Is Recount needed for TOR?

**Qwell** · 2012-02-17, 05:16 PM

I'm well aware of the argument for and against it.

FOR: it helps identify problems in rotations, target focus, issues with CC, and gives a general benchmark on performance; it can help show players exactly what is working and exactly who needs some help, sans the anecdotes or opinions--numbers rarely lie.

AGAINST: it's used as a crutch and becomes applicable to any/all situations, warranted or not, it can become a meta-race that all players are unwittingly now a part of, it can alienate and aggrandize a community and/or particular players, it requires 3rd party communication (RE: addons), potentially creates a "do or fail" baseline attitude within the community

I wonder then, if/when this is implemented, there would be a way to mitigate the negative aspects and exemplify the positive ones. Perhaps instead of simply 1:1 damage output, there could be a way to filter the numbers to achieve more conceptual conclusions, like a simple tug-o-war bar that shows how well your party is doing against the boss. Too far to the left (in the red) means danger will robinson, push to the right (green) and y'all are kickin ass. perhaps something along those lines might give an idea of how the tide of battle is going, without watching each decimal place change with numbers. not to say we should/wouldn't have that option, it's just straight numbers and formula can be esoteric to the unattuned player. any ideas?

(sub question, would you support/enjoy/hate an in battle morale system, with perhaps buffs/debuffs, new mechanics SEPERATE from bosses, etc when your ops does well/bad?)

**dabs** · 2012-02-17, 05:17 PM

no, it just supports elitism

**Qwell** · 2012-02-17, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by dabs

no, it just supports elitism

even read the post? lol

**jackofwind** · 2012-02-17, 05:20 PM

All mmo's need the ability to track the output of players if they are going to supply competitive end-game PvE.

That output tracking isn't limited to raw damage or healing, and in a perfrect world would include things such as fight mechanics and mitigation, etc.

**Karshtakavaar** · 2012-02-17, 05:22 PM

While I'm all for people who want to be "the best that they can be" I'm actually against the introduction of a Recount-esque add-on for TOR. Give the number crunchers and theory crafters the tools to do that sort of stuff, just don't make it something that gives everyone real-time data on what they are doing, it just pisses them off when they're told they're doing bad, because they are being compared to some seudo-perfect top performing computer (read: player in fully-optomized gear as per the theory crafters).

It would do more to damage the community this game is developing than to improve anything.

**Darsithis** · 2012-02-17, 05:23 PM

I really wouldn't mind having that, and logs. One of the ways I improve myself is by being able to compare my damage done to specific mobs, damage taken, and buff durations and the like to others on our raid team, or simply to general suggested amounts. Eventually I see it as being a necessity.

---------- Post added 2012-02-17 at 11:24 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Karshtakavaar

While I'm all for people who want to be "the best that they can be" I'm actually against the introduction of a Recount-esque add-on for TOR. Give the number crunchers and theory crafters the tools to do that sort of stuff, just don't make it something that gives everyone real-time data on what they are doing, it just pisses them off when they're told they're doing bad, because they are being compared to some seudo-perfect top performing computer (read: player in fully-optomized gear as per the theory crafters).

It would do more to damage the community this game is developing than to improve anything.

And on the flip side - they offer raid leaders a chance to see where people are underperforming and affecting the raid, giving them a chance to identify the issue, bring it up to the player, and let them fix it.

**Luminair** · 2012-02-17, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by dabs

no, it just supports elitism

Originally Posted by dabs

I play in a world top 520 guild. You dont. Deal with it.

pot kettle etc

**Crashdummy** · 2012-02-17, 05:26 PM

Recount is not nececsary but it would be useefull.

Combat log though, is absolutely necesary if they want end game raiding to become serious.

The game really needs combat log and better UI customization (especially in terms of action bars).

Some nice things after those would be mouseover macros, target of target targetting, etc.

Also, recount already shows other things and not just damage done, like damage taken, interrupts, cc breaks, etc. Its a lie that recount doesnt let you know how played well and who dont. And for those that use it just to brag, there is already an option of /ignore.

I dont think the morale system would be a good idea, a raid group can be good because they are perfect execution machines or because they adapt fast to mistakes. Both approachs can be groups composed of good players.

**namelessone** · 2012-02-17, 05:27 PM

How would I be able to assess my performance without recount? How can I optimize my game, if I can't see the results of my actions? How can I compare the stat allocation, if I can't see what actually changes with different stats? Basically, what's the point of having over 9000 different abilities, if the only visible difference between them is animation?

**bhearther** · 2012-02-17, 05:27 PM

I dont think its elitist to expect people to perform to a minimum, I honestly dont know a single person who is underperforming that wouldnt like to (on some level) perform better.

At the same time I liked one of their responses about not having a damage meter on launch.
"If things are getting killed, and not enraging, you are doing enough DPS, if things are not getting killed, or enraging, you need to do more" the only downside to not knowing your DPS is that you dont know WHO needs to do more, so you can not work with people to get them up to snuff. sometimes its as easy as not clipping dots, or not using a specific spell because another spell is better to use your GCD or resources on.

I dont see that being elitist

**Qwell** · 2012-02-17, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Darsithis

I really wouldn't mind having that, and logs. One of the ways I improve myself is by being able to compare my damage done to specific mobs, damage taken, and buff durations and the like to others on our raid team, or simply to general suggested amounts. Eventually I see it as being a necessity.

