No full dual-spec (advanced class dual spec) in the near future - thoughts?

[Rhonen]

Kinda wishing BW had just made 8 classes to end the incessant requests for multi-AC specs. I honestly don't get how this discussion has gone on this long. You made a choice...****ing live with it.

I'm all for dual-specs within your class, but it's a game of choices, and those choices should mother****ing mean something.

[Tehfred]

But nobody actually lists a single bad thing that would come from it.

I can list a few.

1) End-game consequences. IF they allow it, it had better be removed at max level. The gearing system is already bad enough without having guilds forcing me to collect three sets of gear (speaking as an Inquisitor). If they were to vastly improve the modification system, I could possibly see how it could work. But right now, no.

2) To expand on the gear issue, it's bad enough that there's already loot whoring for companions. If inq/cons are pigeonholed into three roles, you'll have Sorcerers rolling on Shields, lightsaber staves, etc. You'll have Mercenaries rolling on tank gear. It'd essentially be an all-out free-for-all with gear. How would you feel if your healer said, "Oh, you did X hardmode flashpoint 20 times for something? Too bad, I'm considering going Assassin tank. Yoink."

3) Promotes laziness. I know you disagree with laziness existing in a video game, but it does. Teaching players that it's okay to circumvent decisions really takes away from their character feeling "special". Making those players retain a decision forces them to research their class moreso than they would have, and many times leads to better understanding.

4) Money. If someone gets 20 levels down the road and realize "hey this class isn't for me," it's in BW's best interest to make them reroll. Otherwise, what's the point of having alts if there are characters that can fulfill all three roles of the Holy Trinity? It makes no sense from a business model to allow class changes like that.

[shimerra]

Utter nonsense. It is a video game, a hobby, not a job. You can't be "lazy" in a hobby because it is what you do for fun. If you find grinding fun, knock yourself out but not everyone agrees. Mmo players just love the idea that mmos should be a time sink, that if you're not putting the long hours to it, then you're doing it wrong. It's an excuse, not a downside.

There's a lot of convenience things that could be added. Why should I have to level at all? Just give me all my skills and remove levels. I'm tired of Inquis, give me a button so I can play BH. Why should I have to kill bosses for loot, make an iphone app so I can requisition gear for my character from my phone.

Choices are what make these types of games interesting, choices and having goals to accomplish. AC respecing as convenient as it may be removes one of the single most important player choices you make, the class you play. Simply extend the argument to WoW. If you didn't like your mage in WoW you wouldn't be clamoring that Blizzard should give you a free druid would you?

[Dannyl]

1) End-game consequences. IF they allow it, it had better be removed at max level. The gearing system is already bad enough without having guilds forcing me to collect three sets of gear (speaking as an Inquisitor). If they were to vastly improve the modification system, I could possibly see how it could work. But right now, no.

2) To expand on the gear issue, it's bad enough that there's already loot whoring for companions. If inq/cons are pigeonholed into three roles, you'll have Sorcerers rolling on Shields, lightsaber staves, etc. You'll have Mercenaries rolling on tank gear. It'd essentially be an all-out free-for-all with gear. How would you feel if your healer said, "Oh, you did X hardmode flashpoint 20 times for something? Too bad, I'm considering going Assassin tank. Yoink."

I'm going to combine these two because really, they are the same item, which is about gear. It is simple to solve though because I never (I'll repeat this again) said the choice should be something you can do anytime and anywhere. The point is simply to give players the time to play a class, and if comes to it, once during that process, change their AC to something they might enjoy more. It has nothing to do with end game since it happens prior to the point where gear even begins to matter.

3) Promotes laziness. I know you disagree with laziness existing in a video game, but it does. Teaching players that it's okay to circumvent decisions really takes away from their character feeling "special". Making those players retain a decision forces them to research their class moreso than they would have, and many times leads to better understanding.

You're right, I don't agree with it. Furthermore, if anything, the decision to change into AC that you actually like will only make the character more special for you. At least I can't see why I'd feel a character is "special" if I don't even enjoy playing it much. No amount of research will make you like the mechanics of your class, not to mention most post-game research is useless anyway. Not only do you actually figure most of it out just by playing the game, which I'd think is what players prefer to be doing instead of browsing through google for several hours, but most of it will not even be very helpful until you're max- or high level since you don't even get half of your abilities until that point. Reading about how I should be using this or that ability that I won't even get up until 30-40 levels ahead is time wasted.

