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  1. #1

    Shaman mop talent tree

    I have been away from wow for a long time and hope to come back for MOP as a shaman, but I just can't help thinking that the shaman talent tree could be a lot more fun and interresting. I know it's still too early to judge the state of the talents thus far, but that's why they release it beforehand, so people can give their opinions and constructive feedback. My problem is with the shaman talent tree. The tier 6 to be specific. So our choices come to either:

    1. relocate active totems
    2. decrease cd on totems relative to when they were killed
    3. place more than one element except fire




    I suggest replacing these semi-useless talents with 3 i think would serve and give shamans better choices:
    Totemic spirit of Den Mother
    1. (Your totems can no longer be killed) Your totems gain the protection of the spirit of the Den Mother, and can no longer be destroyed.
    If that is too OP then, The Den Mother watches over your totems as one of her own, any threat to your totem will call forth her spirit to fend off enemies, her attacks have a chance to stun

    Image of Farseer Nobundo
    2. (Totems no longer trigger a GCD) You see through the eyes of Farseer Nobundo, allowing the use of all totems not affected by a Global Cooldown.

    Drek'Thar's Sacrifice
    3.( Reset all cooldowns on all totems) You feel one with the soul of Drek'Thar, his sacrifice clears the remainig colldown on all your totems.

    What do you guys think? these are way more fun and interesting to me then what we currently have.

  2. #2
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Well, when the MoP talent trees were initially previewed, it was quite obvious that they hadn't touched Shaman at all, really.

    I think there was a blue post a little while back stating that basically everything on all the trees are essentially way out of date and nearly irrelevant.
    The goal was to get something up and going by the time Friends & Family Alpha came out, which is supposedly soon.


    Now as for your ideas:
    - First one: My one problem with this is just that totems shouldn't have 5 hp anyway. It should be a scaling thing base. Kind of like how MTT is.
    - Second one: Wouldn't be opposed to this, but it almost seems a little weak for a peak lvl 90 talent.
    - Third one: This could definitely be cool and potentially really useful/powerful. I could definitely see something like this working very well.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    Well, when the MoP talent trees were initially previewed, it was quite obvious that they hadn't touched Shaman at all, really.

    I think there was a blue post a little while back stating that basically everything on all the trees are essentially way out of date and nearly irrelevant.
    The goal was to get something up and going by the time Friends & Family Alpha came out, which is supposedly soon.
    Wait, are you saying these talents are just placeholders / to be changed?
    I know MoP isn't even on alpha and they can be changed, but I don't remember reading anything stating Shaman talents are not touched and will be changed for sure.

    I couldn't stop my tears for days when I've seen our talents for the first time.
    It's not only the 6th tier, I absolutely hated each one of them. They are all terribly boring and none of them feels OP. (devs stated they want talents to feel a little bit OP)

    Particularly the G.Wolf talent almost made me cry. It means we have to talent it to make it work like today's GW and give up snare / silence immunity.

    They just feel terrible, compared to Warlock - Warrior - Rogue - Hunter - Mage - DK trees.

    Tier 1: Pick the utility you already have now. Boring except Repulsion Totem. On the second thought, still boring.
    Tier 2: We already have Guardian, boring. Reworked Stoneclaw, it still looks like a joke. Finally a terrible version of Paladin bubble. Same penalty with no immunity. Not original, not fun, boring.
    Tier 3: Worst tier ever. Pick the wolf not to lose your current utility. AoE HoF, boring and tied to a totem which can be destroyed with a single hit. Immunity, same.
    Tier 4: Other hybrid DPS dudes don't suffer this, but we do. This is a pure healing tier which gives no advantage to two shaman specs. Ancestral Guidance looks fun, other two are incredibly boring. You'll hate this tier as well if you are a DPS shaman.
    Tier 5: Elemental Mastery, oh that sounds familiar somehow. NS, hello! And legendary staff proc. How creative. Enhancement shamans will love this tier. Oh wait, they won't. Plus, talents are still boring.
    Tier 6: Worst tier 6 ever. Drop Wrath of Air and Windfury at the same time, wow. Or have your 3 minute cooldown reduced by 10 seconds, and your totem destroyed. Or, have your totems near you, which fits 6th tier very well.