---------- Post added 2012-02-17 at 11:24 AM ----------

And on the flip side - they offer raid leaders a chance to see where people are underperforming and affecting the raid, giving them a chance to identify the issue, bring it up to the player, and let them fix it.

i would tend to agree with you, but i'm torn on both sides. i get both arguments, and both are valid in my eyes. it's a tough position, as experience and history influences me too much.

---------- Post added 2012-02-17 at 05:30 PM ----------

Originally Posted by bhearther

I dont think its elitist to expect people to perform to a minimum, I honestly dont know a single person who is underperforming that wouldnt like to (on some level) perform better.

At the same time I liked one of their responses about not having a damage meter on launch.
"If things are getting killed, and not enraging, you are doing enough DPS, if things are not getting killed, or enraging, you need to do more" the only downside to not knowing your DPS is that you dont know WHO needs to do more, so you can not work with people to get them up to snuff. sometimes its as easy as not clipping dots, or not using a specific spell because another spell is better to use your GCD or resources on.

I dont see that being elitist

well said, agreed

**Crashdummy** · 2012-02-17, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Karshtakavaar

While I'm all for people who want to be "the best that they can be" I'm actually against the introduction of a Recount-esque add-on for TOR. Give the number crunchers and theory crafters the tools to do that sort of stuff, just don't make it something that gives everyone real-time data on what they are doing, it just pisses them off when they're told they're doing bad, because they are being compared to some seudo-perfect top performing computer (read: player in fully-optomized gear as per the theory crafters).

It would do more to damage the community this game is developing than to improve anything.

There isnt a better system to improve a rotation than a target dummy and a real time tool telling how you are doing. Again, there is already a /ignore for those that use it in a bad way.

**Ghosty** · 2012-02-17, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by dabs

no, it just supports elitism

Not having a combat log/recount supports bad play.

See what I did thar?!

I guess you don't like the score board popping up at the end of a WZ either.

I would like to see some sort of feed back on my performance and that of the members of my Op group so we can figure out where we need to improve. I want to know if moving talents points from talent "X" to talent "Y" is better. Currently there is no feedback to tell you anything your character is doing, other than some numbers that fly up over your target's head.

**Crowe** · 2012-02-17, 05:34 PM

Considering that Bioware gives just about every HM/NM boss a pretty tight Enrage timer to make it challenging some sort of damage benchmark is certainly needed.

They can't make encounters that tight and then give us no tools to analyze performance issues. It's just stupid.

I'd be fine with WWS Logs and don't necessarily need an ingame damage-meter. But we NEED some sort of benchmarking tool.

**bhearther** · 2012-02-17, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Karshtakavaar

While I'm all for people who want to be "the best that they can be" I'm actually against the introduction of a Recount-esque add-on for TOR. Give the number crunchers and theory crafters the tools to do that sort of stuff, just don't make it something that gives everyone real-time data on what they are doing, it just pisses them off when they're told they're doing bad, because they are being compared to some seudo-perfect top performing computer (read: player in fully-optomized gear as per the theory crafters).

It would do more to damage the community this game is developing than to improve anything.

as a guild though, you expect your undergeared people to underperform, and your perfectly geared people to perform on top. with or without the meters, you know that the guy who logs on for Ops and then logs out for the rest of the week is going to do LESS overall (assuming they are using the same rotation as the geared out people)

With that being said if you are having DPS problems, you cant always blame the undergeared guy. sometimes they will out perform the overgeared because of they are just better at managing their rotations/cooldowns/resources (assuming classes are the same, and gear is the only difference outside of those things)

Like I said in my other post, I dont use damage meters to tell people they are bad. if someone in my guild is far below another player of equal spec and gear we will work with them to get their numbers where they should be. I might not be the normal guild leader in doing that, but I would rather get my friends where they need to be, than recruit someone new to take their spot. I play these games to have fun with friends.

**Darsithis** · 2012-02-17, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by Crowe

They can't make encounters that tight and then give us no tools to analyze performance issues. It's just stupid.

That's exactly how I feel - it's like being told to build something but not being given any schematics to work off of. You could have someone totally failing at mechanics, still get through it, and let them continue on thinking they're the bomb when they're just...bombing.

**dabs** · 2012-02-17, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by Ghosty

Not having a combat log/recount supports bad play.

See what I did thar?!

I guess you don't like the score board popping up at the end of a WZ either.

I would like to see some sort of feed back on my performance and that of the members of my Op group so we can figure out where we need to improve. I want to know if moving talents points from talent "X" to talent "Y" is better. Currently there is no feedback to tell you anything your character is doing, other than some numbers that fly up over your target's head.

there is no such thing as "bad" play - each playstyle is equally valid

if it bothers you so much, then you really should go out more

**Bubalus** · 2012-02-17, 05:43 PM

it should perhaps have meters for self only so you can check your own performance instead of using it as a epeen inflation device.

**Darsithis** · 2012-02-17, 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by dabs

there is no such thing as "bad" play - each playstyle is equally valid

if it bothers you so much, then you really should go out more

I'm not sure how you can say that - while you can mix and match your abilities, you still have to output a certain amount of dps (or threat, in the case of my Jedi Shadow), in order to perform your role. If I'm not rotating my cooldowns correctly, I die, and that's because I was not playing well. I was playing badly. If I'm not putting out the threat I should be, then I'm not playing right. Things like Recount or logs can show uptime on buffs or damage done by abilities so I can analyze where I'm going wrong.

**Sephiracle** · 2012-02-17, 05:45 PM

It's not really possible to provide a meter like Recount without inviting the elitism that comes from it. It's a double edged sword, provides explanations for failures while also bringing out the worst in some people.

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