Arms Warrior : rerolled rogue...

[tinkabela]

this thread is about is how much more fun a sub rogue is compared to an arms warrior.
And this thread is from a level 70-78 perspective from my rogue (level 85 full cataclysmic + normal gurthalak on my warrior). So I'm not talking directly about the damage output.

yes yes rogues are overpowered, we all know it, but this isn't a nerf rogues thread, although I do agree their damage needs to be toned down a bit.

On my warrior, I have almost no tools available for when I play against a half-way decent player of any class. If I can't completely overpower them with gear, they are probably going to kill me, simply because I lack a lot of basic tools to stay on the target, and the ones I have have very long cooldowns and/or are easily countered. (yes throwdown still stuns if trinketed, and disarm is good vs bad players)

Also, my warrior lacks tools for when the s**t hits the fan, and I need to escape, or heal up etc. I basically have a 3 minute, weak heal (3% a second is not a good heal for an oh s**t button), on a 5 minute shield wall which is usually disarmed. Heroic leap is ok, but when I'm probably slowed more than my opponent is, they will just catch me up.

So, finally got fed up, and I rerolled a rogue...and oh my god the difference! I literally have a tool for every single situation that can possibly present itself, and all on a 'short' (read: not 5 minute) cooldown. And should the unthinkable happen and I start to lose, well hey ho I just vanish.

Got a dot on me? nevermind, just CloS + vanish and i'm free.
Got a bleed on me? nevermind just vanish+sprint away while the warrior/rogue is wondering where I am (next bleed will tick in roughly 6 seconds due to vanish immunity, by which point i'm 100 yards away)

And the cooldowns are not the only thing that makes the difference, it's the variety of skills on offer. As a warrior, I have pretty much 1 or 2 ways to approach a fight, depending on a) are they mage or hunter (don't open with charge), b) are they not mage or hunter (open with charge). While this makes for simpler gameplay, it's boring. But, on my rogue, I can approach a fight in many, many different ways, depending on my opponents class and/or spec, and utilise so much more varying abilities to score the kill. This makes it ultimately far more enjoyable to play than just smashing mortal strike into people.

Now obviously PvP is not balanced around 1v1, but all this translates into arena/RBGs as well, although obviously a warrior will have more backup, they still don't have the tools there.
I'm not sure if rogues are the baseline, and all melee should be brought in line with them (disregarding the OP damage at 85 during dance), or whether they have too many tools, but personally I think all classes should have a few more tools in their kit to approach fights in different ways and have more ways to deal with opponents rather than just mashing damage / long clunky cooldowns.

TL;DR
rogues are a thousand times more fun to play in pvp than warriors are
this thread was not about damage in any way
my rogue is not 85 yet

[Whitey]

Having both classes @ max level I can only agree with you completely.

[Alkzn]

I kind of agree with you on some points you make. But as a warrior, you do have alot of skills that can be used in many different ways. You have the ability to spell reflect, to take one skill that potentially can turn the fight to your advantage (to take one example, spell reflecting on a mages shatter combo) You also have the tool to be immune/break fear wich is kind of huge.

Armor of a warrior is also alot higher on a warrior, meaning you can withstand a good ammount of beating from melees. Yes, rogues have evasion, but yours is a passive "buff"

Also you can hit like a truck when sitting on a target, thats why the warrior "lacks" some mobility. If used correctly a well timed charge + imp hamstring will make a big differense. I dont know how skilled you are, or at which rating you are playing at, so I can't say that this is a useful tip for you, but talk to players playing different classes, ask them what they are afraid of when meeting a warrior. Maybe they will tell you something you havent really thought of, or maybe just give you some tips on how to make their "life" a little harder.