4) Money. If someone gets 20 levels down the road and realize "hey this class isn't for me," it's in BW's best interest to make them reroll. Otherwise, what's the point of having alts if there are characters that can fulfill all three roles of the Holy Trinity? It makes no sense from a business model to allow class changes like that.

This is maybe the only one that I can actually agree with; keeping players playing equals more money but then again I'm not a BW partner so I don't really care about their bottom line. I've always been an advocate of consumer experience and I don't think a good product has to "trick" people into using it, by coming up with ways to prolong their time with the product. A good game will keep people playing it without such measures.

There's a lot of convenience things that could be added. Why should I have to level at all? Just give me all my skills and remove levels. I'm tired of Inquis, give me a button so I can play BH. Why should I have to kill bosses for loot, make an iphone app so I can requisition gear for my character from my phone.

I'm sorry but we're been over this; just because a "convenience feature" (as you put it) is added to the game, doesn't mean you have to go overboard. Restraint is easy enough to manage and what I proposed does not remove player choice or flavor from it. If anything, like I recapped for Tehfred, it enhances it because this is about players who, made the wrong choice at level 10 and who are by 20-30 not enjoying it, could switch their AC to something they might like more. So if anything, it has the possibility of increasing the player experience, not decreasing it and on top of everything it comes with close to no downsides to the other players.

[Lathais]

I'm going to combine these two because really, they are the same item, which is about gear. It is simple to solve though because I never (I'll repeat this again) said the choice should be something you can do anytime and anywhere. The point is simply to give players the time to play a class, and if comes to it, once during that process, change their AC to something they might enjoy more. It has nothing to do with end game since it happens prior to the point where gear even begins to matter.


You're right, I don't agree with it. Furthermore, if anything, the decision to change into AC that you actually like will only make the character more special for you. At least I can't see why I'd feel a character is "special" if I don't even enjoy playing it much. No amount of research will make you like the mechanics of your class, not to mention most post-game research is useless anyway. Not only do you actually figure most of it out just by playing the game, which I'd think is what players prefer to be doing instead of browsing through google for several hours, but most of it will not even be very helpful until you're max- or high level since you don't even get half of your abilities until that point. Reading about how I should be using this or that ability that I won't even get up until 30-40 levels ahead is time wasted.


This is maybe the only one that I can actually agree with; keeping players playing equals more money but then again I'm not a BW partner so I don't really care about their bottom line. I've always been an advocate of consumer experience and I don't think a good product has to "trick" people into using it, by coming up with ways to prolong their time with the product. A good game will keep people playing it without such measures.


I'm sorry but we're been over this; just because a "convenience feature" (as you put it) is added to the game, doesn't mean you have to go overboard. Restraint is easy enough to manage and what I proposed does not remove player choice or flavor from it. If anything, like I recapped for Tehfred, it enhances it because this is about players who, made the wrong choice at level 10 and who are by 20-30 not enjoying it, could switch their AC to something they might like more. So if anything, it has the possibility of increasing the player experience, not decreasing it and on top of everything it comes with close to no downsides to the other players.

You're right, if they only allowed one change before level 50 then gear would not be an issue. Still, if you don't know that you like melee or ranged or tanking or healing, no amount of switching will help you. You really need to play all for a bit to get a feel for all of them. One switch won't help.

You can be lazy with a hobby. Despite what you say. Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean there is not a right and a wrong way to do it. What if my hobby is hunting? Too lazy to clean my gun after hunting trips? Gun will eventually malfunction, possibly injuring myself or others, will have to spend time saving money to buy a new gun. I say again to you, if research isn't the answer, and you need to play it to know, then you should probably level one of each to 30-40ish anyway. Again if you don't know what you like in these games, whose to say you like what you switch to? Maybe you want to switch back afterwards. Sorry, you can't by your own rules.

For me I don't care about the money. They can make more all they want. What does matter though is that I don't run out of stuff to do. They need money for that so they can keep developing stuff. Also, if I have to level another guy then I am not running out of stuff to do. Besides, I'm gonna level one of each anyway to see the story.

