Is Recount needed for TOR?

[Profyrion]

Where does it materialize, then? I could maybe try to watch the Assassin on the other side of the boss... wait, is the left-right lightsaber swing Thrash? Or is that the spinning one? Wait, maybe it's the up-down one.... AHHHH can't tell if he's doing his rotation right! (Now compound that by having to watch at least 6 more people's animations to know what they're doing, while performing your own role).

Or did you mean "bad behavior" as in, annoying in chat? Yes, some people are like that. And many of them, once you get into the fight, perform perfectly.

I shouldn't have to make a list for you. It should be fairly obvious if you've done any raiding. Bad play involves more than putting up sub-standard numbers on a DPS meter, like dying repeatedly to simple mechanics, or failing to heal yourself (tunnel vision), or switching targets too slowly (or not at all), etc... All of which can be observed without the aid of an addon if you're paying attention to your surroundings -- which you probably are, because it's a core component of raiding.

I meant "bad" in the context of the post I was replying to, which I quoted. Reference the quote if you need to.

[belfpala]

I shouldn't have to make a list for you. It should be fairly obvious if you've done any raiding. Bad play involves more than putting up sub-standard numbers on a DPS meter, like dying repeatedly to simple mechanics, or failing to heal yourself (tunnel vision), or switching targets too slowly (or not at all), etc...

But I gave an example, already. I can't watch 7 (or 15) other people to see what they're doing or not doing, and even if I could, I don't know the animations for every ability for every class. Hell, I can't even remember Assassin animations, and that's my main.

As was said above, lack of a combat log is the main issue. Something like Recount just organizes a combat log in a more digestible form. Then you can look at it when you're not "distracted" by doing your job to figure out what went wrong. Oh, hey, Tank died... he wasn't getting heals for about 10 seconds before he died. Why? Oh, healer died first. Why? Oh, he didn't move out of something. Hey, healer, move out of that next time. Hey, tank, if you notice you're not getting heals, use a couple cooldowns.

I know all of that can be figured out without any addons or even a combat log... IF people are honest. And they often aren't. It just streamlines the process if the ops leader has the proof right there on the screen.

[Xecks]

But I gave an example, already. I can't watch 7 (or 15) other people to see what they're doing or not doing, and even if I could, I don't know the animations for every ability for every class. Hell, I can't even remember Assassin animations, and that's my main.

As was said above, lack of a combat log is the main issue. Something like Recount just organizes a combat log in a more digestible form. Then you can look at it when you're not "distracted" by doing your job to figure out what went wrong. Oh, hey, Tank died... he wasn't getting heals for about 10 seconds before he died. Why? Oh, healer died first. Why? Oh, he didn't move out of something. Hey, healer, move out of that next time. Hey, tank, if you notice you're not getting heals, use a couple cooldowns.

I know all of that can be figured out without any addons or even a combat log... IF people are honest. And they often aren't. It just streamlines the process if the ops leader has the proof right there on the screen.

exactly. i, as a raidleader, do not have time to watch 7-15 other people play as well as play my own role and raid lead at the same time. a full meter like recount which includes dmg done healing interrupts and everything else is a godsend. it makes it more fluid when it comes to assessing things and helps in real time decisions and what not.

[Ankram]

Unfortunately the addon would not be able to tell how much of the fight the player was actually helping. That's a feature with a great potential. I mean just take wow: "I didn't suck, i did 30k dps." Well you sucked since you ignored all mechanics, didn't interrupt or anything. But players fail to see that when they see their high dps. Who would ever choose the 30k dps guy with no skills what so ever rather than the 20k dps guy actually helping the group?.

This scenario always arises, but i would rather have the guy that does 30k and avoids shit while preforming his tasks. NEVER settle. There are very few people that can pull super top numbers but can't do anything else if they really wanted to. It's a non point argument against logs.

[Mormolyce]

There is no sense making a game inconvenient to try to offset bad behaviour by players. Jerks will be jerks regardless.

[maky13]

You're assuming that people are always knowledgable about their class. But there's plenty of people that lack basic understanding of how their class works. Or don't bother reading theorycrafting sites and doing some calculations themselves.
And there's no way I'm going to find out as a raidleader. I can onnly encourage people to look up their class on Sithwarrior.com. But short of quizzing everybody about their spec, I can't know if the actually heeded my advice. For all I know they could be stand behind a boss, spamming their free attack.

