How would you feel if 10 and 25 was replaced with 15 man?

[Dither9]

Something I have been thinking about recently is how WoW would be with 15 man raids. I think it would be the perfect number for raiding. If both 10 and 25 man ware replaced with this it would remove the 10/25 man argument altogether and make the game much more balanced for everyone.

How would you feel if 10 and 25 man were replaced with 15 player raids?

[mjk120185]

I'm DTF...

Doesn't add anything to convo. -Azshira

[Knownix]

I'd like to try it. They should add it as an option first. I feel like I'm always in the position where I have too many members online for the 10 man, and not nearly enough for the 25 man

[akris15]

10s are too small for a raid due to buff distrubtion, 25s apparently are too large to manage in today's game (25s are dying at a rapid pace but thats due to other factors).

Anyways in competitve raiding there can only be 1 raid size to be considered successful. The fact there is 2 raid sizes but they are treated equal is an abomination due to how the player base acts. This is why you see countless 10v25 debates. For the game to be fair (and succesful for the raiding community) the simple fact that 2 raid sizes exist but treated as 1 is sadly disappointing and I know several raiders who unsubscribed due to this reason alone.

15 would be a fair compensation between the 2 current sizes.

[Sildor]

25-man is dying, and at this point I don't see Blizzard salvaging it, since most of the playerbase is doing 10-man, at the same time 10-man is quite small, and very setup sensitive, and would lock some specs out from hardcore raiding completely. 15-man is a good compromise

[Archidamos]

Blizzard has stated that they will continue (i hope not as they did in cata, it was an abomination) to support "intimade" and "epic" aproach to raiding.
They also prompted us to the near future (those especialy interested in the "epic" part, to see what they have in store for us).

Now, if you go back in time, there were always 2 sizes or even more (if you count vanila's 10 UBRS as raids)

The difference in Vanila, and TBC was that difference sizes had different content. That could have been the best, if there were not the gating issues, preventing small guilds to upsize to larger raids.
The difference in Wrath was that larger raid was considered different by company, by having tighter tuned encounters and higher rewards.

Now? They attempted to keep content shared
Locks shared
Achivs shared
Rewards shared.

And that was the single most stupid thing they ever did since

Access for more casual raiders was reduced
Access for less skilled members was reduced
Increased 10 difficulty erased the old comfy Wrath 10 easy mode decreasing access even more.

And ofc, because of that but also for lesser and lower quality content made subs decline as they never did before.

One size would be the reasonable choice.
One size that wouldnt be 10 or 25 but smt in the middle in order to have better setup but also less logistics and less demanding for pcs instances.
Also with a size that wouldnt be 10 or 25 you wouldnt have any side of the raiding community being treated as winners or losers of that 10vs25 war.

I would realy like a single 15,18 or 20 size.
It would certainly do good to raiding.
But it will not happen .

Having that in mind, i believe that they should at last stop being cheap and solve MANY problems with a
6/12/24 setup.
With different achivs
With lfr utility to be able to raid both but with loot rights only in one kill.

That would revive the larger raids while keeping smaller raids unaffected.
It would also reduce the queues for RDF with 1-1-4 setup
It would keep the tradition, a raid to offer the option to include all classes, smt that 10s wont be able to do in MoP.
And most importantly it would make the transition for small to large more posible since 24 is direct multiplier of 12.
As it is today, a 2X10 guild needs people to do 25
and a 3X10 guild needs to drop people to do 25.

6-12-24 needs raid UI change.
But since blizzard wants to keep supporting small and large.
Since we have RDF and LFR
Since we have one extra class and 11 classes dont fit in 10 man group.

It is a change offering so many benefits that it worths the cost.

[Brett Skullcrack]

15 man is still too small to get me back to playing, but at least it's better than 10 mans that are the only option on most servers. A better solution would be to release completely different raid instances for 10 and 25 mans. But that would cost money and effort, so Blizzard will never go for it.

[kath01]

25man raiding only thing that keeps me playing the game at the moment, so no 15man i'd be gone.

[Titansruler]

Would love to see 15mans. Our guild used to be 25man raiding but since start of Cataclysm we couldn't afford running 25mans due to only ~20 people showing up every raid and split it into 2 teams of 10man which we're still using. Even though a lot already said they prefered 25man raiding, there's currently only 1 guild on our realm alliance side that raids 25man and is on "only" 1/8 Hc.