Yes, I have played rogue a long time. And if we play correctly we have alot of tools to counter almost everything that can happen in combat. But if we trinket something, and you have throwdown up. Or lets say we trinket blind from another rogue, and then gets switched on, we are really weak. Take us by suprise and we will be going down, or atleast get us to use all of our OH SHIT cooldowns. Wich means we either has to sit in stealth, waiting for our health to get back up (and watch our partner die) or simply trying to help our teammate as much as we can before we eventually die. Rogues is a class that needs to be played with caution, we need to predict what our enemies will be doing next. When duelling a warrior to take one example, I always try to disarm when either I know he is going to use throwdown, or if I he pops major cooldowns. And yes, I never lose to warriors 1v1, when I have all cooldowns ready. But as you said 1v1 isnt balanced, and never will be.

I know this post got a lot longer than I was going for, but I hope I made atleast a few points.

Take advantage of your spell reflect, talk to other players about what you can do to beat them. But if you want to play rogue instead, I totally get you, I really enjoy playing one. And I have alot of other 85's. My favourites : Retri Paladin, Rogue, Mage and Priest. For the record, I'm a PvP'er. Playing mostly 2v2 and 3v3.

- Alkzn

[Castozor]

You mean it's fun to not be frustrated when you pvp because you can always get away, can kill just about anything and because you normally play a class which has to actually work to be worth something? Who would have guessed.

[Eazy]

I have Warr and Rogue and I must... slightly agree with You. But I think it depends more of the play style than the Class.

[iamthedevil]

Rogue is around a 10.

Warrior is around a 5.

What i used to love about my warrior was the complications of playing well. Stance dancing, many abilities to use, macros galore... Over this expansion it all dwindled down, while the rogues abilities built up. It is quite sad how stripped down the class has become.

Simple is not fun to me.

[tinkabela]

Rogue is around a 10.

Warrior is around a 5.

What i used to love about my warrior was the complications of playing well. Stance dancing, many abilities to use, macros galore... Over this expansion it all dwindled down, while the rogues abilities built up. It is quite sad how stripped down the class has become.

Simple is not fun to me.

nicely summed up my post.

You mean it's fun to not be frustrated when you pvp because you can always get away, can kill just about anything and because you normally play a class which has to actually work to be worth something? Who would have guessed.

This guy missed my point entirely. I didn't say I was killing people on my rogue and roflstomping them, or it was all cakewalk, I simply stated I have an ubelievable array of tools at my disposal, compared to my warrior's meager arsenal.

[Tyrean]

Sounds like it is not necessarily the toolkit but rather the engagement that is dictating what you are finding fun.

When I play my warrior, it is rarely alone. I have support. I have someone snaring for me so I don't have to waste a GCD every 15 seconds on hamstring. (that's 10% of your GCD to apply a snare. Rogues, zero. Ferals, zero. DKs, mostly zero. Rets, lol, enhance, lol) I have someone to peel for me when I am in trouble. That is mainly playing 3s with a rogue or DK partner and a priest. In BGs we usually roll in groups of 5, which makes life much much easier.

Out in the field if I solo queue? Yeah, a rogue is 10 times better than a warrior. If I am in a random BG solo then I can either wreck face on my warrior or get kited to oblivion. Totally depends on if I am getting assisted or not and the sway of battle. If I am out in midfield alone and come across a 1v1 or 1v2 then it is really, really hard and cooldown dependent on my warrior. Rogue? I fear no 1v2. In a large scale battle I can turn the tides by locking out a healer for the entire battle.

On my warrior I am usually top damage, top KBs in a bg. On my rogue I am usually somewhere in the middle. I spend more time controlling on my rogue than flat out killing. I suppose what I am getting at is if you are only playing bgs and running mostly solo then yeah the rogue will seem awesome in comparison. However, I would take my warrior over my rogue if I played with a disc priest any day in a bg because warriors are a powerhouse in teams and weak solo. Rogues are a powerhouse in a different idea in teams (control) and strong solo.

Different engagement, different outcomes.

[tinkabela]

Sounds like it is not necessarily the toolkit but rather the engagement that is dictating what you are finding fun.