    Have I mentioned you that MoP shaman talents are boring? Yeah, they are.

    I hope not even single one of them will make it to live. Yes I jelly warlocks and their awesome talents. There are thousands of new possibilities and different game styles for them via talents. Unfortunantly I will be using talents to restore my current utilities.

    Sorry if the post is too depressing for you, not trolling or anything. I just feel very bad looking at Shaman talents and others.

  4. #4
    Talking of the current Tier 6 Talents, I feel like actually the reset cooldown based on how much duration the totem had left is way overpowered if you combine it with totems we have now. May seem a bit meh, but I am talking Grounding Totem. It has a 25 second cooldown, but a 45 second duration. This means that essentially in a PvP enviroment we could cast nothing but Wind Shear and Grounding Totem and no spell would ever get through.

    Because of this, I feel our current totems are going to get a massive overhaul, not just the buff totems becoming Auras. Due to this, I think we can't judge our 'current' MoP talents as good or bad, because they could be down right awesome.

    In reply to the above poster:

    1 - You didnt have any of this Utility in PvE, and Elemental never had shock root, Enhance never had Earthbind Root, Resto Shaman never had either

    2 - Again, Natures Gaurdian was never available to other 2 specs, Bulwark Totem looks really good for both PvE and PvP, and Astral Shift gives us Utility we have been crying out for. Hate Ultraxion cos you get dropped for someone who can Soak Hour of Twilight? Yey!

    3 - I actually love the idea of this tree. In PvP it would depend completely on your comp. Enhance Shaman/Warrior or Resto with warrior/DK or something? Boom Windwalk Totem + Stoneclaw Totem (using tier 6 talent) and blow someone up. Elemental + Arcane Mage? Boom Tranquil Mind+Stoneclaw. Other comp? Ghost Wolf. As for PvE, AoE slow on the raid inside some heavy hurting damage patch. Windwalk Totem.

    4 - In rediculously excited about this tier. I want Healing Tide Totem so bad. Divine Hymn ftw that doesn't have to be channeled ftw? DPS with healing utility is why I chose Elemental Shaman. Fortifying Waters seems good to. Multiple Shaman stacking incoming much? (unless the buff doesn't stack....). Not so sure about usefulness of the Ancestral Guidance though

    5 - I agree kind of a boring tier. It will be mathed out and you will never switch. If the best isnt Elemental Mastery you might switch too it for some Burst phase, but other than that, its gonna be a pick and forget tier.

    6 - I explained my interest in Totemic Restoration already, but 'Totem Trap Thrower' will be great with things like Windwalk Totem in PvP, Repulsion Totem, Earthbind Totem with Root and Magma Totem. The multiple totems at once has great sinergy with the two tier 3 talents as well.
    Last edited by Undefetter; 2012-02-14 at 08:08 PM.


  5. #5
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    Wait, are you saying these talents are just placeholders / to be changed?
    I know MoP isn't even on alpha and they can be changed, but I don't remember reading anything stating Shaman talents are not touched and will be changed for sure.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    The intent of the talent calculator was to give players something to fool around with. We wanted everyone to get a feel for the idea we're going for in Mists so that it wouldn't sound as crazy or shocking when seen on "paper."

    We've responded many times about talent calculator feedback, even pointing out we're not going to be able to discuss things point by point with players because the systems are rapidly changing while in development. The calculator itself is quite out of date.

    So you're right. I took the time to respond to this thread when I could've responded elsewhere. But what did I say? I basically said things are looking awesome so far and I can't wait to be able to share more information.

    Would you feel better if I found a thesis from you about the problems you have with the out-of-date Mists talent calculator for rogues, only to say, "A lot of the details you're discussing aren't fully fleshed out yet, so we'll talk again when we have updated Mists class info to provide"? Even if you think the answer to that is "yes," I wouldn't be surprised if you then came back here in two weeks to tell me how many amazing threads there are out there about the "REAL" issues that are going completely ignored. It's a neverending cycle and I'm not interesting in always looking for the squeakiest wheels to grease on the forums.