Running 15man would help a lot with the buff distribution and actually raiding with more than just 10 which just makes the instance feel empty.

[Daizeyyy]

I would be sad that I'd be forced to play with fewer of the amazing players in my guild.

[FrozenFlames]

15 man = 3 tanks, 4 healers and 8 dps?

Anyway, I'd like it I guess... No more QQ about 10 vs 25 man... 25 man and 10 man guild could both adept to it I guess...

[Amorise]

25man raiding only thing that keeps me playing the game at the moment, so no 15man i'd be gone.

You're also part of a superminority in that regard. Blizzard needs to consolidate the raid sizes in order to be able to bring some of the luster back into raiding. They have too many settings to balance and the 10vs25 split keeps them from making needed adjustments to either setting without fear of repercussions by the playerbase and a potential pendulum shift in what players raid.

10m is easily the most popular option among players, and not just for the easy way out that many 25m players seem to consider it. Many of the 25 > 10 conversions that happened were done in T11 which was significantly overtuned and more difficult on 10m outside of Al'akir. If the the vast majority of the playerbase seems to prefer 10m raiding, and let's face it, they almost always have and only did 25m for the obvious rewards, compromising for a 15m setting could give the best of both worlds while giving that small intimate setting. By focusing on the single setting, Blizzard would have more room to add content to the raid as it's time spent on tuning the content, they could fix loot issues such as the RNG and loot saturation issue that murders 10m, not have the legendary acquisition issues, etc etc. 10m gives the intimate raiding many want but is too buff and comp restrictive and is hard to balance accordingly. 15m would alleviate that without any drastic shifts.

The raiding game would only get better if Blizzard could focus their development time on only LFR, 15m, and 15m heroic instead of LFR, 10m, 10m heroic, 25m, 25m heroic.

[JoeyGrease]

I think it should be 15 and 25 man

[ComputerNerd]

Any increase would still penalise those struggling to do 10m regularly without pugging.
Though no doubt it would make balancing the difficulty easier.

[fateswarm]

The best is 17. People are fixated to random [and round] numbers. [The average of the 2 is around 17 to 18.]

But, This will alienate most players that already play 25 or 10.

Hell, it would alienate me that plays 10 because it would need massive recruitment (for our scale).


But, it is true that the game felt for a long time:

"25? It looks like 5-7 players are slacking and nobody knows who they are"

"10? We are extremely few. It doesn't feel as epic as in big raids and nobody can slack, a single mistake is screwing it. A single offliner is no raid."

[Ashvael]

I'd likely quit raiding if forced to downsize. I like 10man but it can't (IN MY OPINION) keep up with the feeling of 25m competitive raiding.

[Vektorix]

I expect Blizzard to standardize on 10m either with Mists of Panderia or "soon" since 25m other than LFR has died in most cases. If they are to maintain two raid sizes, I would expect it to be 5m/10m, no larger.

[DarkPhoenix]

Fairly certain there was a blue post a while back saying 15 mans would be by far the easiest raid number to balance from a design stand point and the only reason they hadnt added it was the pure workload required to implement something like that.

Its something ive wanted for a long while, especially in a guild when our second group is constantly left high and dry by their teammates and having to pug. Ideally Id prefer 10, 15 and 25 man raids but thats not exactly feasible so 10m would be the obvious size to make way, however there would then be complaints from close knit raiding groups I guess.

---------- Post added 2012-02-15 at 02:43 PM ----------

15 man = 3 tanks, 4 healers and 8 dps?

Anyway, I'd like it I guess... No more QQ about 10 vs 25 man... 25 man and 10 man guild could both adept to it I guess...

2 Tanks, 3 healers (4 for progression) and 9-10 dps sounds right to me.

[Wellaimed]

Now, if you go back in time, there were always 2 sizes or even more (if you count vanila's 10 UBRS as raids)

I seem to remember that the orignal UBRS was a 15 man group zone......

[Fade to October]

I have raided 40, 25, 20, and 10 mans; out of all of them I favor 25 and 10 the best. I cannot choose because both are fun to me; sometimes I feel 10 is easier or 25 is. In 25s I feel there is more room for error (more resses also lol) and in 10 there is more leeway because the mobs have less hp, etc. 15, would be right in the middle and I would be pleased with it.