When I play my warrior, it is rarely alone. I have support. I have someone snaring for me so I don't have to waste a GCD every 15 seconds on hamstring. (that's 10% of your GCD to apply a snare. Rogues, zero. Ferals, zero. DKs, mostly zero. Rets, lol, enhance, lol) I have someone to peel for me when I am in trouble. That is mainly playing 3s with a rogue or DK partner and a priest. In BGs we usually roll in groups of 5, which makes life much much easier.

Out in the field if I solo queue? Yeah, a rogue is 10 times better than a warrior. If I am in a random BG solo then I can either wreck face on my warrior or get kited to oblivion. Totally depends on if I am getting assisted or not and the sway of battle. If I am out in midfield alone and come across a 1v1 or 1v2 then it is really, really hard and cooldown dependent on my warrior. Rogue? I fear no 1v2. In a large scale battle I can turn the tides by locking out a healer for the entire battle.

On my warrior I am usually top damage, top KBs in a bg. On my rogue I am usually somewhere in the middle. I spend more time controlling on my rogue than flat out killing. I suppose what I am getting at is if you are only playing bgs and running mostly solo then yeah the rogue will seem awesome in comparison. However, I would take my warrior over my rogue if I played with a disc priest any day in a bg because warriors are a powerhouse in teams and weak solo. Rogues are a powerhouse in a different idea in teams (control) and strong solo.

Different engagement, different outcomes.

would agree with this so far in that I've not done any max level BGs with my rogue yet (level 78), but yes I can completely roflstomp some BGs on my warrior- did AB this morning, AFK the 1st 5 minutes, then ended up 1 million damage above #2 player. but roflstomping isn't fun to me (it probably is to some people).

I agree that likely you will no top the charts as a rogue in damage (maybe in killing blows), but I feel you can probably turn the tide of the game much more than a warrior can, whether you are partnered with a healer or not.

[papastealth]

Try Prot PVP -- I got tired of my warrior as arms-- Prot definitely feels more fun -- even though your damage output is a bit low.

[tinkabela]

I hate prot pvp so much, even when we had vengeance. Anybody with half a brain can destroy us so easy as prot.

[Tyrean]

Oh yeah, the rogue toolkit is practically game breaking in random BGs. I cannot tell you how many times I have been in flag cap games and just wait for the EFC to break from the group and then own them in a smokebomb solo. Or how many times I am able to not kill a healer (it is difficult to kill a good healer solo if he has any help at all) but effectively keep him out of the game and let my team take everyone else down. Hell, on my rogue in AB I normally will go GM by myself and just harass whoever comes down there and keep them from capping the flag. I don't try to kill them, just delay until the other nodes are won/lost and people come to GM to help. Tide turner.

Warriors can turn tides with damage only. That is what a warrior's true utility is, damage. Put out lots of damage and make everyone go defensive or die. To counter that though, warriors are controllable. Which is why a warrior in group is rough, but solo is pretty easy to handle as just about any class. Rogue is just the opposite. The are highly self reliant. I actually think the worst thing that happened to rogue balance was Blizzard's stupid idea that everyone except mages and hunters needed some sort of self heal. It was like they gave DKs healing because DKs are squishy as hell and everyone complained and now everyone has some way to heal. Rogues without -6% damage and all that healing? Much more balanced I think. Druids without crazy bear healing, balanced. Rets without crazy off heals, better. Etc. Why Blizzard changed the model I don't really understand, but it has slowly eroded PvP in general.

[tinkabela]

haha yeah I agree with the heals.

Can't even recall how many times (hundreds) I've been stealthing through a BG only to find I randomly have 5 combo points because of HaT and pop a 5pt recup on me, or vanish at 1% hp and wait in stealth recupping my hp while immune because nobody can see me

[Brofl]

Usually when I read warriors rerolling posts, they're usually QQing about damage, but for once, the OP actually knows their shit.

And I agree 100%.

Since the beginning of WoW, even before Arena, Rogues have always been the strongest PvP melee class, because of their utility they could overcome any obstacle presented to them, whereas a warrior is built around getting OP gear, popping cooldowns, and just shitting on things, which is terrible design.

