked to simply deal more damage per tick. Poison also is a DoT that stacks in duration like Burning, but as an added debuff reduces outgoing heals by 33%. The only thing we do not know is how the damage done scales, logically id think Poison would deal the least damage because it also debuffs healing done.
    Not exactly like the bomb kit really provides anything different in that department. I can use the Bleed from Grenades for straigth up damage, and even stack it with the Rifle. And Poison for damage or save it when i know a heal is gona be comming soon.

    Blind is straigth up similar. And the grenades do is better if only for the fact it has a MUCH shorter cooldown, less then half.

    Then the last thing is Immobilize vs Chill. They are in the same ballpark that they slow someone down, usefull for kiting. Then it comes down to wether you want a short complete root. Or if you prefer a longer 66% slow with an added 66% longer skill recharge for your victims.

    All in all, they do a very similar job. Damage, DoT and impair movement. Bomb also has a Daze. Do we dedicate a whole kit to just do what grenades do only a little different? No, thats silly. Bombs deserve their own identity. Someone mentioned the idea of having them stick to a target. Not a bad idea, bombs wont go to waste or get avoided so easily. But you maintain the close range and delayed detonation aspect that sets boms appart.
    i wouldnt be surprised one bit if it was burning at the top of the damage list followed by poison and then bleed at the bottom again

    since bleeding stacks it should be weaker until large stacks but burning since it does alot of damage would be logical for duration stacks to prevent burn spikes. poison sicne it stacks duration shouldnt automatically throw it to the bottom b/c of its heal debuff, its the same reasoning why burning should be higher damage than bleed but weaker than burn since it has the heal debuff
    The Original Ganksta

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    then again i'm pretty sure you're smarter then the average dumbass

  11. #211
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
    its the same reasoning why poison should be higher damage than bleed but weaker than burn since it has the heal debuff
    Fixed that for ya.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  12. #212
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Damage unimportant. Numbers can always be tweaked to keep things even.


    Not really. Blind prevents offensive attacks from hitting.

    Daze prevents you from using any skill. Including heals.


    There's a trait that causes immobilizes to also chill, and the only immobs an Engi has (i think) are on OH Pistol and bomb kit. Not that you NEED that trait, but if you like bombs and you want chill, that's an option.

    Either way, while Immob and Chill are similar, they're different. There will be times where you will want the full root.


    Similar, but they're distinct enough, and it wouldn't be hard to make them even more distinct. IMO, Mines should be 100% proximity detonation, while bombs should be controlled detonation.
    also keep in mind: blind and chill are conditions, daze and immob are not. conditions can be extended via expertise
    The Original Ganksta

    Top 100 US daggers. yeah, you're jelly alright

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    then again i'm pretty sure you're smarter then the average dumbass

  13. #213
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
    also keep in mind: blind and chill are conditions, daze and immob are not. conditions can be extended via expertise
    An important distinction, yes. Does this mean you can't remove Immobilization without a skill that applies Stability?
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  14. #214
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Fixed that for ya.
    thanks

    hard to see everything on my phone

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-09 at 11:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    An important distinction, yes. Does this mean you can't remove Immobilization without a skill that applies Stability?
    immob doesn't appear to be on stability's list

    but since its not a "condition" condition removal wont work
    The Original Ganksta

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    then again i'm pretty sure you're smarter then the average dumbass

  15. #215
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Damage unimportant. Numbers can always be tweaked to keep things even.


    Not really. Blind prevents offensive attacks from hitting.

    Daze prevents you from using any skill. Including heals.


    There's a trait that causes immobilizes to also chill, and the only immobs an Engi has (i think) are on OH Pistol and bomb kit. Not that you NEED that trait, but if you like bombs and you want chill, that's an option.

    Either way, while Immob and Chill are similar, they're different. There will be times where you will want the full root.


    Similar, but they're distinct enough, and it wouldn't be hard to make them even more distinct. IMO, Mines should be 100% proximity detonation, while bombs should be controlled detonation.
    I believe the burning bomb creates an aoe fire effec and thesmokebomb produces a smokecloud that applies blind, and ye immobilize, if anything like the pistol offhand, is also a field effect that will immobilize anyone who runs into it as well as if they were hit by the initial blast.
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  16. #216
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
    immob doesn't appear to be on stability's list
    Oh. I hadn't noticed that.

    That sounds like Immob is going to be one of the stronger control effects.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-09 at 03:44 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    I believe the burning bomb creates an aoe fire effec and thesmokebomb produces a smokecloud that applies blind, and ye immobilize, if anything like the pistol offhand, is also a field effect that will immobilize anyone who runs into it as well as if they were hit by the initial blast.
    Yes, Immob should leave behind a sticky "glue" that enemies can belatedly run through to still get stuck (but human players should be smarter than that... right? As if!)

    I also think it's important to note: longer CD abilities mean higher burst damage. It'll be interesting to see if anybody can make effective use of that.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  17. #217
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeWurrum View Post
    Oh. I hadn't noticed that.

    That sounds like Immob is going to be one of the stronger control effects.

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-09 at 03:44 PM ----------


    Yes, Immob should leave behind a sticky "glue" that enemies can belatedly run through to still get stuck (but human players should be smarter than that... right? As if!)

    I also think it's important to note: longer CD abilities mean higher burst damage. It'll be interesting to see if anybody can make effective use of that.
    I think of them getting hit by the glue bomb... as the end of the short miserable lives coming very very soon, because once their stuck there they can't run from all the other bombs >=D!!
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  18. #218
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Bomb aoe also appears to be huge. And can be traited larger. Grenades appear to be fairly concentrated explosions.
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  19. #219
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    I think of them getting hit by the glue bomb... as the end of the short miserable lives coming very very soon, because once their stuck there they can't run from all the other bombs >=D!!
    is that when you rip their body off their skin like an old bandaid?
    The Original Ganksta

    Top 100 US daggers. yeah, you're jelly alright

    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    then again i'm pretty sure you're smarter then the average dumbass

  20. #220
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
    rip their skin off their body like an old bandaid?
    fixt.

    Stop posting from your phone! :O
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

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