You do not have to go overboard with convenience features, but once you open the flood gate people start expecting things like it. Even if BW holds their ground, the next game will go, hmm, making things easier and making choices matter less worked for them, let's give it a go. 10-20 years down the line, all MMOs are just handing you things. I know that's a bit of an extreme view but it is true. Just look at the MMO industry today compared to pre-WoW. EQ things were hard, took a lot of time, and if you made a mistake and lost something it could take weeks just to get your gear back to go get what you wanted back. Hell, just dieing could result in a several hour corpse run. You can say well people don't enjoy that all you want, fact remains people STILL play to this day.

[Tehfred]

You can be lazy with a hobby. Despite what you say. Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean there is not a right and a wrong way to do it. What if my hobby is hunting? Too lazy to clean my gun after hunting trips? Gun will eventually malfunction, possibly injuring myself or others, will have to spend time saving money to buy a new gun. I say again to you, if research isn't the answer, and you need to play it to know, then you should probably level one of each to 30-40ish anyway. Again if you don't know what you like in these games, whose to say you like what you switch to? Maybe you want to switch back afterwards. Sorry, you can't by your own rules.

Couldn't have said this better myself. Too many people want the market to cater to them, and it's a sign of the abysmal state the video game industry is in that they actually end up doing that. It's a generation of JG Wentworth commercials. "It's mine and I want it now." Put in the effort to figure out what class you like the best, or don't play at all.

[Dannyl]

You're right, if they only allowed one change before level 50 then gear would not be an issue. Still, if you don't know that you like melee or ranged or tanking or healing, no amount of switching will help you. You really need to play all for a bit to get a feel for all of them. One switch won't help.

Naturally, I never said it was a bulletproof idea; there is no guarantees that the player will like the second AC either, in which case (s)he will have to reroll regardless. The important difference is that a player can test both ACs with one roll instead of two. That's a pretty big deal imo.

You can be lazy with a hobby. Despite what you say. Just because it's a hobby doesn't mean there is not a right and a wrong way to do it. What if my hobby is hunting? Too lazy to clean my gun after hunting trips? Gun will eventually malfunction, possibly injuring myself or others, will have to spend time saving money to buy a new gun. I say again to you, if research isn't the answer, and you need to play it to know, then you should probably level one of each to 30-40ish anyway. Again if you don't know what you like in these games, whose to say you like what you switch to? Maybe you want to switch back afterwards. Sorry, you can't by your own rules.

Think this is one of those true apples and oranges comparisons. Video games are not guns. They do not pose physical risks to you or people around you. A hobby like firearms is obviously something you have to learn from the ground up, beginning from safety, parts of the weapon, and slowly move into actually holding one, so forth and so on. I know in the army, we went by, I think at least 1-2 weeks without even actually getting touch a gun. We learned the proper way to carry one, hold one, move, clean and disarm one before ever even going to the shooting range. With such items, you have to take precautions.

Video games are much more benign however. In fact, they are the complete opposite, they are designed so that you can pick it up as you go. You don't have to read manuals, safety regulations, and all that nonsense to play and enjoy the game. The amount of time you spend with it, is up to the player. So no, you really cannot be lazy with a game. That kind of concept comes from a world of competitive raiding, which puts a lot of pressure and emphasis on being prepared and performance. This subject is nowhere near it. So I'll say it again, no, you really cannot be lazy with a video game hobby.

You do not have to go overboard with convenience features, but once you open the flood gate people start expecting things like it. Even if BW holds their ground, the next game will go, hmm, making things easier and making choices matter less worked for them, let's give it a go. 10-20 years down the line, all MMOs are just handing you things. I know that's a bit of an extreme view but it is true. Just look at the MMO industry today compared to pre-WoW. EQ things were hard, took a lot of time, and if you made a mistake and lost something it could take weeks just to get your gear back to go get what you wanted back. Hell, just dieing could result in a several hour corpse run. You can say well people don't enjoy that all you want, fact remains people STILL play to this day.

Yeah... this is a whole different stew and certainly one that we can spend the next year arguing over. Me personally, I don't believe in this bleak future of mmos that so many of you, apparently, believe in. Yes the game has come along way since EQ and other wow's predecessors. I don't see it as a bad thing though and at the heart of it all, I don't most people do either, even if they are actually saying the opposite.