It's shallow that the warriors niche has always been putting out stupid high pressure, in the form of damage, and MS(however that is trivial nowadays), so it's just their stupid high damage, which they don't have anymore because it was retarded in S9, and rightfully nerfed, however they also nerfed things that were not even in need of nerfing(Spell Reflect). Because warriors are able to easily deal with casters, the one skill that gave warriors any credibility of skill, nerfed to near useless, and no statement about it. Fucking dumb.

I think rogues should be a model of how melee classes in PvP should operate, in that warriors should be getting more tools to deal with most situations presented to them without the retarded high damage. I think if Blizzard would experiment with shield swapping for Arms warriors, this could introduce a layer of depth to class, however it's probably too much work since they don't give a fuck about PvP and they'd rather turn warriors into hurpderp juggernauts every other season to maintain the illusion that warriors are balanced, when all it is is warriors fluctuating between OP then UP.

[tinkabela]

Usually when I read warriors rerolling posts, they're usually QQing about damage, but for once, the OP actually knows their shit.

And I agree 100%.

Since the beginning of WoW, even before Arena, Rogues have always been the strongest PvP melee class, because of their utility they could overcome any obstacle presented to them, whereas a warrior is built around getting OP gear, popping cooldowns, and just shitting on things, which is terrible design.

It's shallow that the warriors niche has always been putting out stupid high pressure, in the form of damage, and MS(however that is trivial nowadays), so it's just their stupid high damage, which they don't have anymore because it was retarded in S9, and rightfully nerfed, however they also nerfed things that were not even in need of nerfing(Spell Reflect). Because warriors are able to easily deal with casters, the one skill that gave warriors any credibility of skill, nerfed to near useless, and no statement about it. Fucking dumb.

I think rogues should be a model of how melee classes in PvP should operate, in that warriors should be getting more tools to deal with most situations presented to them without the retarded high damage. I think if Blizzard would experiment with shield swapping for Arms warriors, this could introduce a layer of depth to class, however it's probably too much work since they don't give a fuck about PvP and they'd rather turn warriors into hurpderp juggernauts every other season to maintain the illusion that warriors are balanced, when all it is is warriors fluctuating between OP then UP.

woudn't say I know my shit, but thanks

I definitely agree though, warriors should never have been based around high damage+MS, and that's where all the problems came from.
Can't give utility, they have MS
Can't give high damage, they have MS
S9 gave them high damage and MS, nerf them

The toolbox is just so small it's no fun.

Make the design interesting again, I dunno
maybe give shield slam a single-target knockback (although I think there are too many knockbacks in game already)
allow spell reflect to be cast on a friendly target - oh how much this would improve warrior viability in 3s!
allow taunts to pull all damage done by the target onto the warrior, allowing amazing peels but at the cost of your hp bar
give heroic throw a dispel mechanic?
buff spell reflect back to maybe 15 seconds
just a few options

[Shaderas]

Oh yeah, the rogue toolkit is practically game breaking in random BGs. I cannot tell you how many times I have been in flag cap games and just wait for the EFC to break from the group and then own them in a smokebomb solo. Or how many times I am able to not kill a healer (it is difficult to kill a good healer solo if he has any help at all) but effectively keep him out of the game and let my team take everyone else down. Hell, on my rogue in AB I normally will go GM by myself and just harass whoever comes down there and keep them from capping the flag. I don't try to kill them, just delay until the other nodes are won/lost and people come to GM to help. Tide turner.

Warriors can turn tides with damage only. That is what a warrior's true utility is, damage. Put out lots of damage and make everyone go defensive or die. To counter that though, warriors are controllable. Which is why a warrior in group is rough, but solo is pretty easy to handle as just about any class. Rogue is just the opposite. The are highly self reliant. I actually think the worst thing that happened to rogue balance was Blizzard's stupid idea that everyone except mages and hunters needed some sort of self heal. It was like they gave DKs healing because DKs are squishy as hell and everyone complained and now everyone has some way to heal. Rogues without -6% damage and all that healing? Much more balanced I think. Druids without crazy bear healing, balanced. Rets without crazy off heals, better. Etc. Why Blizzard changed the model I don't really understand, but it has slowly eroded PvP in general.