    The only inevitability in community management I've found is that, whenever we post ANYWHERE on the forums, someone will be sure to tell us where we should be posting, and which part of the community is really being ignored.
    (Source)

    As for 'not being touched', I was referring to things they said they were going to do (like Instant Ghostwolf) and never did. Also the fact that there was no preview of the level 87 ability (as many other classes had).

    Also, Zarhym mentioned something Here.
    Last edited by Radux; 2012-02-14 at 08:10 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    - Third one: This could definitely be cool and potentially really useful/powerful. I could definitely see something like this working very well.
    From a Enhancement perspective this sucks donkeyballs though

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Radux View Post
    Well, when the MoP talent trees were initially previewed, it was quite obvious that they hadn't touched Shaman at all, really.

    I think there was a blue post a little while back stating that basically everything on all the trees are essentially way out of date and nearly irrelevant.
    The goal was to get something up and going by the time Friends & Family Alpha came out, which is supposedly soon.


    Now as for your ideas:
    - First one: My one problem with this is just that totems shouldn't have 5 hp anyway. It should be a scaling thing base. Kind of like how MTT is.
    - Second one: Wouldn't be opposed to this, but it almost seems a little weak for a peak lvl 90 talent.
    - Third one: This could definitely be cool and potentially really useful/powerful. I could definitely see something like this working very well.
    totally in agreement here.

    i am disappointed that it seems as though they haven't even touched shaman

    my favorite class, with ele being my spec, i really feel as though we are still centered around a role that they dont have any more. i would very much like to feel more... current

  8. #8
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tides View Post
    From a Enhancement perspective this sucks donkeyballs though
    Yeah. Given I was thinking more in line of Resto. And Elemental to a lesser extent.

    However, there are still nice utility totems that could make this awesome in PvP/PvE -- 2 Tremor/Grounding/Healing Tide Totem (if you spec it and it makes the cut). Or even double duration EE for a minor increase in dps.

    Just because it doesn't lead to a direct increase of dps doesn't mean it doesn't have potential. I think that was the point of these talents. Choosing utility/CC/DPS/whatever per tier.

    Again, I want to put my stance out there: I'm not making a judgment until I see legit progress. I've yet to see anything major yet, so I'm not going to be too critical yet.
    Last edited by Radux; 2012-02-14 at 08:17 PM.

  9. #9
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    The 6th tier of talents only looks "meh" based on current totems, and we haven't seen ANY changes for spell lists in MoP yet. We have not seen our 86-90 spells yet, or any other changes to the abilities. Not to mention it's quite possible those talents have been changed a great deal since we got that leaked version. And really, two of the three are things the Shaman community has been clamoring for; a totem thrower and a response to CDs that can get killed and lose uptime. They're there BECAUSE they're listening to what we're asking for, not because they aren't.

    And other than that tier, the other 5 tiers are all pretty darn solid. The "throughput" tier needs some clarification to work with Enhancement attacks as well as spells, but if it does, it's just fine.

    In short, wait till they update it with even an alpha, let alone a beta, build, because what we saw at Blizzcon was pre-alpha and not even remotely begun to be tweaked for balance.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    Tier 3: Worst tier ever. Pick the wolf not to lose your current utility. AoE HoF, boring and tied to a totem which can be destroyed with a single hit. Immunity, same.
    I won't go into your arguments on the other tree tiers but GHOST WOLF WILL BE INSTANT BY BASIC AND WON'T LOSE ANYTHING OF IT'S EFFECT IMPROVED GHOSTWOLF IS AN ADDITION TO THE CURRENT EFFECT.

    Sorry for Caps but this Talent confused many shamans.

    Current GW: Not dropping below normal MS,
    With IGW: Similiar to a perma Master's call during GW, it ignores those snare effects, but not removes them.

    On topic:

    I'm more interested in the totem mechanic change, our supposed "core mechanic".

    When i heard "Hey we rework the totem system" i was happy, but reworking the system by removing buff totems is no real re work.