Here's the thing, when WoW was released, it didn't really do anything revolutionary. It simply built upon features of other games that had before it and packaged it in a neat product. From since, they have continued to build it, improving and adding features, and look at the astonishing success that it has had. It is a common trend to bash wow every step of the way and people say the most outrageous things about it. The truth however is that they all still played it, one time or another, and enjoyed it, and it continues to still be the leading mmo in the market, holding both casual and extremely hard core gamers.

Most of the things that WoW has improved and added to the game are also now recognized are excellent, good features that existing mmos, and new mmos go through great lengths to copy. Swtor certainly has hidden the fact that they copied a number of system and are continuing to do so. In the end it comes down to the question, "is playing the game enjoyable?"

Well... I never had the privilege to play EQ but if it indeed did hold moments like, and I am quoting you, "dying could result in a several hours corpse run" then I'm 100% certain I would have personally stopped playing right then and there, and anyone who says they like that kind of thing is simply lying. That's what mmo evolution comes down to, player experience and enjoyment. Yes, it decreases grinding, makes it more convenient, lowers the time sink, and so on but there is nothing wrong with that. At least long as it is done with restraint and I'm pretty certain companies like Bioware and Blizzard aren't walking around with blinders on. Every decision they make is carefully considered. If they weren't, they games would fall apart like a deck of cards.

Anyway that's my two cents for the topic.

[Lathais]

Naturally, I never said it was a bulletproof idea; there is no guarantees that the player will like the second AC either, in which case (s)he will have to reroll regardless. The important difference is that a player can test both ACs with one roll instead of two. That's a pretty big deal imo.

If (s)he has to re-roll regardless, then why make it a deal at all. The same is true if they don't like the other AC and want an entire different base class. They gotta re-roll. How is it any different if you want to go from Sorc -> Sin at 40 than if you want to go Sorc -> Juggernaut? It's not. Different AC all together. Why should you be able to test any two ACs with one roll? You shouldn't.

Think this is one of those true apples and oranges comparisons. Video games are not guns. They do not pose physical risks to you or people around you. A hobby like firearms is obviously something you have to learn from the ground up, beginning from safety, parts of the weapon, and slowly move into actually holding one, so forth and so on. I know in the army, we went by, I think at least 1-2 weeks without even actually getting touch a gun. We learned the proper way to carry one, hold one, move, clean and disarm one before ever even going to the shooting range. With such items, you have to take precautions.

Video games are much more benign however. In fact, they are the complete opposite, they are designed so that you can pick it up as you go. You don't have to read manuals, safety regulations, and all that nonsense to play and enjoy the game. The amount of time you spend with it, is up to the player. So no, you really cannot be lazy with a game. That kind of concept comes from a world of competitive raiding, which puts a lot of pressure and emphasis on being prepared and performance. This subject is nowhere near it. So I'll say it again, no, you really cannot be lazy with a video game hobby.

I don't see as big a difference as you. It's still a hobby. In the case of hunting the gun is the tool. I have to spend time making sure I like that particular model of the tool, and spend time properly maintaining it. In video games, your char is your tool. You must spend time making sure it is the tool you like the best and keep it properly maintained. Same with any hobby really, unless your hobby is just going somewhere and staring at something for free, you have some sort of tool you use that you must research to be comfortable with and keep maintained in some way. If you decide you do not like the tool, you cannot go back in time and undo your choice to buy/use that tool. You cannot immediately transfer all the experience you have using that tool into experience using another tool. Just because it's a video game it is not automagically different than all other hobbies. Heck, even in other video games that have different options for chars or story paths you can take, if you want to see the other, you gotta start over. It's just the way it is, the way it has been, it ain't broke don't fix it.

Yeah... this is a whole different stew and certainly one that we can spend the next year arguing over. Me personally, I don't believe in this bleak future of mmos that so many of you, apparently, believe in. Yes the game has come along way since EQ and other wow's predecessors. I don't see it as a bad thing though and at the heart of it all, I don't most people do either, even if they are actually saying the opposite.

Here's the thing, when WoW was released, it didn't really do anything revolutionary. It simply built upon features of other games that had before it and packaged it in a neat product. From since, they have continued to build it, improving and adding features, and look at the astonishing success that it has had. It is a common trend to bash wow every step of the way and people say the most outrageous things about it. The truth however is that they all still played it, one time or another, and enjoyed it, and it continues to still be the leading mmo in the market, holding both casual and extremely hard core gamers.