Hunters have a self heal, if you have a spirit beast, hehe.

Mages don't have self heal, but they do have damage absorbers on relatively short cooldowns.

Oh and about your Rogues being good in Bgs, I'd say most (not all) of the same things you said about them for Ferals

[tinkabela]

Hunters have a self heal, if you have a spirit beast, hehe.

Mages don't have self heal, but they do have damage absorbers on relatively short cooldowns.

Oh and about your Rogues being good in Bgs, I'd say most (not all) of the same things you said about them for Ferals

ferals very similar to rogues, but without vanish or CloS.

[Tyrean]

Yeah, ferals and rogues are pretty similar, especially if you are a NE. And I did not count spirit beast or evocation because they just aren't as spammable or whatever as every other classes' healing.

About taunt, one of the things that I thought was just bawls awesome about SWTOR pvp was the fact that the defensive classes actually could do defensive stuff in pvp. They way they work is they have "protection" shields they can put on players that direct 50% of damage to the defensive player as long as you are in range, and when you taunt an enemy player they do 50% less (may be 30% less) damage until they attack you. That would add some great utility and dynamic gameplay to arena I think if the classes with a taunt had the ability to "peel" damage with taunt temporarily. I think they would have to balance it by making all of the taunt mechanics have a higher cooldown baseline and the tank specs get it reduced. Would add some fun tools though.

Oh, and yeah warriors used to be focused around MS and damage. That was all they needed. They did not have to have near 100% uptime because as long as MS did not fall of they were doing their job to a point. Now you have to have near 100% uptime because a few seconds of peeling means a big heal incoming.

[Suff]

Armor of a warrior is also alot higher on a warrior, meaning you can withstand a good ammount of beating from melees. Yes, rogues have evasion, but yours is a passive "buff"

rogues have shitload of dodge, passive, for melee's

[Flaks]

Imo ferals and rets should have/never should get slows. They are able to move faster and have better mobility than any other specs in the game. Ret could do with dispel protection on HoF. Feral is more than mobile enough not to need any slows whatsoever.

Ret NEEDS to have heals. That their niche. They peel by making a target untrainable because of potent heals.

On warriors, our damage is absolutely gutted. With the amount of setup it requires, how many gcds are necessary to equal other class's damage output and how easily we are controlled, our burst is easily the WEAKEST in the game. Yes, you heard me right, warriors have the weakest burst in the game. We do in 3 global cooldowns what others do in 1. We need to keep up a 15 second buff that will be stopped in a single cc chain or even attempting to switch targets at times.

We have very weak peels in terms of slows and CC. Our damage has always been our form of peeling. Its too bad we can't really do shit for damage compared to literally any other class in the game. Enhance pushes more burst damage than warriors right now. And their burst is on a shorter cool down which is another problem with warriors.

We have amazing ways to get to a target. We have nearly no ways to stay on a target. And when other classes bring more potent peels on us, we're unable to even put a hamstring on a target after a charge. This I feel is the main issue with warriors and were it to be addressed in this expansion, it would markedly increase warrior representation in the 2400+ brackets. All we need is a very short snare/root immunity after charge and this problem would be fixed. We would have less problem keeping our sustained damage up. As it is right now, rets, dks (lol ridiculous) enhance all have better sustained and more reliable burst. Rogues and ferals have more reliable and stronger burst than anyone but about equal sustained as us. We need to be put in the former category and the latter two classes both are need of major nerfs.

Yes, the central issue with warriors is not having a very varied toolkit. But there are ways to fix warriors NOW. Not later. And we all know that even later, we won't be getting what we need.