So while you're right that going from a "good" to a "perfect" rotation will just give you 5-10% (which already is a more massive number than you might realise) going from a "bad" to a "good" rotation will be worth far more.

I agree. But that`s what is usually asked in a guild application - the "clueless" people will be spotted. Someone who already gives a bit of detail about how they play is definetly not clueless.
10% is a bit much, I think that`s a pretty extreme amount. 5% is more normal; however, pure class balance difference is also along the lines of 5%, so how do you "fix" that then? If they have to tune encounters to that 5%?

I want to clarify my point a bit. The people who don`t peform probably won`t perform anyways. The jerks and the people acting like douchebags (most of the time without any reason) will act so anyways.
I simply believe that at this stage of the game things don`t need to be perfectly clear. In a team, you will chat with another player, regardless of meters, and you will brainstorm ideas. In some cases, you won`t know who is right (with 100% accuracy), but this simply gives more creativity. The enrages don`t seem to be THAT tight right now so you need perfect min-maxing, and I don`t like the idea of going there; because class balance will always be a factor, which is around the same offset as a perfect rotation compared to a good one. Where do you draw the line?

[Zao]

And what do you do if that screening is missing? ie in a pug? Or some semi-casual guild that's not interested in doing elaborate screenings? Or if people want it as a tool for self improvement?

To give a reallife example: I recently had to respec from being a healer to DPS for a few nights because we were lacking a DPS. So I got myself some gear through FPs, looked up an apprpriate spec and rotation on SW and proceeded to do KP Ni.
We wiped 4 times in Bonethrasher due to the enrage with always something between 5-10% missing. Nobody died, we kept the adds controlled and nobody was knocked into the acid.
So: Was it my fault? Possible. But I can't know for sure. As far as I know I did everything right. But it's still very much possible that my preparations did not make up for my lack of training/skill.
On the other hand we had a new DPS with us, who went into HMs with us and performed well, ie didn't do stupid stuff. But it's possible that his lack of DPS simply wasn't noticed in the lower mode, because we can kill most of it easily (bugged fights aside).


I'm also not sure what mode you're referring to with enrage timers not being tight. On normal and most of the HMs I'd agree with you. But some of the Nightmare fights have very tight timers that require everyone to be in top shape.
And yes: Class balance will probably turn out to be a much larger factor than player skill. But having or not having a parser doesn't change that. It only makes it more obvious.

[viciouss]

Zao's reasoning is the reason I support damage addons. If we are wiping one something I would like to know why but I see the downside where the morons have to spam it and start down talking someone not doing the best dps but enough to clear the area.

[Qwell]

Zao's reasoning is the reason I support damage addons. If we are wiping one something I would like to know why but I see the downside where the morons have to spam it and start down talking someone not doing the best dps but enough to clear the area.

more and more i'm liking the personal recount, or ops only recount. this would put a nice buffer against flailing egos and would still give detailed information on an encounter.

GI Joe said it best...

[Tehfred]

more and more i'm liking the personal recount, or ops only recount. this would put a nice buffer against flailing egos and would still give detailed information on an encounter.

GI Joe said it best...

Honestly I don't understand the aggression towards meter whores. They make themselves look stupid. It doesn't hinder or inconvenience you in any way, unless YOUR ego is hurt. So what's the point of personal stats only?

Personally I'm never of the opinion that limiting usage of a tool to prevent misuse is a good thing, unless it's a life-or-death situation.

[Qwell]

Honestly I don't understand the aggression towards meter whores. They make themselves look stupid. It doesn't hinder or inconvenience you in any way, unless YOUR ego is hurt. So what's the point of personal stats only?

not personal stats, as in you're the only one being recorded, but a personal 'recount'--it's pretty much what recount is sans the ability to share, unless as a group/ops leader

[Tehfred]

not personal stats, as in you're the only one being recorded, but a personal 'recount'--it's pretty much what recount is sans the ability to share, unless as a group/ops leader

I understand that. I was referring to a personal damage meter in the same way you are. What I don't understand is what's wrong with letting meter whores be meter whores? If someone links their DPS flaunting it, I take it as a challenge, not an insult. If you get removed from a group for doing low dps, then that's YOUR fault, not theirs.