Most of the things that WoW has improved and added to the game are also now recognized are excellent, good features that existing mmos, and new mmos go through great lengths to copy. Swtor certainly has hidden the fact that they copied a number of system and are continuing to do so. In the end it comes down to the question, "is playing the game enjoyable?"

Well... I never had the privilege to play EQ but if it indeed did hold moments like, and I am quoting you, "dying could result in a several hours corpse run" then I'm 100% certain I would have personally stopped playing right then and there, and anyone who says they like that kind of thing is simply lying. That's what mmo evolution comes down to, player experience and enjoyment. Yes, it decreases grinding, makes it more convenient, lowers the time sink, and so on but there is nothing wrong with that. At least long as it is done with restraint and I'm pretty certain companies like Bioware and Blizzard aren't walking around with blinders on. Every decision they make is carefully considered. If they weren't, they games would fall apart like a deck of cards.

Anyway that's my two cents for the topic.

I don't believe in a bleak future for MMOs, but quantity does not equal quality. Namely because of things like BW NOT allowing things like this. They are not allowing it because they have carefully considered it and decided against it. Your words there man. These companies DO carefully make these decisions as you said, in this case, they agree with me, that it should not be allowed. I think you just put the nail in your own arguments coffin rigth there.

[Dannyl]

If (s)he has to re-roll regardless, then why make it a deal at all. The same is true if they don't like the other AC and want an entire different base class. They gotta re-roll. How is it any different if you want to go from Sorc -> Sin at 40 than if you want to go Sorc -> Juggernaut? It's not. Different AC all together. Why should you be able to test any two ACs with one roll? You shouldn't.

Ofc there is a difference. Are you blind? A player, who picks e.g. sniper and later realizes he doesn't like it but might very much enjoy playing an operative. The change in AC lets him cut, possibly, two weeks of leveling and switch to a game play he likes more. Means he does not have to redo everything he spents his evenings doing and can continue with a character he likes. I cannot put it any more simpler than that. I understand you are against the principle and that's fine but if you continue to say it is no difference to just rerolling then you're arguing just for argument's sake.

I don't see as big a difference as you. It's still a hobby. In the case of hunting the gun is the tool. *snip*

I'm sorry but I have to stop you there... Lets get this straight; you don't see the difference in comparing a gun to a video game? Are you serious?

I don't believe in a bleak future for MMOs, but quantity does not equal quality. Namely because of things like BW NOT allowing things like this. They are not allowing it because they have carefully considered it and decided against it. Your words there man. These companies DO carefully make these decisions as you said, in this case, they agree with me, that it should not be allowed. I think you just put the nail in your own arguments coffin rigth there.

You don't believe in a bleak mmo future? You're making contradictory statements then. Here's what you said last time:

"Even if BW holds their ground, the next game will go, hmm, making things easier and making choices matter less worked for them, let's give it a go. 10-20 years down the line, all MMOs are just handing you things."

And yet, now you're coming out, apparently in complete agreement with me that these companies do in fact know what they are doing and making all the right decisions?

No, more is not always better but these companies, like Bioware and Blizzard, are not in the business to make niche games for 10000-100000 players. They want to make games for millions of players and that means catering to a larger audience, one that doesn't just include people who like games like EQ that are like stabbing needles into your eyes, but comfort games that you can approach casually, relaxed, enjoy at the pace that fits you and in quantity that fits you. I think that's the best part of mmos because they hold a wide audience of players and do their best to produce content for everyone. The part that annoys me is when one portion of players, on no other bases than ideology and principle, are against producing solutions and features to the other half, particularly when it hold zero drawbacks on their part.

As for the rest of my quote, you know I did not mean that the companies are infallible. Yes, they make careful decisions but doesn't mean they are always right. What I meant was that they don't just throw stuff at players, simply because they ask for it, as per your fear that if they give into this change then when the next request from players comes in Bioware will simply just go "sure, whatever" and give it to them.

[Lathais]

Ofc there is a difference. Are you blind? A player, who picks e.g. sniper and later realizes he doesn't like it but might very much enjoy playing an operative. The change in AC lets him cut, possibly, two weeks of leveling and switch to a game play he likes more. Means he does not have to redo everything he spents his evenings doing and can continue with a character he likes. I cannot put it any more simpler than that. I understand you are against the principle and that's fine but if you continue to say it is no difference to just rerolling then you're arguing just for argument's sake.