    GC said during Wotlk "If the Totem mechanic doesn't appeal your playstyle this is probably the wrong class for you" (Not the exact quote but the sense)

    But what totem mechanic does exist for PvE? there's no gain from the mechanic only personal loss because of support *cough* Vanilla / Bc Shaman.

    Totems are a far too outdated mechanic from Classic, they need to redo this system completly.
    If those Buff totems are removed Dps Shaman will use a fire totem and resto will use a water totem, that's no core mechanic of a class, that's a nice addition to a system similiar to water / lightning shield.

    Skills and Abilities should finally reflect that totems are mechanic of this class, not a side kick, this applies for PvP but in PvE totems can become almost(almost because of exception of Fire Dps and Water Resto) obsolete.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2012-02-14 at 08:45 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  11. #11
    Moderator Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    When i heard "Hey we rework the totem system" i was happy, but reworking the system by removing buff totems is no real re work.

    GC said during Wotlk "If the Totem mechanic doesn't appeal your playstyle this is probably the wrong class for you" (Not the exact quote but the sense)

    But what totem mechanic does exist for PvE? there's no gain from the mechanic only personal loss because of support *cough* Vanilla / Bc Shaman.
    This is why people need to stop QQing until we see some actual ready-for-launch spell and ability changes and additions.

    The only totems that are being removed are the passive buff totems. The intent is that we will not always have 4 totems down, but that dropping a totem will "matter" rather than just being a Call you hit every 5 minutes, which is what they currently are in PvE. PvE totem use should, if they stay true to their comments, become much more like PvP use currently is, where you're swapping totems in and out for utility and such as needed. One of the biggest constraints on totem use in PvE ARE those buffs; if I'm the guy dropping Strength of Earth for my raid, I have to decide if it's worth keeping that up, or dropping Tremor or Earthbind for utility purposes and then re-casting the buff totem. Without buff totems, and having those buffs turned into aura effects (which they've confirmed is the plan), that choice isn't a choice any more; you're free to use the utility whenever and wherever it's useful.


    The changes, even with the reduced number of totems, will only improve our ability to use utility totems without sacrificing buffs. And if they do rework the totem system to provide us more options, it'll be many times better than the current system.

  12. #12
    Not going to quote one by one but;

    - I'm not saying our talents suck or are underpowered. I don't even know if they are balanced or any good, none of us knows it. As Endus said, we know nothing about MoP Shamans yet. I'm just saying that, they feel terribly boring and offer too little new. Looking at the current talents, I really don't see much choices or new exciting mechanics to make our gameplay more interesting. Most of the talents are currently in the game somehow and judging by general shaman gameplay, these talents won't be adding anything exciting. It's just a better Stoneclaw, or Nature's Guardian for Enhancement. We had NG before, just not for Enhancement and Elemental. It's not that exciting.

    - On the other hand, I don't really want another Unleash Weapon failure. Before Cataclysm, I was excited by UW, seemed like a new part of rotation for any Shaman. It was Paladin Judgement for Shaman in a different way, giving us small buffs to whatever we do. However it failed horribly for most of us, sadly.

    - I really like totems, but in response to what GC said, totems will appeal to noone if they are not fun and holding the class back instead of giving us a mechanic and advantages. If we don't like totems, that's not because we aren't meant to be playing Shamans, it's because totems are not good enough.

    - Checking on other class talents, I see a lot of new exciting mechanics. I only don't get excited while looking at our talents, but maybe it's just me. Our talents are more than perfect.

    - Totem thrower, please god no. I want to plant totems to range too but not with Trap Launcher mechanics. It's not easy to use and it's boring. Requires +1 GCD. Even most of the hunters don't like Trap Launcher. There should be a better way.

    - Kralljin, what's the point of removing snares if we already ignore them on ghost wolf? I'm a bit confused here. It sounds like getting hit by a pyroblast while being immune to fire.

    - Endus, seriously, how other 5 tiers are pretty darn solid? I have never seen you disagreeing with Blizzard, but this time I just can't get it. Do you really think we really have kickass talents now?

  13. #13
    Mechagnome Cai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    In short, wait till they update it with even an alpha, let alone a beta, build, because what we saw at Blizzcon was pre-alpha and not even remotely begun to be tweaked for balance.
    I was going to say this...