[Qwell]

If you get removed from a group for doing low dps, then that's YOUR fault, not theirs.

well that's always debatable; was the tank not utilizing proper CD's, healer being lazy, everyone standing in fire? if it IS a straight DPS problem, the danger of someone using a hammer as a weapon increases; that is to say, the tool of recount is used to minimize someone rather than raising them to your level. really, a deeper problem of the ability to TEACH. which, as we all know, is really a rare trait in most people.

i get what you're trying to say, the subtext to me at least is: why more regulation? in other words, why take away something that can be used at a players discretion? tough to argue, but that's where BW can come in and say, with a closed hand, how they want the game to form. force a behavior of tactful, mindful gamers, or let that naturally occur? well so far, naturally is losing it seems...

[Deathcries]

I absolutely believe that SWTOR needs recount/logs. I want to see what people are doing so if they're lacking in a department compared to other players with the same gear, and what not. I can help them and try to show them what they're doing wrong. People who say they don't want it obviously don't want to try or they sucked at other mmo's and had help (Which I am more then happy to show people/help people, if they want to do better) and they just didn't want to take the RL's advice.

This game absolutely needs recount

---------- Post added 2012-02-23 at 02:00 AM ----------

I understand that. I was referring to a personal damage meter in the same way you are. What I don't understand is what's wrong with letting meter whores be meter whores? If someone links their DPS flaunting it, I take it as a challenge, not an insult. If you get removed from a group for doing low dps, then that's YOUR fault, not theirs.

QFT couldn't have said it any better.

[invader]

you cant play an MMO and NOT have some kind of recount thing and logs.. gear,stats,numbers,dps,healing,kills,deaths,wtf howd we wipe? means nothing without being able to track it to see whats what..
its like "yey i won a new weapon", "is it better than your old one?", "fuck knows but yey i won a new weapon"
EVERY MMO NEEDS LOGS AND RECOUNT (well skada, recounts shit)
not only that but it gives you another reason to do that lil bit better, or just to pwn meters ;p. or whatever.

[Tyrven]

No. Leave the damage meters out of TOR. This will only lead to elitists and certain classes being ridiculed. Content is being downed, let it be.

Well right now without it ppl are left to guess and hope that they or ppl in their groups are doing the right thing. Sure you can make some smart choices about spec and rotatins but without the benefit of combat logs and some sort of meter like recount nobody really knows. Mix in the fact the a new breed of bad players that dont understand that interupts and avoiding dmg is just as if not more important then dmg done and this is going to have many lasting effects on current players.

[soulcrusher]

you cant play an MMO and NOT have some kind of recount thing and logs.. gear,stats,numbers,dps,healing,kills,deaths,wtf howd we wipe? means nothing without being able to track it to see whats what..
its like "yey i won a new weapon", "is it better than your old one?", "fuck knows but yey i won a new weapon"
EVERY MMO NEEDS LOGS AND RECOUNT (well skada, recounts shit)
not only that but it gives you another reason to do that lil bit better, or just to pwn meters ;p. or whatever.

no you dont and plenty of games before wow managed this without a problem.

[Qwell]

no you dont and plenty of games before wow managed this without a problem.

hell, FFXI is STILL going strong without such a tool, and it's about as accessible as quantum physics.

but then again, that's a menu driven game rather than a hotkey archetype. i mean, how many hotkey type games DON't have the ability to see more detailed battle logs? (which is essentially what a recount is). i think "need" is a strong word in many of these extraneous-tools-arguments; most can be argued heavily (ahem, this thread) and lends itself to, more often than not, a stalemate of points and then simple "corner hugging" occurs--which is to say, personal opinion dominates over empirical data or evidence.

it's a loaded topic for sure.

[Koalachan]

Recount alone has been downloaded over 3 million times from the Curse Client. Player desire for it is obvious.

3 million downloads, 10 million players. That means only 30% are running recount. Yup, certainly sounds like the majority there say they need recount. That's not even counting the people who stopped playing, but is counting the people who stopped playing but downloaded it.

[Darsithis]

3 million downloads, 10 million players. That means only 30% are running recount. Yup, certainly sounds like the majority there say they need recount. That's not even counting the people who stopped playing, but is counting the people who stopped playing but downloaded it.

There are more programs than just Recount. Skada, for instance, and some UI's have damage meters built in.

Like I've said a few times, I think it's necessary, and Zao nailed the reason why:

So: Was it my fault? Possible. But I can't know for sure.