I'm sorry but I have to stop you there... Lets get this straight; you don't see the difference in comparing a gun to a video game? Are you serious?


You don't believe in a bleak mmo future? You're making contradictory statements then. Here's what you said last time:

"Even if BW holds their ground, the next game will go, hmm, making things easier and making choices matter less worked for them, let's give it a go. 10-20 years down the line, all MMOs are just handing you things."

And yet, now you're coming out, apparently in complete agreement with me that these companies do in fact know what they are doing and making all the right decisions?

No, more is not always better but these companies, like Bioware and Blizzard, are not in the business to make niche games for 10000-100000 players. They want to make games for millions of players and that means catering to a larger audience, one that doesn't just include people who like games like EQ that are like stabbing needles into your eyes, but comfort games that you can approach casually, relaxed, enjoy at the pace that fits you and in quantity that fits you. I think that's the best part of mmos because they hold a wide audience of players and do their best to produce content for everyone. The part that annoys me is when one portion of players, on no other bases than ideology and principle, are against producing solutions and features to the other half, particularly when it hold zero drawbacks on their part.

As for the rest of my quote, you know I did not mean that the companies are infallible. Yes, they make careful decisions but doesn't mean they are always right. What I meant was that they don't just throw stuff at players, simply because they ask for it, as per your fear that if they give into this change then when the next request from players comes in Bioware will simply just go "sure, whatever" and give it to them.

Ok, to clarify, i meant if they held thier ground on on AC switch pre-50, not allowing more as we had been discussing. If they hold thier current stand and don't allow any AC switch, we do not start heading down that road. Ok, so I guess I do believe in a bleak future for MMOs, if we keep on catering to casuals. It is one thing to make certain things more accessible to casuals, I'm all for that as I am fairly casual myself, not hardcore. My guild labels itself as Semi-Hardcore and I am one of the lowest geared players and got bitched at a bit for not leveling fast enough for them. Developers cannot just hand you things. YOU made a choice, YOU live with it.

Yes, Hobby is Hobby, whether it is shooting in a range for fun or playing a video game, it is still a hobby. I could apply the same principals to almost any hobby, whether it involves guns or not. A hobby is a hobby. You must put time, effort and research into just about any hobby to get to the fun part. The time and effort you put in make it that much more enjoyable when you get the result you want.

BW plan was for 500,000 to break even, they hoped for more, but were aiming for 500,000. Rift is successful too and has less than that, it was not made for millions and it makes money. I currently can and do enjoy SWTOR and a casual relaxed pace. Even if I had to re-roll, my new toon would be played at a casual relaxed pace and be enjoyable. "The part that annoys me is when one portion of players, on no other bases than ideology and principle, are against producing solutions and features to the other half, particularly when it hold zero drawbacks on their part." In order to have a solution we must have a problem. There is no problem, it is working as intended. Therefore no solution is needed. There are zero drawbacks to leaving it as it is as well. Oh no, a few people who wish they could be hardcore will have to spend an extra couple weeks leveling a toon cause they are unhappy with the decision they made. That is a player problem, not a BW problem. The true casuals I know from my WoW guild would never even consider it an issue to re-roll if they didn't like what they had. Heck, one of the most casual players I know plays a Pally Healer with off-spec DPS. He wanted a tank Pally, he actually re-rolled instead of re-speccing anyway and it is an option in WoW. Now, a couple months later, he has 2 level 85 Paladins in the same server/faction/guild. He was able to approach it casually, relaxed and enjoyed the process.

The thing is, they eventually do. When subs start dropping they look at requested things and add them in in hopes players will come back. Then it becoems a feature the next game decides to use because it worked for the other. Heck, I'm even pretty sure we one day will have AC switches as BW has not said No entirely, they just said no in the near future. Actually, if you research the topic, they had said at one point in beta they were going to put it in, and changed their mind. I guess I sort of do believe in a bleak future after all, but hey, things gotta get worse before they can get better right? I guess it will take a few more years of having things handed to people before people realize it's the effort that makes the reward fun. Then the future will be good again.