    Anyways, I agree T6 talents don't look OP but they will most likely fall into place once we see some changes with Shaman.

    I am more torn between T5 choice myself, Ele Mastery or Echo of Ele. I know the spell haste isn't the best, for Enhance, but 15% more fire, frost, nature is real nice. At first I thought it could give Enh a reason to use LvB but looks like its and Ele only spell now.

    On the other hand Echo of Ele provides a chance to copy a spell effect, just imagine gaining EoE and getting 2 LL (even though second one wouldn't have any Searing Flame stack to consume). This is just me dreaming but getting EoE and casting Feral Spirit, 4 wolves for the price of 2.

    I do like most of the talents, except T6, but I am waiting for more info on Shaman in MoP before i jump to any major conclusions.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Cai View Post
    This is just me dreaming but getting EoE and casting Feral Spirit, 4 wolves for the price of 2.
    Rofl, I would pay to see that.
    Sadly, the tooltip says "damaging or healing spells". Feral Spirit is just a summon, not a damaging attack.
    Since it says "spells" I even wonder if that works with melee attacks like Lava Lash.

  15. #15
    Mechagnome Cai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    Rofl, I would pay to see that.
    Sadly, the tooltip says "damaging or healing spells". Feral Spirit is just a summon, not a damaging attack.
    Since it says "spells" I even wonder if that works with melee attacks like Lava Lash.
    It's still considered a spell because of the use of Mana to use it. So technically it would be considered a Melee Spell xD

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cai View Post
    It's still considered a spell because of the use of Mana to use it. So technically it would be considered a Melee Spell xD
    Its not a damaging spell though. The damage comes from the melee hits of the wolves, which are not your spells. Its the equivilant of a damage trinket proccing when a Hunter calls their pet or a Warlock summons a pet. it doesn't happen.

    Sorry to burst your bubble.


  17. #17
    Mechagnome Cai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Its not a damaging spell though. The damage comes from the melee hits of the wolves, which are not your spells. Its the equivilant of a damage trinket proccing when a Hunter calls their pet or a Warlock summons a pet. it doesn't happen.

    Sorry to burst your bubble.
    Well I know Feral Spirit wouldn't work I was just saying it was me just dreaming.. and my reply to him was about LL not Feral Spirit. Sry if I didnt make it a lil more clear.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    - Kralljin, what's the point of removing snares if we already ignore them on ghost wolf? I'm a bit confused here. It sounds like getting hit by a pyroblast while being immune to fire.
    I'll explain:

    The normal Movementspeed is 100% in this example.

    Current Ghostwolf:

    You run around as ghostwolf at 130% movementspeed total.

    You are snared by 50%, shift into ghostwolf and you are still running at 100%, because your actual MS would go under 100%.

    With improved Ghostwolf:

    You get snared by 50%, because of Improved Ghostwolf you still run around at 130% movementspeed total as long as you stay in Ghostwolf.

    The Current Ghostwolf only reduces the effectiveness of Snare effects, while the Improved Ghostwolf grants the ability to ignore those effects completly (You can call it Snare Immunity like HoF but the mechanics are not 100% the same).

    In your example that would mean:

    The current Ghostwolf reduces the damage you take from Pyro Blast.
    The Improved Ghostwolf makes you immune against Fire at all.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2012-02-14 at 09:48 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    With improved Ghostwolf:

    You get snared by 50%, because of Improved Ghostwolf you still run around at 130% movementspeed total as long as you stay in Ghostwolf.
    Thank you sir!

    So, I get 30% movespeed when I'm snared, but mages get double polymorph, warlocks get %10 health cost instant fear or hunters get transmorph trap. (tiers are irrelevant, but I can give relevant examples too) How exciting!

    See what I'm talking about?

  20. #20
    Cookie Monster Radux's Avatar
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    ... Except what you just listed was a list of CC's.

    MoP Talent Tier 3 is about removing/making immune to stuff -- movement reduction or interrupts/silence (a 'freedom' tier if you will)

    You can't make that comparison at all.
    Last edited by Radux; 2012-02-14 at 10:36 PM.

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