[Stormcall]

Ofc there is a difference. Are you blind? A player, who picks e.g. sniper and later realizes he doesn't like it but might very much enjoy playing an operative. The change in AC lets him cut, possibly, two weeks of leveling and switch to a game play he likes more. Means he does not have to redo everything he spents his evenings doing and can continue with a character he likes. I cannot put it any more simpler than that. I understand you are against the principle and that's fine but if you continue to say it is no difference to just rerolling then you're arguing just for argument's sake.

"A player, who picks e.g. warrior and later realizes he doesn't like it but might very much enjoy playing an operative. The change in class lets him cut, possibly, two weeks of leveling and switch to a game play he likes more. Means he does not have to redo everything he spents his evenings doing and can continue with a character he likes."

"A player, who picks e.g. mage and later realizes he doesn't like it but might very much enjoy playing a warlock. The change in class lets him cut, possibly, two weeks of leveling and switch to a game play he likes more. Means he does not have to redo everything he spents his evenings doing and can continue with a character he likes."

"A player, who picks e.g. mesmer and later realizes he doesn't like it but might very much enjoy playing a ranger. The change in class lets him cut, possibly, two weeks of leveling and switch to a game play he likes more. Means he does not have to redo everything he spents his evenings doing and can continue with a character he likes."

This is what you're saying, you understand that, right?

[Lathais]

I'm sorry but I have to stop you there... Lets get this straight; you don't see the difference in comparing a gun to a video game? Are you serious?

I wanted to touch on this a little more. I never said I do not see a difference, I said I do not see as much of a difference as you. I will use an example of a good friend of mine who goes hunting with his Dad every weekend. He really really enjoys coming home with a bunch of meat. He enjoys the anticipation of sitting there waiting for the perfect moment to pull the trigger. I play games online with my friends every week. I really enjoy having that level 50 with all purples. I enjoy the anticipation of watching the bosses health drop and seeing if he dropped my piece. My friend considers cleaning the deer and skinning it and cleaning the gun a chore, that is part of the process he enjoys. I consider leveling a chore that is part of the process I enjoy. I am not saying guns=video games. I am saying there are similarities in the hobbies of hunting and video games and any other hobby really. Either way, it is the effort behind the task that makes the reward enjoyable. I could have, and probably should have, said fishing. You gotta do maintenance on your rod or it breaks. You gotta work on your boat to keep it running well to be able to take it out on the ocean. Same principal. Just because I said guns you are throwing it out the window as an argument. Again though, ANY hobby is the same, I just happened to have a customer in today that was talking about his hunting trip so that was at the top of my head.

[Ashardis]

think of AC respeccing as a mage changing 2 lock, or rogue 2 kitty


i'm personally glad they wont add it

[Koalachan]

Think this is one of those true apples and oranges comparisons. Video games are not guns. They do not pose physical risks to you or people around you.

http://www.rpgownage.com/2011/03/697/

[Ateup]

Is there any other game that allows you to switch between classes? I don't know of one.

When thinking about what makes a class unique, I can think of weapons/armor, spells/abilities, and resource mechanics. The TOR ACs have their own spells and armor/weapons. It's just the class resource pool that doesn't change much from AC to AC.

[Redriot]

If you can spec between the different advance classes (Me going from my Marauder to a Jugg to tank) then I want to be able to switch between all classes (me going from my Marauder to a Merc because I want to be ranged for a day). It makes the same amount of sense I believe.

[Nemrod]

If playing a computer game is too much work for you (levelling a Powertech and a Merc for example if you cannot make up your mind) maybe you should pull the plug on your hobby.

[THoyt]

Basically, in WoW I have an option with my main (priest) to utilise all three available specs [...]

You have the option to do so, but you can't switch from a Priest to a Warrior and have melee and tanking options available as well on a single character... which is what you're asking for. Bioware isn't going to implement Advanced Class dual-specs because, you would be switching classes. A Guardian and a Sentinel are two different classes. Just like in Warcraft, if you're playing a priest and want to tank, you have to level another character.

[VincentWolf]

Good. They should never allow people to switch advanced specs.

[h4rr0d]

It's fair enough. I must admit I'd love to try the other AC (sorcerer and gunslinger) of my characters, and I don't really want to level another char, even less the same class story. But It makes sense, and dual spec is all I'm asking for.
If I ever wanted to swap between classes again, I would just renew my Rift subscription. The soul system there is pretty darn epic, but it just doesn't fit to this game.